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  #91  
Old 03-16-17, 08:00 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
40 teams have won 100% of the titles over the last 10-11 years. Half of them public schools. Do they get bumped up 2 divisions as well?
Uh, dude, there are 9 times more public schools in the state.The numbers just don't add up.
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  #92  
Old 03-16-17, 08:11 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sykotyk View Post
Actually, you completely missed your point.


The NFL didn't have free agency until 1993. Now, you might think the NFL is a good example, but there's two very big differences in NFL history.

Between the 1970 and 1992 seasons (when all Super Bowl participants were full members of the NFL and there was no free agency) there was 9 different champions.

In 1970, there were 26 teams. In 1974, they added Seattle and Tampa Bay. So, 9 teams won a title. And what's worse, is it was a string of repeat teams. Pittsburgh and San Francisco with 4 each, Raiders and Redskins with 3 each, Miami, Dallas, and N.Y. Giants with 2 each. And only Baltimore Colts and Chicago Bears managed to win a single title during the 26/28-team NFL after the merger.

9 Champions in 23 season.

With the advent of free agency in the 1993 season, things have changed. In 1995 they added Jacksonville and Carolina. In 1999 they added the Cleveland Browns. In 2002 they added the Houston Texans.

In the 24 since free agency, there's been 14 different champions. The most obvious is New England with their 5 under Brady and Bellichick. But, then there's Dallas and Denver with 3 each, Pittsburgh, N.Y. Giants, Green Bay and Baltimore with 2 each. But, what's impressive is the seven teams that won just once.

Now, 14 champions in 24 seasons.

But, there are a few caveats to this free agency. With the advent of free agency, teams still had players under contract. Their rights when the contracts expired changed, but they still had players.

The first four years of free agency were this: Dallas, Dallas, San Francisco, Dallas. It really wasn't until Green Bay was able to assemble a good team under free agency that you could say free agency had proven itself.

And San Francisco's win in SB29 was thanks entirely to blatantly violating the salary cap with a string of one-year deals and back-loaded deals they never intended to keep in order to grossly overpay for their last hurrah. They were in salary cap hell for years after both because of the NFL changing the rules and their own hubris at buying at a championship.

But, having said that, there's one thing free agency brought on that people didn't foresee. And that was that players who have reached their 'maximum pay' would then choose where to play for reasons other than just money.

The argument leading up to free agency was that the players wanted to be able to offer their services to any team and take the best price. But when price differences between one team and another is sometimes rooted in years 4-5-6 of a contract that may never be reached, the only real interest is whether to play for a particular team. So you get a funneling affect. Players gravitated to a select few teams. The teams that are already successful. Because in years past, your value in future contracts has almost always been associated with your previous team's success. The only major outlier in that concept was Barry Sanders who played for a team that never did much but most of the league can agree was one of the best players of his time.

But this gravitation has become most notable in the NBA where fewer roster and starting spots and how much impact each player has and that there is an individual maximum that makes the decision where to play entirely not about money. But, it's become an issue in the NFL wher ethe New England Patriots became the retirement waiting room as players searching for a ring gravitate for the sure thing in exchange for shorter lower paying contracts or the hopes they can flip a one or two year deal there into something bigger.



Free Agency has proven the problem we already see in HS. Kids, not all, but enough, will gravitate toward the teams with the best chance of winning if that is their specific goal. Would a kid in Youngstown really want to play for East when they know they're athletic enough to play consistently for Ursuline or Mooney? Or a kid from Boardman, Austintown, Struthers, etc? If you remove personal attachment to playing for a particular team, then the only argument on where to play is where to win.
Uh, comparing high school football with the NFL, is beyond stupid.
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  #93  
Old 03-16-17, 08:17 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom 48 View Post
Obviously,they will have to schedule Alabama.
Uh, nah just the Alabama freshman team.
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  #94  
Old 03-16-17, 09:18 PM
FossyWriter8 FossyWriter8 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh, maybe you read too much.Uh everybody is good at something. Uh I'm number one!
For starters, I'd say you can never read enough.
Secondly, I only consider your analysis of being No. 1 at being No. 2.
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  #95  
Old 03-16-17, 09:35 PM
Cali_Eagle Cali_Eagle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish82 View Post
I guess. On the other hand, they could just play in D7 with all the other teams with 16 man rosters.
I think the problem there would be that some inner city schools have very large numbers of boys to draw from. It would be pretty easy for one to put an "All-Star" (so to speak, obviously talking in very relative terms here) team (one drawn from hundreds of potentially eligible students) on the field to play against another 16 man roster that was drawn from 50 boys or even less.

A big city school with a small roster has resources they aren't necessarily drawing on or utilizing well in football is what I am saying here. I could see a city school with a 16 man roster competing fairly in D7 in 11 man football *with all present conditions remaining unchanged*. (Meaning continued apathy and low turnout amongst their students.) As long as turnout stays real low, it probably works out fine. The city team might even get pasted on the scoreboard. I think putting them in D7 all the time would (or could, potentially) change the turnout picture quickly.

Last edited by Cali_Eagle; 03-17-17 at 12:37 AM. Reason: clarity
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  #96  
Old 03-17-17, 07:16 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoser View Post
uh, dude, there are 9 times more public schools in the state.the numbers just don't add up.
how should they add up?
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  #97  
Old 03-17-17, 01:58 PM
Spaylaywathepi Spaylaywathepi is offline
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Problem? What problem? I don't see a problem.
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  #98  
Old 03-17-17, 04:36 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FossyWriter8 View Post
For starters, I'd say you can never read enough.
Secondly, I only consider your analysis of being No. 1 at being No. 2.
Uh we try harder
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  #99  
Old 03-17-17, 04:56 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baseball4Life! View Post
I would rather see public schools drop a division.
Uh that is an interesting proposal. If you look at it, makes a lot of sense.Uh attention OHSAA something that makes sense.
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  #100  
Old 03-17-17, 06:49 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish82 View Post
And in yet another Shocking Turn of Events, you would be wrong.
Uh it has been my experience that electricity is totally unpredictable. Uh its the path of least resistance.
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  #101  
Old 03-17-17, 07:09 PM
EagleGuy EagleGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FossyWriter8 View Post
For starters, I'd say you can never read enough.
Secondly, I only consider your analysis of being No. 1 at being No. 2.


I see what you did there!
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  #102  
Old 03-18-17, 05:50 AM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FossyWriter8 View Post
For starters, I'd say you can never read enough.
Secondly, I only consider your analysis of being No. 1 at being No. 2.
Uh, Depends
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  #103  
Old 03-18-17, 01:37 PM
TCSoup TCSoup is offline
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a city all star team that won a state championship to my knowledge has only
been successfully pulled off once and that was by the now closed cols. brookhaven in d2.
So to speak all the stars aligned for them that year and personally rooted for them to pull it off.
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  #104  
Old 03-18-17, 02:20 PM
Friday night light Friday night light is offline
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Sorry if this has already been brought up but if competitive balance is gonna be based on roster size what is to stop the big D1 schools from cutting kids or trimming rosters down in other "creative" ways??
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  #105  
Old 03-19-17, 08:21 AM
dograt dograt is offline
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the added numbers go by kids on roster (last years), but the initial number is still enrollment.

The real way to job the system is to bring in "recruits" all in the same year. You won't get kicked up until next year.

I could see teams cutting marginal players who don't live in district though. Especially in other sports. Tier 2 kids in football count as 2 extra kids; in Volleyball, Basketball, Baseball, & Softball = 5; Soccer = 6
The kid who sits on the end of the bench will live in the district!
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  #106  
Old 03-19-17, 11:07 AM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
And Moeller, St. X, St. Ed, St. Iggy, Elder. I believe those are the only 5 Catholic schools in D1.

In last year's playoffs, I counted 4 private schools out of 32 that made the playoffs in D1.

1 private of 32 in D2.

5 privates of 32 in D3.

5 privates of 32 in D4.

2 privates of 32 in D5.

3 privates of 32 in D6.

2 privates of 32 in D7.

That's 22 of the 72 or so private schools that play football even made the playoffs last year. That's 30.56% of the private schools.

And that means 202 of the 648 (or so) public schools that play football made the playoffs. That's 31.17% of the public schools that made the playoffs.

It's hard to imagine a more even playing field than 31% of each group getting to play in the postseason.

But CBP will possibly bump up one division around 50 of the 72 private schools who didn't make the playoffs, so that they certainly won't have a chance in the future. And CBP doesn't affect D1, except possibly to move the only private school that made the playoffs in D2 up to D1 (although that may not happen).

CBP will likely give Divisions 4, 5, 6 and 7 to the MAC every year, and make Divisions 2 and 3 more competitive. Division 1 will not be affected much if at all.

Sorry, but I don't see a problem. Or a "solution."
This is an excellent post! i didn't realize the percentages of how many make the playoffs from Public Vs. Private were so proportional to the number of schools in each category.
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  #107  
Old 03-19-17, 11:34 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kballer View Post
This is an excellent post! i didn't realize the percentages of how many make the playoffs from Public Vs. Private were so proportional to the number of schools in each category.
I agree. The discussion on these threads almost exclusively deal with who wins the titles. They don't look at the broader picture. Maybe because the numbers don't support their conclusions?
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  #108  
Old 03-19-17, 02:22 PM
Worm02 Worm02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh as I recall, there were 7 state championship games and private schools won 5 of the titles. Uh 650 or so public schools playing football,and 72 private schools playing football. Uh hello,Houston, we have a problem.
The "problems" are the reasons that many decided to send their kids to private school. Look at the cities where the dominate ones are located. Being from the Mahoning Valley, I can tell you that almost every school around here (both public & private) benefits from the fact that many in Youngstown decided to open enroll their kids outside of the city and I'm sure the same goes for other large cities. MAC schools don;t have that problem, which is why they usually dominate the lower divisions. Not only that, schools like Iggy, St. Eds, X, Elder, etc. spent years building & maintaining their foundations while many around them crumbled. Excellence in high school sports is often defined by the structure of the community that it's in (two-parent homes, economy, crime rate, etc). It's hit & miss in the steel mill cities which is why the "balance of power" has shifted well in the privates (and occasionally large suburbs) favor. I'm not sure that Coach Kyle would win as many state titles at Iggy with the same kids that Cleveland Glenville couldn't win with, even though the talent would probably be better. Iggy wins with discipline, which starts at home. The ones that don't have that, with the talent to match, usually won't beat them, St. Eds, X, Elder, etc.

To be the best, you have to beat the best, but there's reasons why certain kids go to certain schools. "Competitive balance" won't solve anything because the real problems with most publics go far beyond sports. FWIW, I'm a fan of a public school.
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  #109  
Old 03-19-17, 05:08 PM
hoser hoser is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aged jock View Post
And Moeller, St. X, St. Ed, St. Iggy, Elder. I believe those are the only 5 Catholic schools in D1.

In last year's playoffs, I counted 4 private schools out of 32 that made the playoffs in D1.

1 private of 32 in D2.

5 privates of 32 in D3.

5 privates of 32 in D4.

2 privates of 32 in D5.

3 privates of 32 in D6.

2 privates of 32 in D7.

That's 22 of the 72 or so private schools that play football even made the playoffs last year. That's 30.56% of the private schools.

And that means 202 of the 648 (or so) public schools that play football made the playoffs. That's 31.17% of the public schools that made the playoffs.

It's hard to imagine a more even playing field than 31% of each group getting to play in the postseason.

But CBP will possibly bump up one division around 50 of the 72 private schools who didn't make the playoffs, so that they certainly won't have a chance in the future. And CBP doesn't affect D1, except possibly to move the only private school that made the playoffs in D2 up to D1 (although that may not happen).

CBP will likely give Divisions 4, 5, 6 and 7 to the MAC every year, and make Divisions 2 and 3 more competitive. Division 1 will not be affected much if at all.

Sorry, but I don't see a problem. Or a "solution."
Uh you are assuming all the private schools are equally divided in each division in each region. Uh obviously not the case.
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  #110  
Old 03-20-17, 08:01 AM
IcyCoolDevil IcyCoolDevil is offline
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Originally Posted by dograt View Post
I could see teams cutting marginal players who don't live in district though. Especially in other sports. Tier 2 kids in football count as 2 extra kids; in Volleyball, Basketball, Baseball, & Softball = 5; Soccer = 6
The kid who sits on the end of the bench will live in the district!
This is an excellent point of a potential by-product of comp. bal.
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  #111  
Old 03-22-17, 03:05 PM
Spread All Day Spread All Day is online now
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Give the Catholics their own divisions. Like 3 of them. Perfect.
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  #112  
Old 03-22-17, 03:11 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Spread All Day View Post
Give the Catholics their own divisions. Like 3 of them. Perfect.
What about the non-Catholic, private schools?
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  #113  
Old 03-22-17, 05:18 PM
Spread All Day Spread All Day is online now
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Close em
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  #114  
Old 03-22-17, 07:29 PM
EagleGuy EagleGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh, Depends
Smooth move.
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  #115  
Old 03-22-17, 08:06 PM
tom 48 tom 48 is offline
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Over 6,000 posts on two separate threads. This begs the question: Anybody got anything new? Anyone? Bueller? Nope, didn't think so.
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  #116  
Old 03-22-17, 08:29 PM
22 Acacia Ave 22 Acacia Ave is offline
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^
and how many times have you posted, loser.
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  #117  
Old 03-23-17, 04:52 AM
tom 48 tom 48 is offline
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Originally Posted by 22 Acacia Ave View Post
^
and how many times have you posted, loser.
Since this topic was first posted over three years ago, six. This, BTW, is fewer than you have posted since you joined in December.
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  #118  
Old 03-23-17, 07:34 AM
IcyCoolDevil IcyCoolDevil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom 48 View Post
Over 6,000 posts on two separate threads. This begs the question: Anybody got anything new? Anyone? Bueller? Nope, didn't think so.
What are you expecting?? Any new posts are just back and forth like what you got. Everyone is waiting on April 6th and based on about a third of the comments on these threads people are going to be shaking their heads because they think nothing is going to be set until mid-season. But April 6th will set it. I did spend two weeks analyzing the enrollment numbers and the potential competitive balance adders and made predictions on the division splits, but got no responses.....which given some of what goes on here, I am grateful no one felt the need to call me names. So just nap away for two more weeks and then the pot will stir again.
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  #119  
Old 03-23-17, 08:05 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by IcyCoolDevil View Post
What are you expecting?? Any new posts are just back and forth like what you got. Everyone is waiting on April 6th and based on about a third of the comments on these threads people are going to be shaking their heads because they think nothing is going to be set until mid-season. But April 6th will set it. I did spend two weeks analyzing the enrollment numbers and the potential competitive balance adders and made predictions on the division splits, but got no responses.....which given some of what goes on here, I am grateful no one felt the need to call me names. So just nap away for two more weeks and then the pot will stir again.
If you spent two weeks analyzing enrollment numbers, you need to get out more!
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  #120  
Old 03-23-17, 08:06 AM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by hoser View Post
Uh we try harder
If you tried harder, maybe you would win more!
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