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  #31  
Old 03-08-17, 04:28 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clarkgriswold View Post
They really should just mark the kids at birth. Parents choose and name and a system. The kids get a crucifix or circle tattoo and they're locked in for life.
Uh nah, just bump up every private school two divisions, and bingo problem solved.
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  #32  
Old 03-08-17, 04:31 PM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh nah, just bump up every private school two divisions, and bingo problem solved.
I'm sure the Rosecrans' of the world will love playing in D5 with a 16 man roster.

Good call.
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  #33  
Old 03-08-17, 05:01 PM
bkmk1 bkmk1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flood View Post
It will definitely do something. Fix..no. Improve the system? Matters what your agenda is.
You say my agenda. And that is accurate and the following reasons are why I say competitive balance will do nothing.

1. I want Privates vs Privates and Publics vs. Publics come playoff time.
2. I want the best teams in the playoffs. Not teams sitting home week 11 that are clearly better than teams playing week 11. The Harbin system/formula is very flawed.

So IMHO, competitive balance will not fix or make anything better (based on "my agenda") as you call it.
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  #34  
Old 03-08-17, 06:07 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Originally Posted by bkmk1 View Post
You say my agenda. And that is accurate and the following reasons are why I say competitive balance will do nothing.

1. I want Privates vs Privates and Publics vs. Publics come playoff time.
2. I want the best teams in the playoffs. Not teams sitting home week 11 that are clearly better than teams playing week 11. The Harbin system/formula is very flawed.

So IMHO, competitive balance will not fix or make anything better (based on "my agenda") as you call it.
Uh obviously the Harbin System is flawed but nothing is perfect.I don't know if you were around prior to the Harbins being installed but many,many, excellent teams got no shot to get to the playoffs. Uh paper titles mean nothing and we all know what opinions are like. Since the present system was installed, very few deserving teams have been left out.
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  #35  
Old 03-08-17, 07:04 PM
bkmk1 bkmk1 is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh obviously the Harbin System is flawed but nothing is perfect.I don't know if you were around prior to the Harbins being installed but many,many, excellent teams got no shot to get to the playoffs. Uh paper titles mean nothing and we all know what opinions are like. Since the present system was installed, very few deserving teams have been left out.
I 100% agree with you about paper titles. Harbin is also 100% better than what we have in PA. But the Ohio football I go see is much better than the football we have in Erie. I know that no system is perfect, but I have seen many times where teams have been left out by Harbin that were absolutely no question better than teams that got in. That doesn't sit well with me. And most of the time it's the privates that go play some brutal schedules, some by choice, some not by choice (due to no one will play them). Regardless, Harbin is the choice of Ohio to decide their playoff teams, and I love coming over every week to watch Ohio football, so I have learned to just go with it.
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  #36  
Old 03-09-17, 05:02 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Originally Posted by fish82 View Post
I'm sure the Rosecrans' of the world will love playing in D5 with a 16 man roster.

Good call.
Uh, yeah, and Hoban,StVinny,Clev Benny,Tol Central Cath,Watterson, and Desales , all in D1 would be a hoot also.
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  #37  
Old 03-09-17, 05:54 PM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh, yeah, and Hoban,StVinny,Clev Benny,Tol Central Cath,Watterson, and Desales , all in D1 would be a hoot also.
Rosecrans hasn't done sht in D7, but you're willing to watch them stack up dead bodies in D5 so you can get your rocks off watching a team that's 24-37 in D3 with one playoff win the past 6 years get cranked in D1?

Weird.
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  #38  
Old 03-09-17, 06:19 PM
aged jock aged jock is offline
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Originally Posted by fish82 View Post
Rosecrans hasn't done sht in D7, but you're willing to watch them stack up dead bodies in D5 so you can get your rocks off watching a team that's 24-37 in D3 with one playoff win the past 6 years get cranked in D1?

Weird.
Although the differences between public and private were all created by publics, guys like Hoser see the "solution" is to simply beat the privates into being non-competitive. It's insanity, but it's all he's got.
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  #39  
Old 03-09-17, 06:46 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
Although the differences between public and private were all created by publics, guys like Hoser see the "solution" is to simply beat the privates into being non-competitive. It's insanity, but it's all he's got.
Uh, when 72 of 720 members win 40% of the state titles, uh somehow non-competitive just doesn't compute. Uh the definition of insanity pretty much applies to the situation of high school football in Ohio.
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  #40  
Old 03-09-17, 08:25 PM
Spread All Day Spread All Day is online now
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Originally Posted by fish82 View Post


Bye indeed.
Thanks don't argue.
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  #41  
Old 03-14-17, 05:51 AM
ricotree55 ricotree55 is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh, when 72 of 720 members win 40% of the state titles, uh somehow non-competitive just doesn't compute. Uh the definition of insanity pretty much applies to the situation of high school football in Ohio.
Don't the publics need the votes of the private school parents to pass the school levies? Do you think the implementation of competitive balance will improve the chances that levies will pass? There are many good public school districts. Do you believe they should have their own tournaments?
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  #42  
Old 03-14-17, 06:47 AM
dograt dograt is offline
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^^Tough question. Private school parents are such a minority that it would seem they're 'no' vote wouldn't shift things too much. I would bet, however, they are very involved and likely to be in the part of the population that actually votes. So they might be a bigger percentage of voters than expected.
Now, how many of them actually care that their soccer team went from d2 to d1 enough to vote down a school levy? Big issue for sports, seems like a petty issue when voting for levies.
If levies start to fail because private school parents are upset about CBP, I'd be surprised and more than a little disappointed in those parents.
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  #43  
Old 03-14-17, 07:19 AM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Originally Posted by Spread All Day View Post
Thanks don't argue.
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  #44  
Old 03-14-17, 07:35 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh, when 72 of 720 members win 40% of the state titles, uh somehow non-competitive just doesn't compute. Uh the definition of insanity pretty much applies to the situation of high school football in Ohio.
What number should that be? 180? 360? 720?

We can't legislate your kids being better at sports.
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  #45  
Old 03-14-17, 08:37 AM
Cardinal Nation Cardinal Nation is offline
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Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
We can't legislate your kids being better at sports.
No, but we can put schools in a position to succeed against more equal sized, numbered and strength having teams. Also we can better challenge the teams that have it relatively easier playing in a lower division tournament than they're capable of playing in.

Nobody is asking for equality of outcome, but denying that there should be equality of opportunity isn't tenable.
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  #46  
Old 03-14-17, 08:53 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal Nation View Post
No, but we can put schools in a position to succeed against more equal sized, numbered and strength having teams. Also we can better challenge the teams that have it relatively easier playing in a lower division tournament than they're capable of playing in.

Nobody is asking for equality of outcome, but denying that there should be equality of opportunity isn't tenable.
Hoser is

That's why I replied to his comment

Also, this is ALL ABOUT EQUALITY OF OUTCOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT'S THE OUTCOME THAT PEOPLE ARE ALL UPSET ABOUT. IF WE DIDN'T KEEP SCORE AND NO ONE CARED WHO WON OR LOST THIS WOULDN'T BE AN ISSUE! WAKE UP!!!!!!!!

DON'T PLAY STUPID
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  #47  
Old 03-14-17, 08:57 AM
Cardinal Nation Cardinal Nation is offline
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Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Hoser is

That's why I replied to his comment

Also, this is ALL ABOUT EQUALITY OF OUTCOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT'S THE OUTCOME THAT PEOPLE ARE ALL UPSET ABOUT. IF WE DIDN'T KEEP SCORE AND NO ONE CARED WHO WON OR LOST THIS WOULDN'T BE AN ISSUE! WAKE UP!!!!!!!!

DON'T PLAY STUPID
Equality of outcome would be private schools winning between 1 and 2 titles in each division every 10 years. Nobody thinks that is desirable or realistic.
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  #48  
Old 03-14-17, 09:00 AM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cardinal Nation View Post
Nobody is asking for equality of outcome,
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  #49  
Old 03-14-17, 09:12 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardinal Nation View Post
Equality of outcome would be private schools winning between 1 and 2 titles in each division every 10 years. Nobody thinks that is desirable or realistic.
get out
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  #50  
Old 03-14-17, 09:16 AM
Cardinal Nation Cardinal Nation is offline
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Sorry gals, you're just going to have to start playing teams that aren't even as good as you, just not as bad as the teams you were playing. Keep crying about it if you think it will help.
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  #51  
Old 03-14-17, 09:23 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Originally Posted by Cardinal Nation View Post
Sorry gals, you're just going to have to start playing teams that aren't even as good as you, just not as bad as the teams you were playing. Keep crying about it if you think it will help.
so what's your point exactly?
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  #52  
Old 03-14-17, 09:47 AM
stallionfan8989 stallionfan8989 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cardinal Nation View Post
No, but we can put schools in a position to succeed against more equal sized, numbered and strength having teams. Also we can better challenge the teams that have it relatively easier playing in a lower division tournament than they're capable of playing in.

Nobody is asking for equality of outcome, but denying that there should be equality of opportunity isn't tenable.
How DENSE. Please demonstrate where legislating "fairness" is possible in the real world. If so then let's start with something that actually matters in this country like the uninsured and people with no food. This baloney measure has taken place due to one reason. The majority of OHSAA members who are public schools continued to whine that they could not compete and they DESERVE a STATE TITLE handed to them because they could not earn one legit. If you cannot overcome adversity then you really do not deserve a STATE TITLE. What a shame.!
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  #53  
Old 03-14-17, 10:28 AM
Cardinal Nation Cardinal Nation is offline
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Originally Posted by stallionfan8989 View Post
How DENSE. Please demonstrate where legislating "fairness" is possible in the real world. If so then let's start with something that actually matters in this country like the uninsured and people with no food. This baloney measure has taken place due to one reason. The majority of OHSAA members who are public schools continued to whine that they could not compete and they DESERVE a STATE TITLE handed to them because they could not earn one legit. If you cannot overcome adversity then you really do not deserve a STATE TITLE. What a shame.!

That's right Stallionfan, let it all out. A good cry always helps. Don't worry, you'll still have advantages over your competition, just not as large as you're accustomed to!
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  #54  
Old 03-14-17, 10:29 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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The problem with using statistics to support your argument in the CBP area is that you can make statistics say pretty much what you want them to. The argument that Hoser and others supporting CBP have chanted, ad nauseum, like a mantra is "72 of 720 schools win 40% of the championships". While this is true, this is also misleading. It's not the 72 private schools that have won all the titles, its probably more like 20-25 of the private schools have won them. But let's "punish" all the private schools for the success of the 1/3 with state-level football programs. But, then if you look at the public schools, I'll bet you'll find over the past 10-11 years there are probably 20-25 public school programs who have won state titles. I'll wager that over that 10-11 years you'll find that probably 40 or so total schools have won the 70 or so titles. And I'll bet about half of them were won by public schools. If these numbers are born out, then 20 of the 72 private schools have won about 35 titles and 20 of the 648 public schools have won about 35 titles. I'm not sure of the numbers, but I'd be surprised if they were too far off. And the big lie about CBP is that it will open the door for more public schools to have the opportunity to win titles; when, in reality, it will likely be the same 20 public schools who will be winning even a larger percentage of the titles. Which is the more outlandish statistic; that 72 of 720 teams win 40% of the titles or that 40 of 720 teams win 100% of the titles? Statistics will say what you want them to say.

Last edited by Irish60; 03-14-17 at 11:11 AM.
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  #55  
Old 03-14-17, 11:48 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
The problem with using statistics to support your argument in the CBP area is that you can make statistics say pretty much what you want them to. The argument that Hoser and others supporting CBP have chanted, ad nauseum, like a mantra is "72 of 720 schools win 40% of the championships". While this is true, this is also misleading. It's not the 72 private schools that have won all the titles, its probably more like 20-25 of the private schools have won them. But let's "punish" all the private schools for the success of the 1/3 with state-level football programs. But, then if you look at the public schools, I'll bet you'll find over the past 10-11 years there are probably 20-25 public school programs who have won state titles. I'll wager that over that 10-11 years you'll find that probably 40 or so total schools have won the 70 or so titles. And I'll bet about half of them were won by public schools. If these numbers are born out, then 20 of the 72 private schools have won about 35 titles and 20 of the 648 public schools have won about 35 titles. I'm not sure of the numbers, but I'd be surprised if they were too far off. And the big lie about CBP is that it will open the door for more public schools to have the opportunity to win titles; when, in reality, it will likely be the same 20 public schools who will be winning even a larger percentage of the titles. Which is the more outlandish statistic; that 72 of 720 teams win 40% of the titles or that 40 of 720 teams win 100% of the titles? Statistics will say what you want them to say.
Interesting note...In the past 10-15 years - really since the playoffs were expanded to 8 teams per region - the teams with the most state titles have been public schools (from the same league).

But you make a good point even if your numbers aren't exact...they are close enough for your point to be valid. Only a small percentage of schools win titles every year...and over time. It's special to win a state title. It should be. Otherwise, go back to the polls so voters can spread the trophies around each year.

CBP may move some teams around. It may move the local private school that is someone's personal boogeyman into another division. But it won't do a dang thing to help bad teams become good. And the good teams will still be good.
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  #56  
Old 03-14-17, 11:52 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Cardinal Nation View Post
No, but we can put schools in a position to succeed against more equal sized, numbered and strength having teams. Also we can better challenge the teams that have it relatively easier playing in a lower division tournament than they're capable of playing in.

Nobody is asking for equality of outcome, but denying that there should be equality of opportunity isn't tenable.
Pretty sure everyone has the same opportunity when practices start in August. The opportunity to play football for their school and compete for the state title. Unfortunately for most teams, competing for a state title isn't realistic. CBP won't do anything to help them.
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  #57  
Old 03-14-17, 02:57 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Originally Posted by ricotree55 View Post
Don't the publics need the votes of the private school parents to pass the school levies? Do you think the implementation of competitive balance will improve the chances that levies will pass? There are many good public school districts. Do you believe they should have their own tournaments?
Uh #1 no,#2 no,#3no. Uh I think every private school should be bumped up 2 divisions. Problem solved.
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  #58  
Old 03-14-17, 03:01 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Hoser is

That's why I replied to his comment

Also, this is ALL ABOUT EQUALITY OF OUTCOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT'S THE OUTCOME THAT PEOPLE ARE ALL UPSET ABOUT. IF WE DIDN'T KEEP SCORE AND NO ONE CARED WHO WON OR LOST THIS WOULDN'T BE AN ISSUE! WAKE UP!!!!!!!!

DON'T PLAY STUPID
Uh anyone who looks at the state title breakdown in the state of Ohio, with any sense of fairness, could see something is not right.
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  #59  
Old 03-14-17, 03:05 PM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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Originally Posted by cardinal nation View Post

that's right stallionfan, let it all out. A good cry always helps. Don't worry, you'll still have advantages over your competition, just not as large as you're accustomed to!
+2
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  #60  
Old 03-14-17, 05:14 PM
Cali_Eagle Cali_Eagle is offline
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Originally Posted by fish82 View Post
I'm sure the Rosecrans' of the world will love playing in D5 with a 16 man roster.

Good call.
If Rosecrans only has a 16 man roster, maybe it's time for Ohio to start an 8 man and even a 6 man division. Then some of the smaller schools might be able to start teams (if they don't have them now) and play amongst themselves in realistic and fairer competition.

Of course, in thinking about it a little, some large inner city schools have very small rosters too. So you might have to have 2 divisions in case one of them decided to play 6 or 8 man. Maybe you'd need an enrollment cutoff for playing 6 or 8.
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