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  #31  
Old 03-17-17, 05:24 PM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
So when somebody does something good for me I don't have to thank them... because the root of it was their own self centered motives? Do away with gratitude and replace it with bitterness? Sounds awesome.
You're either missing the whole point or just being difficult since I'm the OP. Either way it is ok with me.

It has nothing to do with what you just described.

You thank them because it is the right thing to do. We do the right thing why? Because we want to treat others as we would like to be treated and to seek favor in God. Either way, we are doing it for selfish reasons.

This leads to deeper philosophical questions such as did God create man or man create God? Religion helps with structure on rules (although many would argue that). And atheists can say they are atheists til they are blue in the face but like a wise old Medical Doctor told me once, all atheists seem to find God on their death bed.
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  #32  
Old 03-17-17, 05:26 PM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
A college professor presented this argument to me 17 years ago, and I too have thought about it ever since. It's one of a handful of lessons that have stuck with me.
It is amazing what sticks but this certainly one that has.
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  #33  
Old 03-17-17, 05:30 PM
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eastside_purple eastside_purple is offline
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Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
It is amazing what sticks but this certainly one that has.
So the priest has determined everyone's motive is to make themselves look and/or feel good? The motive is never about deep concern and the aid of fellow man? Wow!

What if they do something for the good of another person that makes them look weak or unfavorably to others, even the person they do it for?
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  #34  
Old 03-17-17, 05:56 PM
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What about the saying "no good deed goes unpunished"? It seems whenever you try to help someone it back fires. That's surely doesn't make you feel good.
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  #35  
Old 03-17-17, 06:18 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
So the priest has determined everyone's motive is to make themselves look and/or feel good? The motive is never about deep concern and the aid of fellow man? Wow!
I think you're missing the "sole purpose" part of the argument. My professor presented it as something being "100% altruistic."

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What if they do something for the good of another person that makes them look weak or unfavorably to others, even the person they do it for?
That doesn't get to their motive so it's hard to say.
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  #36  
Old 03-17-17, 06:56 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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It's a semantics game.

If I'm doing something because the beliefs instilled in me tell me that's what I should be doing, Priesty says I'm being altruistic. If I believe in God, I'm being Altruistic.

Sorry to disagree here but I find the Priest's posing as stated, shallow. Die the Priest give examples of things someone could do that WEREN'T self serving? Is it even possible to fart without being altruisitic?

Sounds like his definition of "altruistic" is "survivor." The only thing you can do that ISN'T altruistic, is die and even sometimes...
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  #37  
Old 03-17-17, 07:02 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
It's a semantics game.

If I'm doing something because the beliefs instilled in me tell me that's what I should be doing, Priesty says I'm being altruistic. If I believe in God, I'm being Altruistic.

Sorry to disagree here but I find the Priest's posing as stated, shallow. Die the Priest give examples of things someone could do that WEREN'T self serving? Is it even possible to fart without being altruisitic?

Sounds like his definition of "altruistic" is "survivor." The only thing you can do that ISN'T altruistic, is die and even sometimes...
I'm not sure why people are acting like this is some random thoughts of a lone priest. This is a widely discussed topic. Don't believe me...google "does true altruism exist." If this was just some priest, or psychology professor in my case, just talking out their butt you probably won't get any hits.
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  #38  
Old 03-17-17, 09:23 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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We are "acting" like this because the thread was phrased in that manner. Trust me, we are old and have been around a long time to have come across this discussion many times from sociology classes to Oprah to Springer. It's shallow semanticism at its best, meant to give kids a focus on which to think meta and at its worst, used to manipulate and to justify wearing jackets with elbow patches.
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  #39  
Old 03-17-17, 09:45 PM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Are you insinuating that I posted this to justify wearing Jacket's with elbow patches? C'mon man?

This probably belongs on the Debate Forum but anything there quickly turns into a political side. In fact the Debate Forum should be changed to the Political Forum. Or at least another forum added.

I posted it to provoke thought, based off of the recent religious threads.

Mission accomplished.

How much Oprah and Springer do you watch?

Last edited by irish_buffalo; 03-18-17 at 06:21 AM.
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  #40  
Old 03-17-17, 09:50 PM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Nor does it matter. I was always shocked that a Catholic priest would teach young men this. And later grateful. That same priest never rose the ranks like he should have probably for that reason.

Begs further questions, like does it matter? Which is the conclusion I always arrive at. Things are relative.
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  #41  
Old 03-17-17, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
What about a soldier who sacrifices for the good of his country, and gets much less in return than remaining in civilian life would bring him?
Doing something out of a sense of duty is not altruistic, IMO
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  #42  
Old 03-17-17, 10:28 PM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
You're either missing the whole point or just being difficult since I'm the OP. Either way it is ok with me.

It has nothing to do with what you just described.

You thank them because it is the right thing to do. We do the right thing why? Because we want to treat others as we would like to be treated and to seek favor in God. Either way, we are doing it for selfish reasons.

This leads to deeper philosophical questions such as did God create man or man create God? Religion helps with structure on rules (although many would argue that). And atheists can say they are atheists til they are blue in the face but like a wise old Medical Doctor told me once, all atheists seem to find God on their death bed.
I'm not missing the point, and I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm simply using the logic that if all acts of kindness are self centered, then there really is no need for gratitude.

However... I think that philosophical by is extremely flawed. When I do things for my kids, I don't think or feel good about myself. I do, however, feel good that they have what they need. Is that self centered? If that's the idea... then really this world would be a miserable place. So why should my kids be thankful? I just bought my youngest a new truck... instead of thanks should he just say "Whatever dad, you only did it to feel good about yourself or gain sthe me satisfaction as a dad." What about if I open the door for a woman? Should she walk past me and say "Happy?" Lol. The idea that people run around doing things simply because they're trying to garner favor with God or "treat other as they want to be treated" simply isn't true IMO. That's an extremely cynical way of looking at life, and in truth seems to take the joy out of being a good person. I would strongly question any priest that tried to paint such an ugly picture of the world. In fact, the more I read some of the ideas of the Catholics on here I'm seriously starting to question sending my son to a Catholic school. Cynical, agnostic, questioning God and even saying it's foolish to believe in the Resurrection. Seriously... I think the closest Catholic here that's been a good witness for God is Tyler, and I haven't read all his comments yet so... lol
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  #43  
Old 03-17-17, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
We are "acting" like this because the thread was phrased in that manner. Trust me, we are old and have been around a long time to have come across this discussion many times from sociology classes to Oprah to Springer. It's shallow semanticism at its best, meant to give kids a focus on which to think meta and at its worst, used to manipulate and to justify wearing jackets with elbow patches.
Agree.
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  #44  
Old 03-18-17, 06:21 AM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
I'm not missing the point, and I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm simply using the logic that if all acts of kindness are self centered, then there really is no need for gratitude.

However... I think that philosophical by is extremely flawed. When I do things for my kids, I don't think or feel good about myself. I do, however, feel good that they have what they need. Is that self centered? If that's the idea... then really this world would be a miserable place. So why should my kids be thankful? I just bought my youngest a new truck... instead of thanks should he just say "Whatever dad, you only did it to feel good about yourself or gain sthe me satisfaction as a dad." What about if I open the door for a woman? Should she walk past me and say "Happy?" Lol. The idea that people run around doing things simply because they're trying to garner favor with God or "treat other as they want to be treated" simply isn't true IMO. That's an extremely cynical way of looking at life, and in truth seems to take the joy out of being a good person. I would strongly question any priest that tried to paint such an ugly picture of the world. In fact, the more I read some of the ideas of the Catholics on here I'm seriously starting to question sending my son to a Catholic school. Cynical, agnostic, questioning God and even saying it's foolish to believe in the Resurrection. Seriously... I think the closest Catholic here that's been a good witness for God is Tyler, and I haven't read all his comments yet so... lol
I do the same thing for my boys as well. Still hold the door for people and will return a wallet with all contents if found. Why? Because I do believe in a God and that he taught to treat others as I would like to be treated.

The entire purpose is to delve into ones faith and ask the question about altruism being human nature and a survival tactic or do you believe in a higher power?
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  #45  
Old 03-18-17, 11:35 AM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Well, to answer that question I do believe in a higher power. However, that isn't why I try to do kind things for people when I have that opportunity. I'm not sure why I do things. I've lost money on a business deal because from my end it was simply the right thing to do as far as morality. I didn't feel good about myself as if I took the high road. I actually felt pretty bad that I lost a sizable amount of money lol. I don't I did it to treat him as I wanted others to treat me either. To me, it's as simple as what's right and what's wrong. I'd be lying if I said that I never do wrong. Sometimes I KNOW what's right and do wrong anyway just because I don't freaking feel like doing right lol. Laziness I suppose.
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  #46  
Old 03-18-17, 05:07 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
Are you insinuating that I posted this to justify wearing Jacket's with elbow patches? C'mon man?
have you even known me to waste time with "insinuation" when I could just say it directly? I believe I accurately phrased it to refer to the general case.

And who is Jacket?

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Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
The entire purpose is to delve into ones faith and ask the question about altruism being human nature and a survival tactic or do you believe in a higher power?
That may be someone's idea of the "purpose" but it misses. The only alternative thought is that the "power" is the ultimate puppet master and that there is no free will. Again, semantics, not philosophy.

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I had a Priest teach me that no one does anything for the sole purpose of being good.
You were straight up manipulated. It wasn't the Priest's role to "teach" that to you. That's not the point of the exercise, or at least, it's not supposed to be the point. The point of the exercise is supposed to be to give young minds opportunity to think about thinking and their own role in the choices they make. It's supposed to be an exercise of self-evaluation, not conclusion.

Last edited by eastisbest; 03-18-17 at 05:34 PM.
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  #47  
Old 03-18-17, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
have you even known me to waste time with "insinuation" when I could just say it directly? I believe I accurately phrased it to refer to the general case.

And who is Jacket?
Yeah because you're great at speaking diriect and not in circles and figure 8's and S's and W's.
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  #48  
Old 03-18-17, 05:15 PM
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For what it's worth. I give money to St. Jude every month, comes out of my bank acct. When I set it up, I was thinking about how they don't charge anyone and I could afford to spare some money. Sure I felt good afterwards, but it wasn't my intention, my intention was to help. Also, this is the first I have mentioned it to anyone.
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  #49  
Old 03-18-17, 05:16 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by Possessed View Post
Well, to answer that question I do believe in a higher power. However, that isn't why I try to do kind things for people when I have that opportunity. I'm not sure why I do things. I've lost money on a business deal because from my end it was simply the right thing to do as far as morality. I didn't feel good about myself as if I took the high road. I actually felt pretty bad that I lost a sizable amount of money lol. I don't I did it to treat him as I wanted others to treat me either. To me, it's as simple as what's right and what's wrong. I'd be lying if I said that I never do wrong. Sometimes I KNOW what's right and do wrong anyway just because I don't freaking feel like doing right lol. Laziness I suppose.
Well obviously you did it to castigate yourself because it made you feel good to do so.

This seems to be what anyone taking this "thought game" seriously would have to think.

Everything done by a human whether by thoughtful choice or by instinct can be coached as "survival," personal pleasure or gain. They've defined human action in a way that disables any other interpretation of human action, hence it's a wasteful semantics game.

The honest instructor has explained the concept of metaphilosophy and has explained to the students, they are just participating in a thought experiment. The dishonest or uneducated ones are just IMO,trying to manipulate and pose erudite.
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  #50  
Old 03-18-17, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
For what it's worth. I give money to St. Jude every month, comes out of my bank acct. When I set it up, I was thinking about how they don't charge anyone and I could afford to spare some money. Sure I felt good afterwards, but it wasn't my intention, my intention was to help. Also, this is the first I have mentioned it to anyone.
Liar, you posted it on your Facebook page with the title, "Guess who's getting into heaven now, b!tches?"
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  #51  
Old 03-18-17, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
Yeah because you're great at speaking diriect and not in circles and figure 8's and S's and W's.
They look like figure 8's to you because you can't keep two thoughts in your head long enough to measure a third. Anything more than two points linear, you get lost. Your brain attempts to compensate your inability to think any deeper than a crack in a sidewalk by lashing out like a two year old.



It's okay. The world needs your kind of diversity too. When you get to five, you'll start to ask questions about the things you don't understand.
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  #52  
Old 03-18-17, 05:22 PM
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Liar, you posted it on your Facebook page with the title, "Guess who's getting into heaven now, b!tches?"
Lol busted me.
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  #53  
Old 03-18-17, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
They look like figure 8's to you because you can't keep two thoughts in your head long enough to measure a third. Anything more than two points linear, you get lost. Your brain attempts to compensate your inability to think any deeper than a crack in a sidewalk by lashing out like a two year old.



It's okay. The world needs your kind of diversity too. When you get to five, you'll start to ask questions about the things you don't understand.
Finally!! A direct comprehendible response.
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  #54  
Old 03-18-17, 05:28 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
Yeah because you're great at speaking diriect and not in circles and figure 8's and S's and W's.
They look like figure 8's to you because you can't keep two thoughts in your head long enough to measure a third. Anything more than two points linear, you get lost. Your brain attempts to compensate your inability to think any deeper than a crack in a sidewalk by lashing out like a two year old.



It's okay. The world needs your kind of diversity too. When you get to five, you'll start to ask questions about the things you don't understand but then fall to the premise that it wasn't your choice, you only did it to fulfill a pre-programmed instruction.
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  #55  
Old 03-18-17, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
They look like figure 8's to you because you can't keep two thoughts in your head long enough to measure a third. Anything more than two points linear, you get lost. Your brain attempts to compensate your inability to think any deeper than a crack in a sidewalk by lashing out like a two year old.



It's okay. The world needs your kind of diversity too. When you get to five, you'll start to ask questions about the things you don't understand but then fall to the premise that it wasn't your choice, you only did it to fulfill a pre-programmed instruction.
You know you can edit right?
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  #56  
Old 03-18-17, 05:39 PM
the_big_toe the_big_toe is offline
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Haven't read the entire thread, but I will say, regarding the opening post ... I don't think it cheapens the good deed simply because the doer feels good about doing it. In fact, what a great system - where everyone benefits from the good deed done: the recipient gets the direct benefit of the good deed and the doer gets the benefit of the good feelings. Everybody comes out ahead = great system. Thanks, God. :-)
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  #57  
Old 03-18-17, 05:42 PM
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Unless you hold the door for a blue-haired feminist. Then it's sexism and patriarchy.
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  #58  
Old 03-19-17, 08:58 AM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Originally Posted by eastisbest View Post
The point of the exercise is supposed to be to give young minds opportunity to think about thinking and their own role in the choices they make. It's supposed to be an exercise of self-evaluation, not conclusion.
Never manipulated as you say. With all of the recent Religious discussion I thought it would be fun to bring up (and this is not the first time). Trust me, wont make that mistake again. For whatever reason you feel the need to make everything more complicated and difficult than what it IS. There was zero intent to rub you wrong but it certainly happened.

What I have left in quotes from you is exactly what I got from the "exercise".

Jackets with elbow patches and manipulation? I imagine walking to the mailbox is a chore for you some days.
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