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  #31  
Old 02-24-17, 12:40 PM
madman madman is online now
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Since precedent has been established in prior years I think you're fighting a losing battle, but go for it.
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  #32  
Old 02-24-17, 12:50 PM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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Since the OATCCC's own rules COULDN'T BE MORE CLEAR, I know I'm fighting a winning battle. In fact, it's dumb to even refer to this situation as a "battle" or an "argument." It's totally cut-and-dry.

As I see it, the OATCCC has only two options:

1) Remove unattached and club-affiliated marks from the indoor state performance list.

2) Offer full refunds to all paid members for 2017.

Like I said, no one from my school attended the clinic. The only reason we purchased OATCCC memberships was so that we'd be in compliance with the indoor state meet's eligibility standards. If we knew that unattached performances could be used to gain entry into the meet, we wouldn't have purchased any OATCCC memberships.

The guidelines have been known since before the indoor season began. What's more, the Milesplit rankings even include a link to the guidelines at the top of the post, instructing coaches and athletes to "Please review the link below which outlines the criteria to be eligible to participate in the OATCCC Indoor State Championship on March 4th in Akron."

http://oh.milesplit.com/articles/203...mance-rankings
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  #33  
Old 02-24-17, 12:54 PM
WarriorCC WarriorCC is offline
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When you register online I believe you have to provide a membership number when you enter your athletes to the State meet. Without that, you are unable to compete in the meet.
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  #34  
Old 02-24-17, 02:18 PM
madman madman is online now
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I feel like I'm trolling you but that's not my intent.

How a rule has been enforced in the past limits how it can be enforced in the future unless clarifications have been made. Precedent is a part of every legal argument. Seeing the world in black and white is the result of wishful thinking. Gray is the color of real life.

This isn't the first year of the meet. Registration procedures have been used for years that have resulted in "unattached" next to athletes' names but have still resulted in performances that have been allowed. You may feel that is a crime against humanity, but that's your burden to bear.

If the OATCCC wants to change their procedures, they will need to clarify them before a season begins. There's a rat's nest out there right now. If they tried to enforce the rule as you want it enforced they would anger a large portion of their membership that have followed past practice. I would argue that denying athletes entry who have followed past practice would be a greater crime than what you are fighting.
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  #35  
Old 02-24-17, 05:33 PM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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The OATCCC are aware that sometimes kids/relays will be on the lists who are not eligible. Whether it be due to being "unattached", or academics, or because their coach is not a member. I was on the District Board until a couple years ago. That's one reason why they went to #35 to declare for the State Meet. They may not know how often these things happen, but those problems have been discussed...(at least in the past).
I believe they are optimistic in thinking that those who made the list who are not qualified will, A) either contact them (or milesplit) and either attach an affiliation to the kid or B) take them off the list or at least C) not declare them to compete at the State Meet.

Unfortunately, not all coaches/kids will do this. That is obvious due to how bogus marks are sent in to meets, kids at certain schools are listed in events at two meets on the same day and how some will fill up a meet quickly and shut others schools/ kids out.... only to have half of their kids not show up (or pay the entry fee).

Also noted on the OATCCC website (or meet websites) are "rules" that address being charged for kids that don't show up/pay, entering more that one meet on a day and only competing in so many events. These rules are not being enforced either.... not sure if precedent has anything to do with it.
I still think it is just proper track courtesy... or integrity that is being violated.

Contact mile split with any and all violators.... some may have taken care of it (like I did with a graduate who competed under an athletes name). But you will have to "mention Names"

Last edited by ENA2; 02-24-17 at 11:09 PM..
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  #36  
Old 02-24-17, 09:24 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjp82 View Post
Since the OATCCC's own rules COULDN'T BE MORE CLEAR, I know I'm fighting a winning battle. In fact, it's dumb to even refer to this situation as a "battle" or an "argument." It's totally cut-and-dry.

As I see it, the OATCCC has only two options:

1) Remove unattached and club-affiliated marks from the indoor state performance list.

2) Offer full refunds to all paid members for 2017.

Like I said, no one from my school attended the clinic. The only reason we purchased OATCCC memberships was so that we'd be in compliance with the indoor state meet's eligibility standards. If we knew that unattached performances could be used to gain entry into the meet, we wouldn't have purchased any OATCCC memberships.

The guidelines have been known since before the indoor season began. What's more, the Milesplit rankings even include a link to the guidelines at the top of the post, instructing coaches and athletes to "Please review the link below which outlines the criteria to be eligible to participate in the OATCCC Indoor State Championship on March 4th in Akron."

http://oh.milesplit.com/articles/203...mance-rankings
Well, it seems like you are in it for all the right reasons. My only question is, I did not see a single Unattached athlete in any of the top 35 lists. Can someone show me those?
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  #37  
Old 02-25-17, 04:17 PM
PCTigerTrackCoach PCTigerTrackCoach is offline
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I know my group on Direct Athletics is listed as PC Tiger TC only because the site only allows 1 coach to be a member of the site and the coach who has the membership doesn't take part in the indoor season so I don't think it be fair to my kids not to be able to register them for meets under Direct Athletics because of this.... If the kid ran the mark, it is what it is.... It be different if they weren't repping their school at the State meet and were let in but simple technicalities need to be reworded so things aren't so technical I guess
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  #38  
Old 02-25-17, 07:22 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Before the Supreme Court gets involved, I believe the list is unofficial until it is finalized and listed as official. Maybe refreshing the browser once in awhile might help too.
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  #39  
Old 02-26-17, 10:37 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjp82 View Post
Since the OATCCC's own rules COULDN'T BE MORE CLEAR, I know I'm fighting a winning battle. In fact, it's dumb to even refer to this situation as a "battle" or an "argument." It's totally cut-and-dry.

As I see it, the OATCCC has only two options:

1) Remove unattached and club-affiliated marks from the indoor state performance list.

2) Offer full refunds to all paid members for 2017.

Like I said, no one from my school attended the clinic. The only reason we purchased OATCCC memberships was so that we'd be in compliance with the indoor state meet's eligibility standards. If we knew that unattached performances could be used to gain entry into the meet, we wouldn't have purchased any OATCCC memberships.

The guidelines have been known since before the indoor season began. What's more, the Milesplit rankings even include a link to the guidelines at the top of the post, instructing coaches and athletes to "Please review the link below which outlines the criteria to be eligible to participate in the OATCCC Indoor State Championship on March 4th in Akron."

http://oh.milesplit.com/articles/203...mance-rankings
What's your big gripe?
1. The system?
Or
2. Kids beating your kids?

I feel that you are complaining because your kids aren't good enough.
Forgive me if I'm wrong. But I'm all for fairness
But if other kids are better than my kids im not going
To $itch and whine on yappi about it. I'm not going to $itch to people about it. I'm going to get my kids in the weight room and on the track the next 4 weeks and get the ready for outdoor.

I have 19 kids going to the state meet but I also have two kids missing the top lists by.01
It's a learning lesson. We worked as hard as we could indoors.
Now it's time to work for outdoors.

I've also had state champions indoors not make it to state outside because they grew complacent.

Use it as educational not a $itching session man!

Last edited by EuclidandViren; 02-27-17 at 09:49 AM..
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  #40  
Old 02-27-17, 09:04 AM
PCTigerTrackCoach PCTigerTrackCoach is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
What's your big gripe?
1. The system?
Or
2. Kids beating your kids?

I feel that you are complaining because your kids aren't good enough.
Forgive me if I'm wrong. But I'm all for fairness
But if other kids are better than my kids im not going
To $itch and whine on yappi about it. I'm not going to $itch
To people about it. I'm going to get my kids in the weight room and on the track the next 4 weeks and get the ready for outdoor.

I have 19 kids going but I also have two kids missing the top lists by.01
It's a learning lesson. We worked as hard as we could indoors. N
Now it's time to work for outdoors.

I've also had state champions indoors not make it to state outside because they grew complacent.

Use it as educational not a $itching session man!
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  #41  
Old 02-27-17, 11:29 AM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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My big gripe is coaches and teams that are too lazy to comply with OATCCC rules.

My big gripe is the feckless OATCCC arbitrarily deciding which of its rules to enforce.

My big gripe is with COMPLIANT athletes being unjustly cheated out of a spot in the indoor state championship meet.

I have been in contact with President Sheets and am hoping to soon receive some clarity regarding this situation. In the meantime, I continue to urge everyone to voice their concerns to their OATCCC district representative. Contact info is listed on the OATCCC's website.
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  #42  
Old 02-27-17, 12:01 PM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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Here is this year's indoor state meet verification form: http://oatccc.com/docs/track/verification-form.html

In it, the OATCCC threatens sanctions against "[c]oaches and schools who permit ineligible teams or athletes to complete and thereby take the entry space of an eligible team or athlete."

That's good news. Hopefully, this will keep ineligible athletes out of the meet.
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  #43  
Old 02-27-17, 01:01 PM
Eye89 Eye89 is offline
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Only 2 things matter:
1) Did the Board of Education approve students to participate in indoor track as representatives of the school?
2) Is the coach a member of OATCCC?
Other than that, let the kids race and allow the fastest ones to compete at the OATCCC state meet.

God bless you OATCCC for creating this opportunity for kids. Indoor track continues to gain popularity, which is good for our sport.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  #44  
Old 02-27-17, 04:50 PM
Run4Life Run4Life is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eye89 View Post
Only 2 things matter:
1) Did the Board of Education approve students to participate in indoor track as representatives of the school?
2) Is the coach a member of OATCCC?
Other than that, let the kids race and allow the fastest ones to compete at the OATCCC state meet.

God bless you OATCCC for creating this opportunity for kids. Indoor track continues to gain popularity, which is good for our sport.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And the coach can join the OATCCC when they pick up their entries.
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  #45  
Old 02-27-17, 10:22 PM
Eye89 Eye89 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run4Life View Post
And the coach can join the OATCCC when they pick up their entries.


Right on, can't make it much easier than that!
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  #46  
Old 02-28-17, 06:12 PM
TheRealOHRunners TheRealOHRunners is offline
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Things that make the lists hard to keep it 100% accurate:

1. When a team doesn't join until day of the state meet - you have to keep them on the list or put them on the list if they ask, if not they wouldn't be able to register for the meet at all. Once a team is on the list one year they will stay on it until a representative of that coaching staff asks to be removed (which rarely happens).

2a. Unnatached athletes - the MileSplit system tries to attach athletes to a team even if they run unattached - the system will try to put them on their team with approval of whoever processes the results. If the performance isn't tied to the athlete and the school a whole new profile is created and then there are two profiles for the same athlete.

2b. Unattached Athletes - athletes that run attached due to their school not going through the formalities of approving indoor yet are at a disadvantage. If a school agrees to approve indoor track in January after the school board meeting, then they can't approve it until the February meeting. Should all marks prior to the approval not count (even though all but the school board saying it's approved has been done). Also once a school board approves it an alert is not sent to the MileSplit webmaster or to the OATCCC to let them know to add the school into the rankings - so the webmaster has to go off of what he is told by parents and coaches.

3. Are the MileSplit rankings for the OATCCC or for the athletes and for Milesplit? - Holding out unattached athletes from the rankings only serves the OATCCC lists for indoor state and not the athlete that made the mark or Milesplit that is going for accurate rankings and a large database. I always felt that a mark earned by an athlete deserved to be on Their MileSplit profile. The OATCCC would need to create their lists which are either time consuming or costly in creating the software to automate the lists

After running the lists for about 6-7 years these were the major challenges to keeping the lists 100% accurate. There were a few other challenges to them, but those are the 4 primary issues.
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  #47  
Old 03-03-17, 06:35 PM
Rundad Rundad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjp82 View Post
Unattached performances are not eligible for the meet. The OATCCC's own rules couldn't be more clear about this. Another example is the leader in the boys 1600 in D1. He competed unattached and this is ineligible for the meet.

Read the OATCCC's site, there's no gray area here.
Who are you referring to as the leader in the boys D1 1600? Everyone I see on the list competed for their schools.
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  #48  
Old 03-03-17, 07:18 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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There are always those people that are new and don't understand how the world works. Just like those parents that have one kid in the program that need to try and change everything that's been done for 20 years and then you never hear from them again after the 4 years they made things unbearable. kjp82 seems to have fallen off the face of the earth.
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  #49  
Old 03-03-17, 07:59 PM
kjp82 kjp82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rundad View Post
Who are you referring to as the leader in the boys D1 1600? Everyone I see on the list competed for their schools.
Andre Bollam-Godbott, Nick Chaplik & Christopher Cannon competed unattached in their "qualifying" performances. This is not being taken lightly and I am continuing to discuss the situation with President SHeets

Based on the verification form the OATCCC will end up sanctioning their schools if they do indeed compete with their ineligible performances.
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  #50  
Old 03-04-17, 12:49 PM
madman madman is online now
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I will sleep better knowing that you are obsessing over this.
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  #51  
Old 03-04-17, 12:55 PM
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Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
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Originally Posted by madman View Post
I will sleep better knowing that you are obsessing over this.
Justice will prevail.
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