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  #1  
Old 03-16-17, 10:52 AM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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Religious question for Catholics

This isnt a new debate or thought. In fact many theologians have debated this issue at hand

In order to get to heaven one must accept Jesus
Christ as the savior and ask for forgiveness of his/her sins. If you do those two things you will get into heaven according to the Bible.

Do you believe that is all it takes?

I have a hard time believing that someone could live a terrible life of sin and as long as before they die or when they stand in front of the big man they assccept Jesus and ask for forgiveness and they are in heaven.

So for example, to play extreme, Hitler would be in heaven if he accepted Jesus and asked for forgiveness of his sins.

This came up in a religion class of mine many years back with a man by the name of Dr. Trokan. I posed the scenario I stated about Hitler being in heaven. The classmates looked at me in disbelief I said something so off color. Was shocked Dr Trokan backed up my claims and thus we began the debate of getting into heaven amongst the class. Probably the best religion teacher I have ever had and brought up complex issues.
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  #2  
Old 03-16-17, 10:55 AM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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I would believe there has to be some punishment for the crimes committed.

Now I am sure it is unlikely someone like Hitler would accept Jesus before he died, this is just hypothetical.
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  #3  
Old 03-16-17, 10:59 AM
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I guess it is tough for me to grasp that God could be so forgiving to someone. Something I wouldn't be able to do. The thought, unconditional love for everyone no matter what is tough for me to grasp. I guess that is how great His love is for us. That He would forgive anyone and anything
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  #4  
Old 03-16-17, 11:23 AM
tallmadge H2 dad tallmadge H2 dad is offline
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Here is how I try to explain this. Do you have kids? If so, think of you child, or someone that you love. I love my kids unconditionally, no matter what they do. Even when I am fiercely angry with them or punishing them, I love them. I will ALWAYS forgive them no matter what. And I am only a human man. So now, picture how God feels about each of us. No one said that FORGIVENESS means NO PUNISHMENT.
God knows our heart. I believe that if one truly accepts God, that they will be forgiven for even the worst of sins. This is called faith. There is no "proof" as doubters like to ask for. Just my belief on the subject.
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  #5  
Old 03-16-17, 11:26 AM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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I'll take a stab. I was always taught contrition was necessary for the forgiveness of sins, not just the asking. So to answer your question, no I don't necessarily believe that person would go to heaven. Now if the person was truly contrite, then I think heaven would be in their future. In my mind though, people who would fit into that category would be few and far between.
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  #6  
Old 03-16-17, 11:33 AM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallmadge H2 dad View Post
Here is how I try to explain this. Do you have kids? If so, think of you child, or someone that you love. I love my kids unconditionally, no matter what they do. Even when I am fiercely angry with them or punishing them, I love them. I will ALWAYS forgive them no matter what. And I am only a human man. So now, picture how God feels about each of us. No one said that FORGIVENESS means NO PUNISHMENT.
God knows our heart. I believe that if one truly accepts God, that they will be forgiven for even the worst of sins. This is called faith. There is no "proof" as doubters like to ask for. Just my belief on the subject.
Good post.
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  #7  
Old 03-16-17, 11:38 AM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Originally Posted by arrogate View Post
good post.
+1
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  #8  
Old 03-16-17, 11:39 AM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
I'll take a stab. I was always taught contrition was necessary for the forgiveness of sins, not just the asking. So to answer your question, no I don't necessarily believe that person would go to heaven. Now if the person was truly contrite, then I think heaven would be in their future. In my mind though, people who would fit into that category would be few and far between.
I think maybe that's what purgatory is, a time to suffer and prove your devotion for some.
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  #9  
Old 03-16-17, 11:39 AM
Uncle Ted Uncle Ted is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallmadge H2 dad View Post
Here is how I try to explain this. Do you have kids? If so, think of you child, or someone that you love. I love my kids unconditionally, no matter what they do. Even when I am fiercely angry with them or punishing them, I love them. I will ALWAYS forgive them no matter what. And I am only a human man. So now, picture how God feels about each of us. No one said that FORGIVENESS means NO PUNISHMENT.
God knows our heart. I believe that if one truly accepts God, that they will be forgiven for even the worst of sins. This is called faith. There is no "proof" as doubters like to ask for. Just my belief on the subject.
Could you ever punish any of your kids to eternal damnation? Not a week or month or year. But forever and ever. Do you think you love your kids more than God loves his?
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  #10  
Old 03-16-17, 11:46 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Didn't Jesus address this issue in the parable of the Vinyard workers? They received the same pay no matter when they started working.

Someone mentioned contrition as part of the process of forgiveness, as a protestant I think we call it by a different term but essentially means the same. Intention to follow God is an essential part of true belief, and once you have true belief, yes, even Hitler is salvageable. We like to put levels or degrees upon the sin of a person, but in reality, the gulf between the righteousness of God and the sin of any man is nearly equal in God's eyes.
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  #11  
Old 03-16-17, 11:50 AM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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The parable of the prodigal son could also help explain this.
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  #12  
Old 03-16-17, 11:51 AM
Uncle Ted Uncle Ted is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
Didn't Jesus address this issue in the parable of the Vinyard workers? They received the same pay no matter when they started working.

Someone mentioned contrition as part of the process of forgiveness, as a protestant I think we call it by a different term but essentially means the same. Intention to follow God is an essential part of true belief, and once you have true belief, yes, even Hitler is salvageable. We like to put levels or degrees upon the sin of a person, but in reality, the gulf between the righteousness of God and the sin of any man is nearly equal in God's eyes.
What if your God was allah or Muhammad? How do we know they aren't right?
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  #13  
Old 03-16-17, 11:53 AM
Uncle Ted Uncle Ted is offline
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You shall have no other Gods besides me. One of the commandments b
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  #14  
Old 03-16-17, 12:25 PM
Zunardo Zunardo is offline
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Pardon me for butting in, as I am not Catholic; however, the question is appropriate for me as a Bible-believing Christian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
Didn't Jesus address this issue in the parable of the Vinyard workers? They received the same pay no matter when they started working.

Someone mentioned contrition as part of the process of forgiveness, as a protestant I think we call it by a different term but essentially means the same. Intention to follow God is an essential part of true belief, and once you have true belief, yes, even Hitler is salvageable. We like to put levels or degrees upon the sin of a person, but in reality, the gulf between the righteousness of God and the sin of any man is nearly equal in God's eyes.
Good points. I would add the concept of repenting of the sin; literally, turning around and going away from the sin, once they have acknowledged being sinners.

I think it was Gabriel Iglesias who made fun of the fact that he as a Catholic could just ask for forgiveness for his sins, then turn around and partake in more sins willfully and with premeditation, then simply claim diplomatic immunity and say, "Doesn't matter - I'm going to heaven! I'm covered!", and just keep repeating the process

Paul addresses that fallacy in Hebrews 10, referring to people who deliberately sin after they have received the knowledge that their previous sins were forgiven, that willfully continuing to sin disrespects Jesus' sacrifice and the spirit of grace (unmerited restoration with God).
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  #15  
Old 03-16-17, 12:49 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
What if your God was allah or Muhammad? How do we know they aren't right?
Ted, your trying and I like that. I believe it was assumed we were talking Christianity here. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father ( capitalized out of reverence and to amuse BJF) but by Me".

Jesus pretty well dispensed of the other God issue. A Christian believes He is the only way.
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  #16  
Old 03-16-17, 12:53 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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I think Hitler is a poor example. He was a horrific human being, who took his own life. At what point, in his earthly life, would he be able to become this man of God?
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  #17  
Old 03-16-17, 12:54 PM
Arrogate Arrogate is offline
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I disagree but that's not the point

I am simply posing the question of do you believe you must do the time if you commit the crime even if you ask for true forgiveness and accept Jesus at some point in your life or after. Is that all it takes on your mind, asking for true forgiveness and accept Jesus as savior

Use someone else an example if it works better for you.
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  #18  
Old 03-16-17, 12:58 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by Arrogate View Post
OK he's a bad example the main point still stands. Maybe you don't like the possibility of a horrible human being in heaven?
No, I'm fine with it and believe in its possibility.
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  #19  
Old 03-16-17, 12:59 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrogate View Post
OK he's a bad example the main point still stands. Maybe you don't like the possibility of a horrible human being in heaven? Were you with him before he died? No one knows what went on his head head. He could have found God and Jesus. Not likely but you can't rule it out. Also is killing yourself a sin, yes, but one could still ask for forgiveness.
No, it's a bad example because his final act indicated he wasn't right with God. There is no opportunity to request forgiveness after that.
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  #20  
Old 03-16-17, 01:03 PM
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I edited my post. Not going to argue with you over Hitler but the main point I was bringing up.
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  #21  
Old 03-16-17, 01:03 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
Ted, your trying and I like that. I believe it was assumed we were talking Christianity here. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father ( capitalized out of reverence and to amuse BJF) but by Me".

Jesus pretty well dispensed of the other God issue. A Christian believes He is the only way.
Not all of us.
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  #22  
Old 03-16-17, 01:05 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Keep something in mind. This isn't some clever parlor trick...rotten your whole life and then you, all of a sudden, sincerely turn it all around. Possible? Absolutely...I believe that. Likely? No.
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  #23  
Old 03-16-17, 01:06 PM
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I agree completely with what you say
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  #24  
Old 03-16-17, 02:15 PM
tallmadge H2 dad tallmadge H2 dad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
Could you ever punish any of your kids to eternal damnation? Not a week or month or year. But forever and ever. Do you think you love your kids more than God loves his?
Exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying. As much love as we have for our own children pales in comparison to God's love for his.
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  #25  
Old 03-16-17, 02:21 PM
ogealbhain ogealbhain is online now
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Originally Posted by tallmadge H2 dad View Post
Exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying. As much love as we have for our own children pales in comparison to God's love for his.
Why I don't believe in Hell....
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  #26  
Old 03-16-17, 03:28 PM
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Why I don't believe in Hell....
That's one, of many reasons, for not believing in hell. If god loves us more than we love our children, then he's not sending anybody to hell.
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  #27  
Old 03-16-17, 03:55 PM
Possessed Possessed is offline
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Originally Posted by BlackHawk View Post
That's one, of many reasons, for not believing in hell. If god loves us more than we love our children, then he's not sending anybody to hell.
So by this logic we can rape and murder or do whatever. God is pretty clear about punishment. Pretty sure that's spelled out clearly. Awfully vain of anyone to put themselves in Gods shoes lol.

BTW Lucifer was the most beloved angel. Loved above all others. And God cast him down into Hell.

Last edited by Possessed; 03-16-17 at 04:39 PM.
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  #28  
Old 03-16-17, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by TylerDurden View Post
Not all of us.
If you don't believe Jesus is the way, the truth, the life.....Then you can't really call yourself a Christian in my opinion. That is a core belief of Christianity.

I don't view Christianity as a burger king where you can have it your way. It is His way.
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  #29  
Old 03-16-17, 04:11 PM
ronnie mund ronnie mund is offline
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But at any rate, the point is that God is what nobody admits to being, and everybody really is. -Alan Watts
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  #30  
Old 03-16-17, 04:12 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
If you don't believe Jesus is the way, the truth, the life.....Then you can't really call yourself a Christian in my opinion. That is a core belief of Christianity.

I don't view Christianity as a burger king where you can have it your way. It is His way.
Christianity works for me, I wasn't talking about my belief in Jesus. I just have a hard time imagining a God that is so rigid, he'd deny access to heaven to every devout Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. because they happened to pick the wrong faith.
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