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  #1  
Old 02-23-17, 02:42 PM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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Why are there unattached and club runners on Milesplit's indoor state rankings?

The latest indoor state meet performance list is littered with individuals who ran unattached or for a club. However, per the OATCCC's indoor state meet guidelines, "Only athletes obtaining marks while representing their official school name are included on the performance list. Athletes listed as unattached or coached by a team not meeting the previously stated criteria are not eligible. No club affiliated or unattached athletes will be listed or are eligible to compete."

http://oatccc.com/indoor-track/champ...formation.aspx

When will these athletes be removed from Milesplit's indoor state meet rankings so we can actually see who's eligible in each event?
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  #2  
Old 02-23-17, 02:54 PM
PCTigerTrackCoach PCTigerTrackCoach is offline
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They will be removed for sure... They have to be affiliated with a school otherwise they can't run
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Old 02-23-17, 03:06 PM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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Shouldn't they already be removed though? Coaches with eligible athletes hoping to compete should know where their athletes actually stand in the rankings. One example would be the top boys D1 60m dash runner. Despite competing unattached when he ran his performance, he's currently listed on the indoor state OATCCC performance list. The 60m results from that meet are here: http://tfresultsdata.deltatiming.com...161209F002.htm

I could have cited a number of examples, not just that one. This situation obviously needs to be fixed before the final performance lists are released next week. Is the OATCCC asleep at the switch here?
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Old 02-23-17, 04:59 PM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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Unfortunately, some of these athletes were listed as "unattached" but were representing their school. They wore school uniform and their coach was at the meet.
Because their parent (or themselves) entered them through directathletics (or however) and whoever entered them into the meet was not listed under that school name/password, the results listed them as "unattached".
That is why you may have a kid under the school name one week and "unnattached" the next.
I also believe that some were listed under their school affiliation, but no coach, or anyone approved by the school board, was at the meet(s)....only the parent, who probably used the coach's password to get into the meet.

so, which kids do you let in? those who competed for the school but were labeled "unnattached" or those who competed on their own, but know how to be affiliated in the results? Or neither?

Very difficult for the OATCCC to monitor IMO.
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Old 02-23-17, 05:04 PM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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the athlete in question, 60 meter dash #1, ran that time agaist college kids. That maybe the reason the time is bogus IMO. I think the qualifier should be done against high school competition (or younger)
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  #6  
Old 02-23-17, 06:11 PM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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Unattached performances are not eligible for the meet. The OATCCC's own rules couldn't be more clear about this. Another example is the leader in the boys 1600 in D1. He competed unattached and this is ineligible for the meet.

Read the OATCCC's site, there's no gray area here.
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  #7  
Old 02-23-17, 08:31 PM
Run4Life Run4Life is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjp82 View Post
Unattached performances are not eligible for the meet. The OATCCC's own rules couldn't be more clear about this. Another example is the leader in the boys 1600 in D1. He competed unattached and this is ineligible for the meet.

Read the OATCCC's site, there's no gray area here.
Actually the unattached performance would not be usable, but if the athlete competed as a member of a school team that has been approved by the school board, that athlete can be eligible if he/she has an exceptable performance while a member of the team.
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Old 02-23-17, 08:45 PM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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^ Correct, but that doesn't explain why the INELIGIBLE performances are listed in the Milesplit indoor state rankings as opposed to performances one could actually use to gain entry into the indoor state meet.

Again, to use my example above: The current leader in the D1 boys 1600m (not including converted mile times) competed unattached when he ran that time (4:16.33). Here are the results from the meet: http://lightningtiming.com/results/20170212/Results.htm

Thus, that performance needs to be taken off Milesplit's indoor state leaderboard because it is ineligible per the OATCCC's stated guidelines.

I don't intend to single anyone out; there are loads of examples I could use here. Perhaps I will post more in the coming days.
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Old 02-23-17, 08:53 PM
madman madman is offline
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You are missing the point. Just because it says "unattached" next to the athlete's name doesn't meet they didn't run for their school, in the school uniform, and under the supervision of a school board approved coach. That is an indication of the meet registration process for that particular meet, which varies from meet to meet.

The previous poster is correct. Just because the school name is next to an athlete's name doesn't mean they competed for their school in the school's uniform while under the supervision of a school board approved coach.
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Old 02-23-17, 09:02 PM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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First of all, in both examples I've cited, the athlete did not wear their school's uniform.

Second of all, if the athlete competed "unattached" in a given meet, they officially did not compete for their school, so it truly doesn't matter whether they were wearing a school-issued uniform or being supervised by a board-approved coach. It's a moot point because, per the OATCCC's guidelines, "Only athletes obtaining marks while representing their official school name are included on the performance list. Athletes listed as unattached or coached by a team not meeting the previously stated criteria are not eligible."

THIS COULD NOT BE MORE CLEAR. If the athlete wasn't representing their official school name, they are ineligible for the indoor state meet. Stop acting like there's room for interpretation here.
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Old 02-23-17, 09:17 PM
madman madman is offline
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It would be hard for me to care any less about this meet, but what exactly does it mean to compete "unattached"? The label next to the athlete's name can be nearly meaningless as we've tried to explain. Simply having the school name next to the athlete's name doesn't necessarily mean anything more than the coach gave their password and username to the athlete, or is that what you are claiming is sufficient?
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Old 02-23-17, 09:31 PM
Finishtiming Finishtiming is offline
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This has been the case every year. An athletes parent has signed them up as unattached but milesplit system then would link them back to their team and they will show in the rankings. There are some schools or clubs listed as a club team and then it gets changed to their team name because their school does not want them to be listed as the school name so as to not allow parents to think that the school is paying entry fees. The reason OATCCC website has this listed as they do is to try to get the athletes to sign up as their team name. Some parents just do not understand what unattached means.
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  #13  
Old 02-23-17, 10:22 PM
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Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
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This thread and the thread about Milesplit rankings are prime examples of why I'm glad we don't use qualifying standards or performance lists to determine who advances during the outdoor season...
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Old 02-24-17, 07:22 AM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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Here's another one,, the #1 boys D1 long jumper competed unattached when he set his top mark. http://oh.milesplit.com/meets/248852...w#.WLAizWQrLR1

If the OATCCC continues to neglect this issue, a number of ELIGIBLE kids will be unfairly cheated out of competing at the indoor state meet.

The OATCCC didn't have to put the following passage in its indoor state meet guidelines: "Only athletes obtaining marks while representing their official school name are included on the performance list. Athletes listed as unattached or coached by a team not meeting the previously stated criteria are not eligible. No club affiliated or unattached athletes will be listed or are eligible to compete."

http://oatccc.com/indoor-track/champ...formation.aspx

But since they DID include that stipulation, they're obviously obligated to enforce it. Otherwise, why did my school waste money on OATCCC memberships and waste time entering athletes in accordance with the indoor state meet guidelines?

Again, there is no gray area in the following statement: Only athletes obtaining marks while representing their official school name are included on the performance list. Athletes listed as unattached or coached by a team not meeting the previously stated criteria are not eligible.

It's irrelevant whether the athlete was wearing a school uniform or being supervised by a school coach. If the athlete was listed as unattached, that performance cannot be used to gain entry into the indoor state meet. This has always been the case, and the indoor state meet eligibility guidelines are public knowledge.
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Old 02-24-17, 07:57 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Like others stated.....they are listed as unattached as a possible formality on who entered them in the meet.

I have a pole vaulter whos mom enters her in. She will go to the state meet with our coach and be entered as a team member. I would guess its kind of a formality what it states on the website
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Old 02-24-17, 08:24 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
Like others stated.....they are listed as unattached as a possible formality on who entered them in the meet.

I have a pole vaulter whos mom enters her in. She will go to the state meet with our coach and be entered as a team member. I would guess its kind of a formality what it states on the website
Bingo!

We do this all the time. We typically have athletes going to 3-4 meets on any given weekend with different coaches. We may bring our pole vaulters to Ohio State, sprinters to Findlay, distance runners to Spire for a larger track which is 4 hours away, and then we take kids on Sunday places because they have prior commitments on Saturdays.

With those different meets we have different coaches/parents entering athletes to try and get into meets. Some meets close up fast so we have 2-3 milesplit accounts going at the same time trying to get athletes entered. Some are coaches, parents, private coaches and some the athletes themselves.

The glory of indoor is that there is no BIG BROTHER watching over you. OATCCC is not in the business being the big government watch dog. I do not like big government or rules that limit what kids can do. Let them have fun and compete to try and better themselves instead of limiting their behavior and actions. They already have that in the classroom and most club sports.

If you are trying to get an athlete disqualified because his high school was not listed next to his/her name you have bigger issues in life and should not be in the education of athletes business. Bigger issues with yourself and your self esteem.
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Old 02-24-17, 09:37 AM
"David Thorne" "David Thorne" is offline
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Quote:
Here's another one,, the #1 boys D1 long jumper competed unattached when he set his top mark. http://oh.milesplit.com/meets/248852...w#.WLAizWQrLR1
That kid was only entered as unattached b/c no other kids wanted to go and the HC wasn't sure if he was gonna make it...I believe the coach did attend and talked to the meet director about getting him changed from "unattached" to Springfield HS...even if OATCCCC did "enforce" the eligibilty standards, that kid would still have the 2nd best jump...he jumped a 22' 6.75" at the OSU HS qualifier on 1/21/17
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Old 02-24-17, 10:03 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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kjb82 has some very good points.... but, just like many problems with Indoor Track, it comes back to the integrity of the kids, parents and coaches.
Here are some questions that may need answered.
1. How can the OATCCC monitor this better? - It would take time and $
2. Should a kid be taken off the list because mom hit the wrong button when entering them into a meet? - It happens
3. Should the oatccc not allow any new memberships at the meet?
(note: every year they get members at the meet, so that the new member's athlete can compete - this means that the athlete really was ineligible to qualify)
4. Should a kid be allowed to qualify just because mom entered them attached to the school... no school official or coach was at the meet and no school personal even knew they were competing until they saw their name on the list of State qualifiers. - This has happened to me.... I made sure he made the mark at a meet that I took him to before I would let him go to the state meet.
5. Should a kid who is failing 5 classes the 3rd 9-weeks be allowed to qualify, even though they will be academiccally ineligible to comped outdoors. - This also happened to me... I did not (declare) enter him into the State meet.
6. how about a relay team that competes for a school with one member who failed the 2nd 9-weeks (ineligable) OR has one member in 8th grade, OR has one member who graduated last year OR has one member who does not go to the same school as the 3 others? - I have seen this happen...in fact another school borrowed one of our kids for their relay so that they could run...luckily, they ran really slow.

These are just a few things that I know have happened that the OATCCC has neither the time or the man-power to monitor... and it's apparent that counting on the integrity of ALL the coaches/schools will not work.
That is why we do not put a lot of stock into Indoor track. We have had a few podium finishers and even State Champs for Indoor, but we don't even recognize them as "All-Ohio" or publicize it as much as Outdoor.

I will agree with Mr.Slippery - Standards in outdoor track would kill track for schools who do not have the means to seek out the best facilities and could really hurt those kids. and some coaches would do their best to "beat the system" by enter 2-3 meets then picking the best one to go to after checking the weather or what direction the wind is blowing.
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Old 02-24-17, 10:29 AM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Bingo!

We do this all the time. We typically have athletes going to 3-4 meets on any given weekend with different coaches. We may bring our pole vaulters to Ohio State, sprinters to Findlay, distance runners to Spire for a larger track which is 4 hours away, and then we take kids on Sunday places because they have prior commitments on Saturdays.

With those different meets we have different coaches/parents entering athletes to try and get into meets. Some meets close up fast so we have 2-3 milesplit accounts going at the same time trying to get athletes entered. Some are coaches, parents, private coaches and some the athletes themselves.

The glory of indoor is that there is no BIG BROTHER watching over you. OATCCC is not in the business being the big government watch dog. I do not like big government or rules that limit what kids can do. Let them have fun and compete to try and better themselves instead of limiting their behavior and actions. They already have that in the classroom and most club sports.

If you are trying to get an athlete disqualified because his high school was not listed next to his/her name you have bigger issues in life and should not be in the education of athletes business. Bigger issues with yourself and your self esteem.
If the OATCCC "is not in the business [of] being the big government watchdog," as you claim, that's great! But then they shouldn't bother stipulating any eligibility guidelines other than "The top 18 athletes who declare in each event will be eligible for the meet" or something of the sort. If they are going to go out of their way to say "No club affiliated or unattached athletes will be listed or are eligible to compete," as their website clearly states, then they need to follow through on it. Neglecting to do so would be hugely unfair to the athletes and teams who played by the rules, which have been public knowledge since the beginning of indoor season.

If the OATCCC allows athletes to use unattached performances to gain entry into the indoor state meet, then they should offer full refunds to all of their paid 2017 members. No one from my school attended the clinic; the SOLE reason we paid for OATCCC membership (and entered our athletes in meets under our school name) is so we could have the opportunity to enter athletes into the indoor state meet.

In summary: Because the OATCCC CHOSE to put "Athletes listed as unattached or coached by a team not meeting the previously stated criteria are not eligible" on its website (in bold, no less!), they must enforce this guideline out of fairness to those who followed the rules.

Don't get mad at me for pointing this out, get mad at the OATCCC for making the rule.
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Old 02-24-17, 10:34 AM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENA2 View Post
kjb82 has some very good points.... but, just like many problems with Indoor Track, it comes back to the integrity of the kids, parents and coaches.
Here are some questions that may need answered.
1. How can the OATCCC monitor this better? - It would take time and $
2. Should a kid be taken off the list because mom hit the wrong button when entering them into a meet? - It happens
3. Should the oatccc not allow any new memberships at the meet?
(note: every year they get members at the meet, so that the new member's athlete can compete - this means that the athlete really was ineligible to qualify)
4. Should a kid be allowed to qualify just because mom entered them attached to the school... no school official or coach was at the meet and no school personal even knew they were competing until they saw their name on the list of State qualifiers. - This has happened to me.... I made sure he made the mark at a meet that I took him to before I would let him go to the state meet.
5. Should a kid who is failing 5 classes the 3rd 9-weeks be allowed to qualify, even though they will be academiccally ineligible to comped outdoors. - This also happened to me... I did not (declare) enter him into the State meet.
6. how about a relay team that competes for a school with one member who failed the 2nd 9-weeks (ineligable) OR has one member in 8th grade, OR has one member who graduated last year OR has one member who does not go to the same school as the 3 others? - I have seen this happen...in fact another school borrowed one of our kids for their relay so that they could run...luckily, they ran really slow.

These are just a few things that I know have happened that the OATCCC has neither the time or the man-power to monitor... and it's apparent that counting on the integrity of ALL the coaches/schools will not work.
That is why we do not put a lot of stock into Indoor track. We have had a few podium finishers and even State Champs for Indoor, but we don't even recognize them as "All-Ohio" or publicize it as much as Outdoor.

I will agree with Mr.Slippery - Standards in outdoor track would kill track for schools who do not have the means to seek out the best facilities and could really hurt those kids. and some coaches would do their best to "beat the system" by enter 2-3 meets then picking the best one to go to after checking the weather or what direction the wind is blowing.
I believe you are grossly overcomplicating this matter. The OATCCC should simply enforce the rules it's chosen to create. Otherwise, why have the rules in the first place?
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Old 02-24-17, 11:17 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Why are we making a simple thing complicated?

The best part of the sport is that each kid gets to post a mark or a time and see it in a fair light against others. Who cares about all the when, what and where stuff.

Are they all HS kids?
Does their school and coach have membership status?
Did they complete their event fairly in a meet managed properly?

Those are the the things that we should consider....not what the OHSAA would do.
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Old 02-24-17, 11:35 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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kjb82, I am in agreement with you. But the OATCCC and Milesplt, Deltatiming, Finsihtiming, etc, are all separate entities. I would think that Milesplit could go in and take out all those who were "unattached" when hitting a certain mark..., but the OATCCC would need help... AND I AGREE WITH YOU...They should do it. Take them out.

However, I also think that there are other top (25) times on the lists that were achieved by: accademically ineligible students, students who were really unattached but entered with a school, Relays using one kid from a different affiliation, competing in a race with college kids and other, more suspect, things.

Make sure you address your concerns with your District Rep. to the OATCCC or contact the OATCCC President. I will as well.
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Old 02-24-17, 11:39 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Just kids wanting to compete. Relax and enjoy. Not sure I want to exclude a 4:16 1600 runner on a technicality.
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Old 02-24-17, 11:40 AM
"David Thorne" "David Thorne" is offline
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Quote:
Why are we making a simple thing complicated?

The best part of the sport is that each kid gets to post a mark or a time and see it in a fair light against others. Who cares about all the when, what and where stuff.

Are they all HS kids?
Does their school and coach have membership status?
Did they complete their event fairly in a meet managed properly?

Those are the the things that we should consider....not what the OHSAA would do.
I applaud this comment...but I totally understand where kjp82 is coming from with his argument...The leading D1 long jumper you mentioned above finished 2nd in the LJ & TJ to jumpers that were "club" participants at UK...who they competed under never came up after competition was over.
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Old 02-24-17, 12:00 PM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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ccrunner,
I think that's what kjb82 is taking about:

Are they all HS kids? -
I know I just took a kid off the list that graduated 2 years ago (competed under his brother's entry). How would the OATCCC know about this if I didn't catch it and contact mile split to take him off?

Does the school and coach have membership status? - NO
Some on the State rankings do NOT...until the day of the State Meet, yet they are on the lists,

Did they compete fairly in a meet managed properly?
Well, another thread discusses some chaos at some meets,,,I have not seen that, but have seen some entry marks at the world class level that in faster heats. it can be an advantage. (I would not say "unfair", but some would)

Finally, it's OATCCC's meet. the OHSAA does not want it (for now), so if the OATCCC puts guidelines on qualifiers, they should try to follow those guidelines.
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Old 02-24-17, 12:09 PM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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kjb82, I am in agreement with you. But the OATCCC and Milesplt, Deltatiming, Finsihtiming, etc, are all separate entities. I would think that Milesplit could go in and take out all those who were "unattached" when hitting a certain mark..., but the OATCCC would need help... AND I AGREE WITH YOU...They should do it. Take them out.

However, I also think that there are other top (25) times on the lists that were achieved by: accademically ineligible students, students who were really unattached but entered with a school, Relays using one kid from a different affiliation, competing in a race with college kids and other, more suspect, things.

Make sure you address your concerns with your District Rep. to the OATCCC or contact the OATCCC President. I will as well.
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Old 02-24-17, 12:12 PM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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Sorry for the confusion ENA. My primary disagreement with you is in regards to academic ineligibility and the like. Because the OATCCC does not have any guidelines pertaining to that, I don't see the point in focusing on it.

Meanwhile, I'm concerned about unattached and club runners because the OATCCC decided to enact a very specific rule about that. Both of us just want to see that rule enforced,,, or else why are any of us paying membership dues? As I've said a million times, no one forced the OATCCC to have this rule, but since they do, it's only fair to enforce it.

Moreover, they literally BOLDED that section of their website and made the wording absolutely unambiguous: "Only athletes obtaining marks while representing their official school name are included on the performance list. Athletes listed as unattached or coached by a team not meeting the previously stated criteria are not eligible. No club affiliated or unattached athletes will be listed or are eligible to compete."

I will be contacting my OATCCC district rep, and I'd encourage others to do the same. This isn't a technicality -- it's a very simple (and sensible) rule that was put in place for a reason. By not enforcing it, rule-abiding teams are being unjustly punished.
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Old 02-24-17, 12:19 PM
southernman southernman is offline
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meet all of the local eligibility requirements for participation on any OHSAA recognized athletic teams

Above are the academic standards listed by OATCCC
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Old 02-24-17, 12:20 PM
southernman southernman is offline
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To be eligible to participate in the OATCCC Indoor State Championships, an athlete must

be a competitor on a high school team where the athlete attends school.
be on a team approved and recognized by the local Board of Education (check with your athletic director).
wear a school issued uniforms.
meet all of the local eligibility requirements for participation on any OHSAA recognized athletic teams
be coached by a Board of Education recognized coach.
be coached by a paid member of the Ohio Association of Track and Cross Country Coaches.
be listed on the printed Verification Form, signed by the school’s athletic director or principal.
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Old 02-24-17, 12:36 PM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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Good catch southern man. Perhaps that issue is worth exploring as well. However, I'm mainly concerned with the unattached/club issue because it is emphasized on the site in bold and stated multiple times. But it's worth checking that all other competitors and teams are in compliance with OATCCC guidelines. I've already contacted my district rep and will be reaching out to the OATCCC administration shortly. There's absolutely no justification for having unattached performances on the indoor state performance list. Rule-abiding kids are being cheated out of a spot, potentially harming teams in the race for the state title.
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