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  #1  
Old 03-17-17, 10:32 AM
SeeYaSometime SeeYaSometime is offline
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NEDAB "simplifies" post season bracketing

They are eliminating coaches choosing their teams spot in the bracket. Looks like they are going to straight 1-16, 2-15 placement after byes. The article does not say what prompted the move. Thoughts.



http://highschoolsports.cleveland.co...eding-process/
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  #2  
Old 03-17-17, 11:20 AM
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The Butler The Butler is offline
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Having a higher seed should come with some perks. Whether it be choosing to play a 1st round game when a bye is available or putting your 3rd seed and placing them in the half of the bracket with the #1.
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Old 03-17-17, 11:35 AM
afwpatfire afwpatfire is offline
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At this point, I agree with this change. The reward is you get a bye if you are the higher seed (I know, not much of a reward).

It also gives a team a chance to win a tourney game. No need for Jackson to play Perry and Garfield back to back, let them play with Jackson facing the winner. Just an example.
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  #4  
Old 03-17-17, 12:05 PM
tcgobucks tcgobucks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afwpatfire View Post
At this point, I agree with this change. The reward is you get a bye if you are the higher seed (I know, not much of a reward).

It also gives a team a chance to win a tourney game. No need for Jackson to play Perry and Garfield back to back, let them play with Jackson facing the winner. Just an example.
I guess I don't see the need to change....hoping NW Ohio doesn't do it. It won't change much....in a 16 team district, it's awfully likely that 16 will still play 1 in the opening round....so it's not like #16 is going to benefit. Why not let the teams who earned the higher seeds decide who they'll play...they've earned it. Again, don't see it making a huge difference, but in some cases, where a particular team created matchup problems or maybe a team has already played someone twice in league play they would pick a different line. Not sure why they feel the need to make it a straight #1-16 bracket
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  #5  
Old 03-17-17, 12:26 PM
y2h y2h is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afwpatfire View Post
At this point, I agree with this change. The reward is you get a bye if you are the higher seed (I know, not much of a reward).

It also gives a team a chance to win a tourney game. No need for Jackson to play Perry and Garfield back to back, let them play with Jackson facing the winner. Just an example.
I agree. That example is spot on. How does Jackson drilling Perry AND Garfield help anybody?

Either do it this way or go to a qualification like football.
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  #6  
Old 03-17-17, 12:43 PM
tndog tndog is offline
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Could lead to more issues with people not voting how they should and with this set-up, there really is no fallback for teams to put themselves in a position to combat that
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  #7  
Old 03-17-17, 12:56 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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The best team should win the district. This makes it a little more fair to everyone. Having a great #1 seed and the #2,#3,#4,#5, and #6 all going to the bottom of the bracket just makes it that much easier for the #1 seed and far tougher for the #2 seed.

Also, if you have 12 teams, the best 8 teams should be playing in the second round. The top 4 teams playing in the 3rd round and the top 2 teams playing in the final.

Under the old system, if the #1 team took a bye, it was usually the #11 playing the #12 team for the right to move on to play #1 in the second round. This didn't make much sense. Far better teams were losing in the first round and some of the weakest teams were making the second round. This will take care of that.

The reality is that this will lead to fewer beatdowns and an extra week of practice for the middle seeds who will now have a chance to win a game.
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  #8  
Old 03-17-17, 01:08 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Also, if you have 12 teams, the best 8 teams should be playing in the second round. The top 4 teams playing in the 3rd round and the top 2 teams playing in the final.
If that's what the ultimate goal is, just have the top 2 seeds be the only 2 teams to make it to the tournament and quit wasting time with the inferior teams. I don't think that's what we want to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
The reality is that this will lead to fewer beatdowns and an extra week of practice for the middle seeds who will now have a chance to win a game.
And the higher seeds may be forced to go a week without a game. That's not necessarily fair.
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  #9  
Old 03-17-17, 01:37 PM
thePITman thePITman is offline
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So basically there is no need to have the seeding meetings anymore where coaches get together, choose their spot on the bracket, and gather papers. All voting is done online, so seeding will be done online (automatically), as well, and they'll just mail or email the papers and tickets for each school.
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  #10  
Old 03-17-17, 01:42 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thePITman View Post
So basically there is no need to have the seeding meetings anymore where coaches get together, choose their spot on the bracket, and gather papers. All voting is done online, so seeding will be done online (automatically), as well, and they'll just mail or email the papers and tickets for each school.
According to the NEDAB announcement -

"The Sunday district draw meeting is now eliminated. However, there will still be a meeting for the
home site managers to meet with their district tournament manager to review tournament
responsibilities."
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  #11  
Old 03-17-17, 01:44 PM
bsee54321 bsee54321 is offline
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Southeast District has been doing for about 5 years. It eliminates a seeding meeting and the District can just posted the brackets based on how the seeding turns out.
Southeast District uses neutral site for all basketballs game however in baseball, volleyball and softball the higher seeds host in the Sectional rounds goes to neutral site for District Play.
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  #12  
Old 03-17-17, 01:54 PM
tndog tndog is offline
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Disagree that the "best team" should win theory.
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  #13  
Old 03-17-17, 02:43 PM
tcgobucks tcgobucks is offline
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I don't agree with it being a problem that #1 plays the the winner of the 11 and 12 seeds. At least in that scenario, one of those 2 gets a chance to get a tourney win, which won't happen in the new plan. The new system will make the first round games 5-12, 6-11, 7-10 and 8-9.....meaning it's pretty likely that neither 11 or 12 gets a win. In the case mentioned earlier the only reason that 11 and 12 both lost is because Jackson didn't take a bye
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  #14  
Old 03-17-17, 02:55 PM
PortageCountySports PortageCountySports is offline
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Why are you so worried about the 11 or 12 seed getting a win in the tournament. They don't deserve to be there anyway. The 5 and 6 seed deserve to move past the first round based on their regular season performance. Caring about the 11 and 12 seed getting a chance to get a win falls under the idea of "everyone gets a trophy". If you want to win a a tournament game earn a better seed and win a game.
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  #15  
Old 03-17-17, 02:57 PM
Look Ma No Hands Look Ma No Hands is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
And the higher seeds may be forced to go a week without a game. That's not necessarily fair.
I agree. If a team HAS to take a bye, they could get somewhat stale that week. Meanwhile, the team they end up playing already has a tourney win under their belt and are feeling good about themselves. The team with the bye will be going through their first-game tourney jitters while the team they are playing has already gotten rid of those.

Maybe the #1 v #12 seed that you guys discuss is not the real discussion. The bye doesn't matter there. Maybe its the #3 vs the #6 or the #4 vs the #5 when the lower seed has the advantage of having a tourney game under their belt and the difference in team strength isn't as much. This might clearly favor the #5 and #6 seeds.

Years back, before they had 64 teams (68), the NCAA did NCAA seeding and higher seeds got byes. That was a complaint of those higher seeds back then. NCAA seeding now, where no one gets a bye, doesn't yield an extra-game advantage.
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  #16  
Old 03-17-17, 03:02 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
If that's what the ultimate goal is, just have the top 2 seeds be the only 2 teams to make it to the tournament and quit wasting time with the inferior teams. I don't think that's what we want to do.
I didn't say the seeding was accurate, just that the better teams should move on. When a #11 plays a #12 in the first round, the odds are the winner is not one of the best 8 teams. They are only playing against each other because they will be playing the #1 seed next.

Middle seeds are staying away from the top seed early on hoping they can get to the finals. This causes uneven brackets and some low level games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
And the higher seeds may be forced to go a week without a game. That's not necessarily fair.
You get a home game, that is enough of an advantage to overcome a possible week off.

IMO, I'm OK with letting the teams pick their spot on the bracket but I would make one significant change. The location on the bracket determines who gets the home game. If you want to play a play-in game, you will be on the road the next game no matter what your seed is. Then the coaches would have to make a tougher decision. Home game first round and road game in the second round -or- take a bye and host second round game.
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  #17  
Old 03-17-17, 03:09 PM
bsee54321 bsee54321 is offline
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In the Northeast District the higher seeds host in the Sectional rounds. So if a 1-4 seeded teams does get a bye their 1st game would be a home game- that would be an advantage over the lower seed.
However, I do think being a 1, 2 ,3 or 4 seed if you do not want to have a bye and your bracket offers a bye you should be able to have the choice. There no perfect system however it is done.
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  #18  
Old 03-17-17, 04:05 PM
afwpatfire afwpatfire is offline
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To clarify for some. The top seeds will not be facing the lowest seed in their first game unless it is a complete 16 team bracket, which in the NE none are.

So let's take Canton (12 teams).
Top four seeds will get byes. Then 5v12, 6v11, 7v10, and 8v9. This will then be laid out just like the NCAA bracket. So this year the bracket would have looked like this, probably the same result, but some different matchups.
(1) Jackson
(8)Dover vs (9)Glenoak

(4)Copley
(5)Washington vs (12)Garfield

(3)Wooster
(6)McKinley vs (11)Perry

(2)Hoover
(7)Green vs (10)Barberton

Probably the same outcome, as I said above, but it just makes more sense to me.

I've also thought about someone throwing the seeding. I think it's extremely unlikely unless there is collusion among a high number of teams.
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  #19  
Old 03-17-17, 04:21 PM
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As a whole, I don't like this power move by the NEDAB. I don't mind this from the perspective of a little bit less extreme beat downs in early rounds. And even I can get it from the perspective of letting the lower seeds have a shot at winning a game.

If the 1 seed is so much stronger than 2, 3, and 4 - I have no problem with teams avoiding that top seed. IMO, they earned that draw. Plus the vote doesn't always reflect what the coaches really think. Some coaches will vote out of spite or league allegiance. Sometimes the #2 seed really ends up getting treated like a #1 when the draw takes place. This happened to Mentor this year at their district. I like the coaches draw because that is when we find out what they REALLY think...who they want to avoid.

I have disliked that football just slots teams in by harbin. I would love it if football took the basketball approach. In an eight team region, place seeds 5, 6, 7, and 8 in different games. Let the 1 seed choose first who they want to play. Then let 2, 3, and finally the 4 seed is stuck with whomever is left. That would give being the 1 seed a true advantage.
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  #20  
Old 03-17-17, 05:11 PM
tcgobucks tcgobucks is offline
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I don't think I've ever seen a 1-seed have the entire side of the bracket to themselves....especially in a 12 team district. Even if the 1 doesn't take a bye, you can be sure that 2 and 3 will go in the other half, and likely both take byes. I don't see a scenario where either 4 or 5 (or both) won't take the other 2 available byes....even if it means being in the half of the bracket with the 1 seed.
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  #21  
Old 03-17-17, 07:48 PM
Carnac the Magnifice Carnac the Magnifice is offline
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It happens quite often. I know at the Euclid district between 2010 and 2013, the best seed on the side with the #1 seed was a 6 seed. It is be even more prevalent in smaller divisions where teams want to avoid schools like VASJ, or SVSM. It is very common for the #2,3,and 4 seeds to go opposite the #1 seed if the #1 seed is viewed as an overly dominant team.
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  #22  
Old 03-17-17, 10:08 PM
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I enjoyed seeing coaches (especially of lower seeded teams) do their homework and try to position their teams on the bracket based on a potential favorable matchup and whatnot. Now, matchups will be almost as due to the luck of the draw as the old days when everyone after the top 4 seeds drew random pills. Didn't care much for the procedure they used a few years back where each of the top 4 seeds had to occupy a separate sectional. In that system, it was better to be a 5th seed than a 4th seed because the 5th seed could pick which of the top 4 seeds to go after; whereas the 4th seed was cornered into whichever sectional was left vacant by the top 3 seeds.

The current system NEO was using was good in that everyone was seeded, and the higher the seed, the more options were available (I'm guessing the #2 seed would never have chosen to go into the same half as the #1 seed anyway).
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  #23  
Old 03-17-17, 10:12 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
(I'm guessing the #2 seed would never have chosen to go into the same half as the #1 seed anyway).
I'm almost certain that was a rule...#2 seed had to go opposite of the #1 seed.
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  #24  
Old 03-17-17, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
I'm almost certain that was a rule...#2 seed had to go opposite of the #1 seed.
I believe it still is a rule in NEO, but at least the NEDAB eliminated the rule where each of the top 4 seeds had to choose different sectionals. That 1-2 seed rule notwithstanding (as stated, I doubt a #2 would ever choose the same half of the bracket as a #1 anyway), I like the current process because the higher the seed, the more bracket options a team has.
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Old 03-17-17, 10:23 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Red face

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnac the Magnifice View Post
It happens quite often. I know at the Euclid district between 2010 and 2013, the best seed on the side with the #1 seed was a 6 seed. It is be even more prevalent in smaller divisions where teams want to avoid schools like VASJ, or SVSM. It is very common for the #2,3,and 4 seeds to go opposite the #1 seed if the #1 seed is viewed as an overly dominant team.
It happens very often in the district STVM is in. This year, Alliance (who I think was the 3 seed) went on the Irish side of the bracket in order to get another home game (or that was the theory). But typically, the exodus to the bottom half of the bracket is pretty pronounced. I can understand why, as well.
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  #26  
Old 03-18-17, 12:21 AM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
It happens very often in the district STVM is in. This year, Alliance (who I think was the 3 seed) went on the Irish side of the bracket in order to get another home game (or that was the theory). But typically, the exodus to the bottom half of the bracket is pretty pronounced. I can understand why, as well.
Ironically, I feel like this makes a team like SVSM even more dominant in districts. Because they end up with the cupcake path to finals. Whereas our side of the bracket, we see nailbiters back to back that leave us more worn down come district finals. Not claiming that my comets had any better than a snowballs chance in hell last year in upseting SVSM, but even that chance would have evaporated when my comets were still recovering from their grind against Alliance not but two days prior. Had it been Alliance that came on top that day, they would have gone up against the Irish having grinded their way through Coventry, Buchtel AND Tallmadge, and been in even worse shape than my Comets were in. I mean, obviously fatigue is a part of the playoffs for every team regardless, but its just the shear difference from one side of a district bracket versus the other as a result of the exodus. As far as my districts case of course, It wouldnt have made the difference. Even a fully well rested Buchtel, Coventry, Kenmore, or Alliance likely gets schooled by SVSM, even if St V is the ones fatigued.. But just pointing out that in other years in other districts with similar situations, It is a factor that could be of aid to the 1 seed.

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Last edited by CoventryTrackXCguy; 03-18-17 at 12:54 AM.
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  #27  
Old 03-18-17, 05:38 AM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
I believe it still is a rule in NEO, but at least the NEDAB eliminated the rule where each of the top 4 seeds had to choose different sectionals. That 1-2 seed rule notwithstanding (as stated, I doubt a #2 would ever choose the same half of the bracket as a #1 anyway), I like the current process because the higher the seed, the more bracket options a team has.
I believe that was referred to as the "McKinley Rule" due to the fact that in the AAA draw, it was very common for the seeds 2-3-4 and, in fact, several of the first few pills, to go opposite McKinley during the (incredibly lengthy) era when the dominated that district.
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Old 03-18-17, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Stark Born & Bred View Post
I believe that was referred to as the "McKinley Rule" due to the fact that in the AAA draw, it was very common for the seeds 2-3-4 and, in fact, several of the first few pills, to go opposite McKinley during the (incredibly lengthy) era when the dominated that district.
It will be referred to as the gilmour rule. That jack*ss coach that beat down that team by 100 points and ended up on national news. OHSAA was not happy about that.
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  #29  
Old 03-18-17, 11:20 AM
Worm02 Worm02 is offline
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I wish that the OHSAA would stop messing with the way that they do things. Things were fine the way that they were in football & basketball. All these proposals & rule changes are unnecessary.
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  #30  
Old 03-18-17, 11:41 AM
FootsWalker FootsWalker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
I believe it still is a rule in NEO, but at least the NEDAB eliminated the rule where each of the top 4 seeds had to choose different sectionals. That 1-2 seed rule notwithstanding (as stated, I doubt a #2 would ever choose the same half of the bracket as a #1 anyway), I like the current process because the higher the seed, the more bracket options a team has.
Totally agree. I get that no one likes to see a situation where the #1 (or the team that the other coaches "treat" as #1) ends up playing teams #11 & #12 in their 1st two games, and I understand that, but that's really about all this accomplishes. Seems to me that if the #2-3-4 want to play a 1st round game and not take the bye that they've earned that right, as well as who they prefer to angle to potentially play against in the 2nd round. Not all 1st round games are lousy games. Take this year's Canton district for example: Copley, #4 chose to play a 1st round game and drew a quality opponent in Barberton; was a good game, 10-12 point win, and undoubtedly helped them look sharper in their next game v McKinley. Wooster the #3, decides to skip the bye and play a 1st round game, and they end up getting beat at home by Massillon. Didn't work out for both teams, but they were good games nonetheless. I'm sure there are lots of similar stories from other districts. Outside of eliminating the #1 v #11-12 and not making the coaches drive to the seeding meeting, I don't think this accomplishes much else.
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