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  #61  
Old 03-14-17, 06:10 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh anyone who looks at the state title breakdown in the state of Ohio, with any sense of fairness, could see something is not right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

The Pareto Principle is the 80/20 Rule. That means that you would expect some 144 teams to have won 80% of the overall tities. And it means that public schools are winning 60% of the titles.

With all the whining about inner city public schools, how they have to take everybody, how the do-nothings drag them down, etc., why doesn't that sound right? BTW, none of those excuses are the fault of the private schools.

Only 9 public schools and 7 Catholic schools (a total of 16 teams) have won state championships in AAA and D1 from 1972 through and including 2016 (45 years). That's about 3 state championships per winner over the years. And more than 100 others (in all but the last couple years) who haven't won any.

Only 3 public schools have won multiple times from that group. 6 Catholic schools have won multiple times.

It appears to me that certain schools lead the pack. That's exactly what I would expect. I'm sure there are differences in ratios, etc. in each division, but overall those results appear to be representative of my expectations for any division in the state.

Cincinnati teams (Princeton, Moeller, St. X, Elder, Colerain, Fairfield) have won 19 of the 45 titles. NE Ohio teams (Western Reserve, Harding, Mooney, Canton McKinley, St. Ignatius, St. Edward) have won 22 of the titles. Other areas of the state have won the rest (Toledo St. Francis, Lima Senior, Hilliard Davidson).

Who would argue that Cincinnati and NE Ohio have not had the best football teams?

What is the problem, actually?
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  #62  
Old 03-14-17, 06:37 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Super Bowl winners all time (1967-2016), 51 games in all:

Steelers 6
Packers 5
Cowboys 5
49ers 5
Patriots 5
Giants 4
Raiders 3
Redskins 3
Colts 2
Dolphins2
Broncos 2
Ravens 2
Jets 1
Chiefs 1
Bears 1
Rams 1
Buccaneers 1
Saints 1
Seahawks 1
Bills 0
Bengals 0
Browns 0
Texans 0
Chargers 0
Jaguars 0
Titans 0
Eagles 0
Lions 0
Vikings 0
Falcons 0
Panthers 0
Cardinals 0

The NFL is designed by the draft, the salary cap and lots of other rules to be even in talent. They measure every player coming in to the league by height, weight, speed, quickness, strength, football experience, temperament, etc., etc.

1 team has won 6 times
4 teams have won 5 times
1 team has won 4 times
2 teams have won 3 times
4 teams have won 2 times
7 teams have won 1 time
13 teams have won 0 times

Hoser would prefer, I guess, for each team to at least win one. So, since there's an obvious problem, we need to somehow "level the playing field". To do that, we'll just put all the teams who have won in the past in one division, and the winner of that division will play 4 games against the 4 top teams in the other division (past losers). If any of the past losers beat the winners division champ, then that team will be the overall champion. If two or more teams beat the winners division champ, then they will actually play one or more super bowls.

That, friends, is CBP.
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  #63  
Old 03-14-17, 07:41 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

The Pareto Principle is the 80/20 Rule. That means that you would expect some 144 teams to have won 80% of the overall tities. And it means that public schools are winning 60% of the titles.

With all the whining about inner city public schools, how they have to take everybody, how the do-nothings drag them down, etc., why doesn't that sound right? BTW, none of those excuses are the fault of the private schools.

Only 9 public schools and 7 Catholic schools (a total of 16 teams) have won state championships in AAA and D1 from 1972 through and including 2016 (45 years). That's about 3 state championships per winner over the years. And more than 100 others (in all but the last couple years) who haven't won any.

Only 3 public schools have won multiple times from that group. 6 Catholic schools have won multiple times.

It appears to me that certain schools lead the pack. That's exactly what I would expect. I'm sure there are differences in ratios, etc. in each division, but overall those results appear to be representative of my expectations for any division in the state.

Cincinnati teams (Princeton, Moeller, St. X, Elder, Colerain, Fairfield) have won 19 of the 45 titles. NE Ohio teams (Western Reserve, Harding, Mooney, Canton McKinley, St. Ignatius, St. Edward) have won 22 of the titles. Other areas of the state have won the rest (Toledo St. Francis, Lima Senior, Hilliard Davidson).

Who would argue that Cincinnati and NE Ohio have not had the best football teams?

What is the problem, actually?
Uh, dude you are the greatest researcher in the history of this site. Uh sadly the fact remains,private schools win way to many titles as a percentage of the total schools. Uh just doesn't add up.
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  #64  
Old 03-14-17, 07:43 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
Super Bowl winners all time (1967-2016), 51 games in all:

Steelers 6
Packers 5
Cowboys 5
49ers 5
Patriots 5
Giants 4
Raiders 3
Redskins 3
Colts 2
Dolphins2
Broncos 2
Ravens 2
Jets 1
Chiefs 1
Bears 1
Rams 1
Buccaneers 1
Saints 1
Seahawks 1
Bills 0
Bengals 0
Browns 0
Texans 0
Chargers 0
Jaguars 0
Titans 0
Eagles 0
Lions 0
Vikings 0
Falcons 0
Panthers 0
Cardinals 0

The NFL is designed by the draft, the salary cap and lots of other rules to be even in talent. They measure every player coming in to the league by height, weight, speed, quickness, strength, football experience, temperament, etc., etc.

1 team has won 6 times
4 teams have won 5 times
1 team has won 4 times
2 teams have won 3 times
4 teams have won 2 times
7 teams have won 1 time
13 teams have won 0 times

Hoser would prefer, I guess, for each team to at least win one. So, since there's an obvious problem, we need to somehow "level the playing field". To do that, we'll just put all the teams who have won in the past in one division, and the winner of that division will play 4 games against the 4 top teams in the other division (past losers). If any of the past losers beat the winners division champ, then that team will be the overall champion. If two or more teams beat the winners division champ, then they will actually play one or more super bowls.

That, friends, is CBP.
Uh, nah we don't need to "level the playing field," just bump up every private school 2 divisions.
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  #65  
Old 03-14-17, 07:50 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
What number should that be? 180? 360? 720?

We can't legislate your kids being better at sports.
Uh I don't have any kids playing, so it would be awfully hard for them to be better at anything. UH the kids at your school have been to camps and have had great coaching and diet counselors ,and great parental support. Uh most of the kids in public schools have none of that. Uh you guys win, but it is not because of talent.
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  #66  
Old 03-14-17, 08:34 PM
ricotree55 ricotree55 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cali_Eagle View Post
If Rosecrans only has a 16 man roster, maybe it's time for Ohio to start an 8 man and even a 6 man division. Then some of the smaller schools might be able to start teams (if they don't have them now) and play amongst themselves in realistic and fairer competition.

Of course, in thinking about it a little, some large inner city schools have very small rosters too. So you might have to have 2 divisions in case one of them decided to play 6 or 8 man. Maybe you'd need an enrollment cutoff for playing 6 or 8.
Excellent point
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  #67  
Old 03-14-17, 09:08 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh, nah we don't need to "level the playing field," just bump up every private school 2 divisions.
40 teams have won 100% of the titles over the last 10-11 years. Half of them public schools. Do they get bumped up 2 divisions as well?
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  #68  
Old 03-14-17, 09:15 PM
FossyWriter8 FossyWriter8 is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh, nah we don't need to "level the playing field," just bump up every private school 2 divisions.
I've read a lot of idiotic statements on the Internet over the past two decades, and the above bolded statement is right up there near the top of that list.
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  #69  
Old 03-14-17, 09:48 PM
Sykotyk Sykotyk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
Super Bowl winners all time (1967-2016), 51 games in all:

Steelers 6
Packers 5
Cowboys 5
49ers 5
Patriots 5
Giants 4
Raiders 3
Redskins 3
Colts 2
Dolphins2
Broncos 2
Ravens 2
Jets 1
Chiefs 1
Bears 1
Rams 1
Buccaneers 1
Saints 1
Seahawks 1
Bills 0
Bengals 0
Browns 0
Texans 0
Chargers 0
Jaguars 0
Titans 0
Eagles 0
Lions 0
Vikings 0
Falcons 0
Panthers 0
Cardinals 0

The NFL is designed by the draft, the salary cap and lots of other rules to be even in talent. They measure every player coming in to the league by height, weight, speed, quickness, strength, football experience, temperament, etc., etc.

1 team has won 6 times
4 teams have won 5 times
1 team has won 4 times
2 teams have won 3 times
4 teams have won 2 times
7 teams have won 1 time
13 teams have won 0 times

Hoser would prefer, I guess, for each team to at least win one. So, since there's an obvious problem, we need to somehow "level the playing field". To do that, we'll just put all the teams who have won in the past in one division, and the winner of that division will play 4 games against the 4 top teams in the other division (past losers). If any of the past losers beat the winners division champ, then that team will be the overall champion. If two or more teams beat the winners division champ, then they will actually play one or more super bowls.

That, friends, is CBP.

Actually, you completely missed your point.


The NFL didn't have free agency until 1993. Now, you might think the NFL is a good example, but there's two very big differences in NFL history.

Between the 1970 and 1992 seasons (when all Super Bowl participants were full members of the NFL and there was no free agency) there was 9 different champions.

In 1970, there were 26 teams. In 1974, they added Seattle and Tampa Bay. So, 9 teams won a title. And what's worse, is it was a string of repeat teams. Pittsburgh and San Francisco with 4 each, Raiders and Redskins with 3 each, Miami, Dallas, and N.Y. Giants with 2 each. And only Baltimore Colts and Chicago Bears managed to win a single title during the 26/28-team NFL after the merger.

9 Champions in 23 season.

With the advent of free agency in the 1993 season, things have changed. In 1995 they added Jacksonville and Carolina. In 1999 they added the Cleveland Browns. In 2002 they added the Houston Texans.

In the 24 since free agency, there's been 14 different champions. The most obvious is New England with their 5 under Brady and Bellichick. But, then there's Dallas and Denver with 3 each, Pittsburgh, N.Y. Giants, Green Bay and Baltimore with 2 each. But, what's impressive is the seven teams that won just once.

Now, 14 champions in 24 seasons.

But, there are a few caveats to this free agency. With the advent of free agency, teams still had players under contract. Their rights when the contracts expired changed, but they still had players.

The first four years of free agency were this: Dallas, Dallas, San Francisco, Dallas. It really wasn't until Green Bay was able to assemble a good team under free agency that you could say free agency had proven itself.

And San Francisco's win in SB29 was thanks entirely to blatantly violating the salary cap with a string of one-year deals and back-loaded deals they never intended to keep in order to grossly overpay for their last hurrah. They were in salary cap hell for years after both because of the NFL changing the rules and their own hubris at buying at a championship.

But, having said that, there's one thing free agency brought on that people didn't foresee. And that was that players who have reached their 'maximum pay' would then choose where to play for reasons other than just money.

The argument leading up to free agency was that the players wanted to be able to offer their services to any team and take the best price. But when price differences between one team and another is sometimes rooted in years 4-5-6 of a contract that may never be reached, the only real interest is whether to play for a particular team. So you get a funneling affect. Players gravitated to a select few teams. The teams that are already successful. Because in years past, your value in future contracts has almost always been associated with your previous team's success. The only major outlier in that concept was Barry Sanders who played for a team that never did much but most of the league can agree was one of the best players of his time.

But this gravitation has become most notable in the NBA where fewer roster and starting spots and how much impact each player has and that there is an individual maximum that makes the decision where to play entirely not about money. But, it's become an issue in the NFL wher ethe New England Patriots became the retirement waiting room as players searching for a ring gravitate for the sure thing in exchange for shorter lower paying contracts or the hopes they can flip a one or two year deal there into something bigger.



Free Agency has proven the problem we already see in HS. Kids, not all, but enough, will gravitate toward the teams with the best chance of winning if that is their specific goal. Would a kid in Youngstown really want to play for East when they know they're athletic enough to play consistently for Ursuline or Mooney? Or a kid from Boardman, Austintown, Struthers, etc? If you remove personal attachment to playing for a particular team, then the only argument on where to play is where to win.
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  #70  
Old 03-15-17, 07:10 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh I don't have any kids playing, so it would be awfully hard for them to be better at anything. UH the kids at your school have been to camps and have had great coaching and diet counselors ,and great parental support. Uh most of the kids in public schools have none of that. Uh you guys win, but it is not because of talent.
answer the question
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  #71  
Old 03-15-17, 07:13 AM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cali_Eagle View Post
If Rosecrans only has a 16 man roster, maybe it's time for Ohio to start an 8 man and even a 6 man division. Then some of the smaller schools might be able to start teams (if they don't have them now) and play amongst themselves in realistic and fairer competition.

Of course, in thinking about it a little, some large inner city schools have very small rosters too. So you might have to have 2 divisions in case one of them decided to play 6 or 8 man. Maybe you'd need an enrollment cutoff for playing 6 or 8.
I guess. On the other hand, they could just play in D7 with all the other teams with 16 man rosters.
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  #72  
Old 03-15-17, 12:46 PM
Flying Wedge Flying Wedge is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh, nah we don't need to "level the playing field," just bump up every private school 2 divisions.
There are times I read certain posts and I'm left wondering if the author of the post knows anything at all about scholastic sports. This is one of those times.

Take as an example Ashtabula St. John. They're hard pressed to win two games every year and are one of the smallest football-playing schools in the state. And yet you advocate moving them up two divisions to DV? I could cite other examples of this ludicrous proposal, but I think you get the point.

Go back to the drawing board.
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  #73  
Old 03-15-17, 01:04 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Originally Posted by Flying Wedge View Post
There are times I read certain posts and I'm left wondering if the author of the post knows anything at all about scholastic sports. This is one of those times.

Take as an example Ashtabula St. John. They're hard pressed to win two games every year and are one of the smallest football-playing schools in the state. And yet you advocate moving them up two divisions to DV? I could cite other examples of this ludicrous proposal, but I think you get the point.

Go back to the drawing board.
Uh tell me about Lasalle,Hoban,StVinny,Clev Benny,TolCatholic,Watterson,Desales,Mooney,Ursulin e,Hartley,Alter,Caton CentralCath,etc.
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  #74  
Old 03-15-17, 01:18 PM
Baseball4Life! Baseball4Life! is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh tell me about Lasalle,Hoban,StVinny,Clev Benny,TolCatholic,Watterson,Desales,Mooney,Ursulin e,Hartley,Alter,Caton CentralCath,etc.
I would rather see public schools drop a division.
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  #75  
Old 03-15-17, 01:47 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh tell me about Lasalle,Hoban,StVinny,Clev Benny,TolCatholic,Watterson,Desales,Mooney,Ursulin e,Hartley,Alter,Caton CentralCath,etc.
and what percentage of private schools are those?
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  #76  
Old 03-15-17, 01:48 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh tell me about Lasalle,Hoban,StVinny,Clev Benny,TolCatholic,Watterson,Desales,Mooney,Ursulin e,Hartley,Alter,Caton CentralCath,etc.
That's 10-15 schools. There are probably 15 Catholic D1 schools. What about the other 40-50 schools?
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  #77  
Old 03-15-17, 01:49 PM
Flying Wedge Flying Wedge is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh tell me about Lasalle,Hoban,StVinny,Clev Benny,TolCatholic,Watterson,Desales,Mooney,Ursulin e,Hartley,Alter,Caton CentralCath,etc.
LOL.....this is the best reply you could come up with to answer my question? Let us know if you come up with any other "brilliant" proposals. Maybe you'll think of one that makes sense. Try real hard.
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  #78  
Old 03-15-17, 04:32 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Originally Posted by Sykotyk View Post
Actually, you completely missed your point.
...
Free Agency has proven the problem we already see in HS. Kids, not all, but enough, will gravitate toward the teams with the best chance of winning if that is their specific goal. Would a kid in Youngstown really want to play for East when they know they're athletic enough to play consistently for Ursuline or Mooney? Or a kid from Boardman, Austintown, Struthers, etc? If you remove personal attachment to playing for a particular team, then the only argument on where to play is where to win.
So, 14 teams have won, with one having one 5 times, when there are 32 teams. My point is still valid.

And how many kids who decide to play at a probable winner are "enough?" In football, one guy can sometimes make a difference at the right position, but it's rarely one guy.

The more important questions are:

1) Schools don't "own" any students/athletes/musicians/whatever. We should have some freedom to choose where we want to get an education, including the athletic part of our education.

2) Private schools cost significant money for a student to attend, despite the ridiculous beliefs of some to the contrary. And in football, there aren't 60 or more players on any kind of "scholarships." From a player's family's perspective, public schools are free or almost free (private schools usually have pay-to-play also).

3) Even with the watering down provisions in the NFL, 13 teams out of 32 never won a championship, and one team has won 5 times in the watered down years. My belief is that you will see similar results with CBP. Good teams with good coaches, players, parents, staff, etc., will still be good teams with all those going for them. And the NBA is an entirely different situation, where one guy or two guys can basically be the successful parts of an entire franchise. That would be more applicable in high school basketball, but certainly not in football.

The bottom line is that CBP is an ineffective "solution" chasing a non-existent "problem."
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  #79  
Old 03-15-17, 04:39 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
That's 10-15 schools. There are probably 15 Catholic D1 schools. What about the other 40-50 schools?
Uh no, there are 5 D1 catholic schools and they dominate division one. Uh in fact Moeller and Iggy are 3% of D1 and they have won 45% of the state titles. Last 24 years 17 private school champions and 7 public school champions in D1.Obviously private schools have a large advantage.
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  #80  
Old 03-15-17, 04:49 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Originally Posted by Flying Wedge View Post
LOL.....this is the best reply you could come up with to answer my question? Let us know if you come up with any other "brilliant" proposals. Maybe you'll think of one that makes sense. Try real hard.
Uh I would maintain that all my posts are "brilliant", but you know what they say one mans junk is another mans treasure.
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  #81  
Old 03-15-17, 05:00 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
That's 10-15 schools. There are probably 15 Catholic D1 schools. What about the other 40-50 schools?
And Moeller, St. X, St. Ed, St. Iggy, Elder. I believe those are the only 5 Catholic schools in D1.

In last year's playoffs, I counted 4 private schools out of 32 that made the playoffs in D1.

1 private of 32 in D2.

5 privates of 32 in D3.

5 privates of 32 in D4.

2 privates of 32 in D5.

3 privates of 32 in D6.

2 privates of 32 in D7.

That's 22 of the 72 or so private schools that play football even made the playoffs last year. That's 30.56% of the private schools.

And that means 202 of the 648 (or so) public schools that play football made the playoffs. That's 31.17% of the public schools that made the playoffs.

It's hard to imagine a more even playing field than 31% of each group getting to play in the postseason.

But CBP will possibly bump up one division around 50 of the 72 private schools who didn't make the playoffs, so that they certainly won't have a chance in the future. And CBP doesn't affect D1, except possibly to move the only private school that made the playoffs in D2 up to D1 (although that may not happen).

CBP will likely give Divisions 4, 5, 6 and 7 to the MAC every year, and make Divisions 2 and 3 more competitive. Division 1 will not be affected much if at all.

Sorry, but I don't see a problem. Or a "solution."
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  #82  
Old 03-15-17, 07:43 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh no, there are 5 D1 catholic schools and they dominate division one. Uh in fact Moeller and Iggy are 3% of D1 and they have won 45% of the state titles. Last 24 years 17 private school champions and 7 public school champions in D1.Obviously private schools have a large advantage.
And your suggestion to bump up all the other private schools will do what, exactly, to correct this issue with D1?
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  #83  
Old 03-15-17, 07:54 PM
IcyCoolDevil IcyCoolDevil is offline
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Competitive Balance will only move two private schools up. Chaminade-Julienne from 4 to 3 and Cincinnati Summit Country Day from 6 to 5.
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  #84  
Old 03-16-17, 04:28 AM
tom 48 tom 48 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
And your suggestion to bump up all the other private schools will do what, exactly, to correct this issue with D1?
Obviously,they will have to schedule Alabama.
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  #85  
Old 03-16-17, 09:40 AM
stallionfan8989 stallionfan8989 is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh no, there are 5 D1 catholic schools and they dominate division one. Uh in fact Moeller and Iggy are 3% of D1 and they have won 45% of the state titles. Last 24 years 17 private school champions and 7 public school champions in D1.Obviously private schools have a large advantage.
You are correct! The private school kids and their parents are willing to do what it takes to be successful. The I just drop my kid off at practice, do not do any fund raising and expect them to win a State Title frame of mine does not exist when you actually have to pay for the education.
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  #86  
Old 03-16-17, 03:56 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Baseball4Life! View Post
I would rather see public schools drop a division.
Are we creating a division 8 then? And I am sure d7 and d6 really look forward to marion local and Coldwater dropping down a division.
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  #87  
Old 03-16-17, 05:49 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Originally Posted by stallionfan8989 View Post
You are correct! The private school kids and their parents are willing to do what it takes to be successful. The I just drop my kid off at practice, do not do any fund raising and expect them to win a State Title frame of mine does not exist when you actually have to pay for the education.
Uh wow finally we have solved the question of why private schools win so many titles.Its the parents! Champion fund raisers, equals state titles.Uh it was so obvious, cant believe I didn't see it. So in order to win titles, you have to pay for the education.Uh I would argue that a large percentage of the private school star players, pay zero to attend their schools.Phony leadership or some other bovine excrement schollys.
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  #88  
Old 03-16-17, 06:41 PM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh I would argue that a large percentage of the private school star players, pay zero to attend their schools.Phony leadership or some other bovine excrement schollys.
And in yet another Shocking Turn of Events, you would be wrong.
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  #89  
Old 03-16-17, 07:47 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
And Moeller, St. X, St. Ed, St. Iggy, Elder. I believe those are the only 5 Catholic schools in D1.

In last year's playoffs, I counted 4 private schools out of 32 that made the playoffs in D1.

1 private of 32 in D2.

5 privates of 32 in D3.

5 privates of 32 in D4.

2 privates of 32 in D5.

3 privates of 32 in D6.

2 privates of 32 in D7.

That's 22 of the 72 or so private schools that play football even made the playoffs last year. That's 30.56% of the private schools.

And that means 202 of the 648 (or so) public schools that play football made the playoffs. That's 31.17% of the public schools that made the playoffs.

It's hard to imagine a more even playing field than 31% of each group getting to play in the postseason.

But CBP will possibly bump up one division around 50 of the 72 private schools who didn't make the playoffs, so that they certainly won't have a chance in the future. And CBP doesn't affect D1, except possibly to move the only private school that made the playoffs in D2 up to D1 (although that may not happen).

CBP will likely give Divisions 4, 5, 6 and 7 to the MAC every year, and make Divisions 2 and 3 more competitive. Division 1 will not be affected much if at all.

Sorry, but I don't see a problem. Or a "solution."
Uh as I recall, there were 7 state championship games and private schools won 5 of the titles. Uh 650 or so public schools playing football,and 72 private schools playing football. Uh hello,Houston, we have a problem.
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  #90  
Old 03-16-17, 07:51 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FossyWriter8 View Post
I've read a lot of idiotic statements on the Internet over the past two decades, and the above bolded statement is right up there near the top of that list.
Uh, maybe you read too much.Uh everybody is good at something. Uh I'm number one!
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