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  #1  
Old 03-01-17, 01:11 PM
Falcon11 Falcon11 is offline
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Vanguard vs. Attack

Admittedly, I have been a little out of the loop of the club scene for a little while, but it seems like Vanguard has had a lot more college recruits over the past several seasons compared to Attack.

However, it is interesting to me because it seems that when Attack and Vanguard's top teams play at the upper levels, it is usually a pretty even fight.

So, what gives? Is Vanguard's club management just that much better at selling their players as recruits?

Are Vanguard's players better athletes (whereas Attack has more players who are solid volleyballers because they have played since 4th grade) - thus better fit to play collegiately?

Or, has Vanguard had a couple studs (the college commits) each year that carry the team, whereas Attack has less studs, but more solid team play?

Just curious what the thoughts are out there - I hope to see more guys from the other areas of the state play in college.
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  #2  
Old 03-01-17, 02:43 PM
Crusaders1 Crusaders1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon11 View Post
Admittedly, I have been a little out of the loop of the club scene for a little while, but it seems like Vanguard has had a lot more college recruits over the past several seasons compared to Attack.

However, it is interesting to me because it seems that when Attack and Vanguard's top teams play at the upper levels, it is usually a pretty even fight.

So, what gives? Is Vanguard's club management just that much better at selling their players as recruits?

Are Vanguard's players better athletes (whereas Attack has more players who are solid volleyballers because they have played since 4th grade) - thus better fit to play collegiately?

Or, has Vanguard had a couple studs (the college commits) each year that carry the team, whereas Attack has less studs, but more solid team play?

Just curious what the thoughts are out there - I hope to see more guys from the other areas of the state play in college.



I think it's a combination of all of that. In regards to your questions:

Vanguard has at least 3 former D1 players, coaching on their staff + Coach Hanson's son. They would have knowledge from their playing days that Attack doesn't (to get them to the next level). Obviously by having former college players, Vanguard is going to have many contacts at a lot of different schools where they have "in's" whereas Attack may not have that. As they say - it's not what you know ... I understand that Attack has Coach McCormick, but he's just one guy and Vanguard has 4.

I would probably agree that Attack has more "volleyball players" - but watching the two clubs play against each other, it's clear that Vanguard is more athletic. Which brings me to your third question.

Vanguard's top players are definitely better than Attack's top players - which is why Vanguard's top players go on to play in college and not Attack's (usually). Everyone at Attack, across the board, is really solid but Vanguard has solid players too, you just don't notice them as much because of the standouts that Vanguard has.

I suppose the matches are always so close because of the rivalry between Vanguard & Attack. Of course the HS rivalry of (predominately Darby players) vs the big 3 affects the rivalry. The desire to be the best in the state and simply being a competitor are factors. It could almost be compared to OSU/Michigan where these 2 clubs flat out don't like each other - and the games are usually close because of the pressure, emotion, and pride that's on the line.

Last edited by Crusaders1; 03-01-17 at 03:38 PM..
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  #3  
Old 03-01-17, 02:54 PM
VbdadOH VbdadOH is offline
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Well said Crusaders1
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  #4  
Old 03-01-17, 03:58 PM
Outworker Outworker is offline
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I agree with everything said so far.

I would also like to add that it seems from the outside that Vanguard has much more structure. The way the kids are trained seems to set them up better after they graduate.

I think the kids at Attack play a "craftier" game, whereas the Vanguard kids are obviously trained to play a much more aggressive style. While this craftier game can work at the youth level, it's just not effective at the next level.

So why has Vanguard had better athletes over the last few years?
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  #5  
Old 03-01-17, 03:59 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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To this point, the big difference is that all Attack teams 1-9 (or however many are on the team) are more equal than the number on Vanguard. So while the absolute best athletes might play for Vanguard, they're likely not as strong 1-9 as Attack. I would also say Attack has better true volleyball players and Vanguard has superior athletes. The difference in philosophy and style of play, in addition to the actual rosters and talent all play into the rivalry.
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  #6  
Old 03-01-17, 04:01 PM
OH1 OH1 is offline
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I'm curious because I really don't know.

How many of Attack's coaches are involved with the grade school/high school teams? I know Vanguard has 13 coaches and 10 or 11 are involved in the grade school/high school programs.

Does this have any effect on the club teams?
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  #7  
Old 03-01-17, 04:47 PM
Brambleberry Brambleberry is offline
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I'm not sure where to start a lot of points brought up, so I'll cover a few. I'm from Cincinnati and mostly get to see Cincinnati players, mainly during the high school season, but here are my thoughts.

I do think Vanguard tends to get more athletes in their program. Just going off the top of my head, college coaches are looking for a combination of volleyball skill and more importantly potential. A lot of that is based off approach and block touch for front row players, which cannot be taught.

Vanguard for whatever reason has recently had players much taller than Attack. Last year, the top 3 recruits in Ohio were Dejon Clarke, Ian Cowen, and Jason Bruggeman. I don't think anyone would argue that Bruggeman was more important to Moeller last year than David Wernery, but David was a 5'10 OH. Great high school player, but his ceiling was near maxed out based on measurables. High level college programs wouldn't go for Wernery because of that. Just one example, but look at Attacks outsides at 18s this year too. One is maybe 5'9 and the other is just about 6'1 or 6'2.

As far as the Attack coaches being involved at the high school level, some are, but not to the level of Vanguard.

Maybe the answer is just that Vanguard is a better club, which seems like the answer some on here are fishing for. However, outside of the 18 age group this year I would say Attacks #1 would beat Vanguard's #1
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  #8  
Old 03-01-17, 06:15 PM
Outworker Outworker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brambleberry View Post
I'm not sure where to start a lot of points brought up, so I'll cover a few. I'm from Cincinnati and mostly get to see Cincinnati players, mainly during the high school season, but here are my thoughts.

I do think Vanguard tends to get more athletes in their program. Just going off the top of my head, college coaches are looking for a combination of volleyball skill and more importantly potential. A lot of that is based off approach and block touch for front row players, which cannot be taught.

Vanguard for whatever reason has recently had players much taller than Attack. Last year, the top 3 recruits in Ohio were Dejon Clarke, Ian Cowen, and Jason Bruggeman. I don't think anyone would argue that Bruggeman was more important to Moeller last year than David Wernery, but David was a 5'10 OH. Great high school player, but his ceiling was near maxed out based on measurables. High level college programs wouldn't go for Wernery because of that. Just one example, but look at Attacks outsides at 18s this year too. One is maybe 5'9 and the other is just about 6'1 or 6'2.

As far as the Attack coaches being involved at the high school level, some are, but not to the level of Vanguard.

Maybe the answer is just that Vanguard is a better club, which seems like the answer some on here are fishing for. However, outside of the 18 age group this year I would say Attacks #1 would beat Vanguard's #1
I agree with just about all of these statements. However, at the end of the day you are training for 18's. That's really all that matters. That's why the top teams in the country are moving everyone up. 16's and 18's are the prime groups with all of the best 15's and 17's moving up. I don't even think Sport Performance carries 15's or 17's anymore.
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Old 03-02-17, 09:03 AM
Brambleberry Brambleberry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outworker View Post
I agree with just about all of these statements. However, at the end of the day you are training for 18's. That's really all that matters. That's why the top teams in the country are moving everyone up. 16's and 18's are the prime groups with all of the best 15's and 17's moving up. I don't even think Sport Performance carries 15's or 17's anymore.
Is the bolded true? Last year Vanguard 17's were the talk of the site after showing what they could do at bid tournaments including winning St. Louis.

I will say it is nice to have a strong rivalry that has continued to grow between Attack and Vanguard, certainly makes the players better because of it
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Old 03-02-17, 09:33 AM
Outworker Outworker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brambleberry View Post
Is the bolded true? Last year Vanguard 17's were the talk of the site after showing what they could do at bid tournaments including winning St. Louis.

I will say it is nice to have a strong rivalry that has continued to grow between Attack and Vanguard, certainly makes the players better because of it
The 17's had a great winter, probably the best any team in Ohio has ever had.

Having said that, I'm hoping that the Vanguard directors didn't want that team peaking at 17's. They already had 4 or 5 underclassmen that year playing up to prepare for 18's.

I also think there is a difference between the talk on this site, and what the plans for each club are.
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  #11  
Old 03-02-17, 11:12 AM
Falcon11 Falcon11 is offline
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Thanks everyone for your thoughts and replies.

So, I guess from what everyone is agreeing to is that Vanguard is really the better club (at least by 18s) - which would lead me to think they're developing athletes/players better. Which would lead me to believe that the coaches and organization as a whole is better structured and organized.

I think looking at Attack's coaches is a mixed bag -some have great experience (like McCormick), are HS coaches (Morman, Doll), but others may not be to the level of Vanguard's coaching staff.

Hopefully Cincinnati can start producing some similar talent soon.
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Old 03-02-17, 12:48 PM
VbdadOH VbdadOH is offline
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I wouldn't agree completely. I do think Attack does a better job in some areas. They are developing the kids at a younger age, than Vanguard. I think attach starts in the third grade, and Vanguard starts at seventh grade. Attack is also pulling a larger pool of players and getting more player involved.
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Old 03-02-17, 01:51 PM
istillplay istillplay is offline
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Originally Posted by VbdadOH View Post
I wouldn't agree completely. I do think Attack does a better job in some areas. They are developing the kids at a younger age, than Vanguard. I think attach starts in the third grade, and Vanguard starts at seventh grade. Attack is also pulling a larger pool of players and getting more player involved.
I agree with this and the post from Crusaders1 above with one build. Vanguard through their contract system identifies the stronger players in each age group and allows them to play up to their ability versus their age as long as they can meaningfully contribute. For this year there are at least 5 U17s and 1 U16 contributing on the U18 teams. This helps gets them ready and showcases them for college. I talked to one college coach that values this in the club as it allows them to assess the player in a faster pace of play representative of college. The only player in recent memory at Attack that did the was the Pung kid.

If Vanguard played their kids in their age groups the head to head battles vs Attack would be different. Someone said it above - Are you trying to win for college prep or win the age group in the state?

Vanguard also practices more(3x/wk vs 2x/wk) and earlier. They had something like 30 hours of gym time between open gyms, tryouts, and practices before Attack had an 18s tryout. This allowed them to participate in the OVR preseason tourney at Twinsburg to help figure out where to focus.

Attack has great potential and an infrastructure advantage. Coach McCormick would seem to bring college knowledge if he is allowed to influence the structure. In addition, the Moeller coach took over the younger ages from Hoekstra. This should help build upon the early advantage Attack has with the CYO influence.
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Old 03-02-17, 01:57 PM
Brambleberry Brambleberry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon11 View Post
Thanks everyone for your thoughts and replies.

So, I guess from what everyone is agreeing to is that Vanguard is really the better club (at least by 18s) - which would lead me to think they're developing athletes/players better. Which would lead me to believe that the coaches and organization as a whole is better structured and organized.

I think looking at Attack's coaches is a mixed bag -some have great experience (like McCormick), are HS coaches (Morman, Doll), but others may not be to the level of Vanguard's coaching staff.

Hopefully Cincinnati can start producing some similar talent soon.
Let's look back the last few years at the 18s level, and compare who had the better teams

2016/17 - Vanguard
2015/16 - Attack
2014/15 - Vanguard
2013/14 - Vanguard
2012/13 - Attack

The only time the teams weren't very close in talent levels was this past year with 16/17 Vanguard. If you want to say that Vanguard is definitely the better club, because this year the 18s age group was way better than Attack, that is your opinion, but I'm not sure I agree with it

I can agree with the Attack coaches being just as solid at the higher lveles, there are also some great, well respected coaches at the lower levels (McLaughlin - Moeller Head Coach, Bianco - Elder JV Coach the last 10+ years) but there are others who are not yet involved in the high school scene or are just starting
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Old 03-08-17, 12:56 PM
Falcon11 Falcon11 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brambleberry View Post
Let's look back the last few years at the 18s level, and compare who had the better teams

2016/17 - Vanguard
2015/16 - Attack
2014/15 - Vanguard
2013/14 - Vanguard
2012/13 - Attack

The only time the teams weren't very close in talent levels was this past year with 16/17 Vanguard. If you want to say that Vanguard is definitely the better club, because this year the 18s age group was way better than Attack, that is your opinion, but I'm not sure I agree with it

I can agree with the Attack coaches being just as solid at the higher lveles, there are also some great, well respected coaches at the lower levels (McLaughlin - Moeller Head Coach, Bianco - Elder JV Coach the last 10+ years) but there are others who are not yet involved in the high school scene or are just starting
When I said lower levels, I meant 2nd, 3rd, and 4th teams at each level. Some of the coaching "talent" there was suspect for attack in years past.

Also, Bianco just started there this year as his son is playing, but obviously a good coach.
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