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  #421  
Old 09-14-16, 12:02 PM
SuperD1 SuperD1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Flood View Post
Exactly


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Originally Posted by Flood View Post
Obviously a highly biased assessment. Why do you even concern yourself with what public schools do, even for a minute?

Maybe I should post a copy of my property tax bill for an upper middle class suburb with what most people consider an excellent school system. And I still sent / am sending all my of kids through private schools.
So as long as they're collecting my tax dollars and affect my property value I'll concern myself as I see fit.


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Originally Posted by Flood View Post
Fear-mongering. Why do you care? Is it much different now?
The top of the food chain doesn't fear monger. One state champion through St. Edward and a future state champion at Saint Ignatius.

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Originally Posted by Flood View Post
Highly, highly doubtful. Again, why would it matter to you if public schools can't compete? They barely can now.
You and your buddies are the only ones whining about publics not being able to compete. At least when Davidson, Colerain, etc. won they actually won. Those kids are rock stars.


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Originally Posted by Flood View Post
Well, according to you the system is already a mess, so why all the extra fear-mongering?
The system is not a mess. It's called sarcasm. It's fine the way it is. Seperation would only hurt the public programs. The private programs would only get better. I'd still like to be able to watch a meaningful Mentor / Solon game in the future.
Spring football would be nice but good luck getting the OHSAA to buy that.

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Originally Posted by Flood View Post
The truth is, if they separated private and public schools tomorrow, 1% of the publics would care for a month, then nobody would ever look back, regardless of the outcome. There have been a lot of changes with the Ohio playoff system over the years. None of them has RUINED HS football. This wouldn't either. It's all fear-mongering.
You're delusional. Making small changes and removing the private teams from the thumb of the OHSAA are two completely different things. Like I said. Go watch a public league baseball game. That didn't happen because one day kids forgot how to play baseball. They all went private where the competition is. Right now they don't have to make that decision in high school. Separate and give the kids that choice and watch what happens.

Not sure what your real problem is with the private school teams. You must not like winners. No sprinkles for you.

Hopefully my HTML skills are on point and this doesn't post as one big mess.

Last edited by SuperD1; 09-14-16 at 12:32 PM.
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  #422  
Old 09-14-16, 12:05 PM
SuperD1 SuperD1 is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
Damn straight.

Dopes like him don't realize that the OHSAA, without the private boosters on the inside pulling strings behind the scenes, would have the wisdom to structure regulations in such a way that no public would play them, and they would be out of town every week. If they tried to make a league of mega-schools in state, they would destroy each other.

Get on your bus and ride!

Cabezdewhatever thinks a government operation is going to "regulate" something that makes sense and works! Man, that's awesome!
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  #423  
Old 09-14-16, 12:11 PM
SuperD1 SuperD1 is offline
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Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Your alma mater, my alma mater, are not interested in separation. They don't want separation. They don't want to spend money on a national schedule. They would prefer to play a more local schedule. They would prefer to use their precious resources on things like financial aid, replacing windows from the 1950's, raising teacher salaries, buying apartment buildings/houses, and expanding the footprint of the campus. They don't want to spend their money on flying 70 football players and 25 staff members to football games in Florida.

Big time football schedule...TO WHAT END?????


I'm being sarcastic with the Seperation agenda. I know they don't want it.I don't either. But the damage would be done on the public side, not the private.
Which is life. Has a public operation ever been able to compete with a private organization?
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  #424  
Old 09-14-16, 12:20 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperD1 View Post
Has a public operation ever been able to compete with a private organization?
I'd go with the public army almost every time.
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  #425  
Old 09-14-16, 12:36 PM
SuperD1 SuperD1 is offline
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Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
I'd go with the public army almost every time.
LOL, touché. But let's scale it down. Would you take ten soldiers picked at random from the US military or ten selected, privately trained and funded soldiers? And that isn't meant as an insult to our boys and girls in uniform.
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  #426  
Old 09-14-16, 12:41 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperD1 View Post
LOL, touché. But let's scale it down. Would you take ten soldiers picked at random from the US military or ten selected, privately trained and funded soldiers? And that isn't meant as an insult to our boys and girls in uniform.
As Ms. Vito said in "My Cousin Vinny"..."that's a bull-$ hi t question". The OHSAA with all it's government, public school-based financial resources...the OHSAA would keep that. The privates go out on their own.

It's a bad outcome for both. I don't know where you think this private "pot o' gold" is coming from.
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  #427  
Old 09-14-16, 12:49 PM
Bo Kimble Bo Kimble is offline
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The fact is both sides need each other BADLY, I don't know why this seems to aid the problem at the 4 or 5 through 7 (divisions) level. The MAC has a STRANGLEHOLD on 5, 6, and 7, but to turn and punish teams for success goes against the fundamental idea of any sport, period. Additionally, you can't punish the Division I schools and make them play up, but I promise the world will be much safer once Fostoria St. Wendelin and Ashtabula Sts John & Paul or whatever they are are in division 5, that's what we need to legislate. That is really sarcastic, for the 5 millionth time non-publics to account for the students that require special education services in public schools could use a uniform 1.5 to 1.75 multiplier and that's really it, I think Missouri is the other state that does this.
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  #428  
Old 09-14-16, 01:15 PM
Flood Flood is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperD1 View Post
Maybe I should post a copy of my property tax bill for an upper middle class suburb with what most people consider an excellent school system. And I still sent / am sending all my of kids through private schools.
So as long as they're collecting my tax dollars and affect my property value I'll concern myself as I see fit.
We're talking sports! Not about a bond or school levy. Sports! Why do you care what teams the sports teams of your public school of residence plays when your kids don't even go there? You're nuts! What enjoyment do you really get from St. Eds pummeling 99% of public schools? You're sick, man.

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At least when Davidson, Colerain, etc. won they actually won. Those kids are rock stars.
You said it. Especially, Davidson. You better believe it. 100 times the accomplishment of a 10 county all-start team. You nailed it.

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Originally Posted by SuperD1 View Post
The system is not a mess. It's called sarcasm. It's fine the way it is.
That's what they said after they went to 5 divisions, then after 6, then after 7. And it would be "fine" after a separation too. You seem to be the only one worried about it.
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Originally Posted by SuperD1 View Post
Seperation would only hurt the public programs. The private programs would only get better.
Gross generalization. So let's find out. It really wouldn't matter because they'd be playing their own kind, right? Again, why do you care if publics get worse?

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Originally Posted by SuperD1 View Post
Go watch a public league baseball game
I see many. I saw Jackson win the D1 title in 2014. They looked pretty darn good to me.
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Originally Posted by SuperD1 View Post
Separate and give the kids that choice and watch what happens.
I'd love to...where do I sign?

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Originally Posted by SuperD1 View Post
Not sure what your real problem is with the private school teams.
I'm sure...gee...what could it be????????????
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  #429  
Old 09-14-16, 02:26 PM
SuperD1 SuperD1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Flood View Post
We're talking sports! Not about a bond or school levy. Sports! Why do you care what teams the sports teams of your public school of residence plays when your kids don't even go there? You're nuts! What enjoyment do you really get from St. Eds pummeling 99% of public schools? You're sick, man.


You said it. Especially, Davidson. You better believe it. 100 times the accomplishment of a 10 county all-start team. You nailed it.


That's what they said after they went to 5 divisions, then after 6, then after 7. And it would be "fine" after a separation too. You seem to be the only one worried about it.

Gross generalization. So let's find out. It really wouldn't matter because they'd be playing their own kind, right? Again, why do you care if publics get worse?


I see many. I saw Jackson win the D1 title in 2014. They looked pretty darn good to me.
I'd love to...where do I sign?


I'm sure...gee...what could it be????????????


Great, we disagree. Whopteefreakingdo.

Have fun not winning a state football title.
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  #430  
Old 09-14-16, 03:45 PM
fireflyer fireflyer is offline
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Originally Posted by Bo Kimble View Post
The fact is both sides need each other BADLY, I don't know why this seems to aid the problem at the 4 or 5 through 7 (divisions) level. The MAC has a STRANGLEHOLD on 5, 6, and 7, but to turn and punish teams for success goes against the fundamental idea of any sport, period. Additionally, you can't punish the Division I schools and make them play up, but I promise the world will be much safer once Fostoria St. Wendelin and Ashtabula Sts John & Paul or whatever they are are in division 5, that's what we need to legislate. That is really sarcastic, for the 5 millionth time non-publics to account for the students that require special education services in public schools could use a uniform 1.5 to 1.75 multiplier and that's really it, I think Missouri is the other state that does this.
But this is what puts the lie to the "private schools should be separate because they have elite systems that results in them being consistently superior". The MAC, except for one school, is all PUBLIC. And they regularly give privates a beat-down. I cannot remember the last time a private school beat ML. So where does that leave us, in the grand scheme of things?? You absolutely MUST NOT punish excellence!
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  #431  
Old 09-14-16, 03:51 PM
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I cannot remember the last time a private school beat ML.
DSJ in 2011. Other than DSJ? Troy Christian 2004.
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  #432  
Old 09-14-16, 06:26 PM
fireflyer fireflyer is offline
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But that's twice in 12 years...and I didn't count DSJ because they're MAC, lol!! Still think I have a good point, here...surely, surely we will not be punished simply because we are dominant. Every school the same size has the same chance...and the MAC has earned their "stranglehold" on DV, VI, and VII ON THE FIELD. By the way, they are all beatable. Ask Kirtland -- another public school.
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  #433  
Old 09-14-16, 11:01 PM
Basement Bias Basement Bias is offline
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Why not institute Indiana ' s playoff success factor and see what happens? Not much you can do about D1 dominant schools, but others could change by moving up a class after so many playoff victory points. It would give MAC schools more of a challenge.
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  #434  
Old 09-15-16, 08:02 AM
Summa Summa is offline
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Has anyone noticed the nationally televised high school games on ESPN this year. The large majority are Catholic or other private schools. I am very confident separation will only make privates stronger and top athletes and their parents will flock to them. The big privates especially, St. Ed, Ignatius, Moeller, St. X, Elder, will become national football programs, playing elite competition from all over the country. It will certainly make recruiting much easier for college coaches, going to high school games between teams with combined 30-40 D1 college prospects on their teams.
By the way just for verification here are the ESPN High School games played or scheduled so far this year.

Kick-Off Weekend

8/26/16:

Hillsboro (Tn) v. Oakland (Tn)
Basha (Az) v. Pinnacle (Az)

8/27/16:

Pine-Richland (Pa) v. St Edward (Oh)
Saguaro (Az) v. Valor Christian (Co)
Heritage (Tx) v. Lone Star (Tx)
IMG Academy (Fl) v. Grayson (Ga)
St. John Bosco (Ca) v. St. Xavier (Oh)
American Heritage (Fl) v. Colquitt County (Ga)
Bishop Gorman (Nv) v. Cedar Hill (Tx)

8/28/16:

Trinity Christian (Fl) v. Cocoa (Fl)

9/2/16:

St. Francis Academy (Md) v. Paramus Catholic (NJ)

9/9/16:

Atlanta Christian (Ga) v. Valor Christian (Co)

9/16/16:

St. Joseph Prep (Pa) v. Archbishop Wood (Pa)

9/23/16:

Brother Martin (La) v. John Curtis (La)

9/30/16:

St. Thomas Aquinas (Fl) v. Bishop Gorman (Nv)

Private Schools bolded. Haven't seen a public school featured since opening weekend and most of those were featured because they were playing private schools.

Last edited by Summa; 09-15-16 at 08:21 AM.
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  #435  
Old 09-15-16, 08:21 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is online now
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
2 private playoff divisions and 5 public in Ohio, or we THROW you out!

btw, pretty amusing that a "smarter than SuperD" private guy showed up right on cue. Just get back to your desk from the microwave ?
Cabe's been begging for this for years. It would be awful for HS football fans in Ohio.
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  #436  
Old 09-15-16, 11:29 PM
Sykotyk Sykotyk is offline
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There's a few things that should be hashed out here.

Separating privates and publics will not 'end public school football'. The vast majority that attend a high school game are attending regardless of who their opponent is, what their record is, and whether they have a shot for a state championship or not.

There's only a few small percentage, mostly those that would be on a site such as Yappi, who would choose to attend a particular game on a Friday night because "some D1 recruit is playing and I really want to see how good he is".

For those pointing out ESPN's HS football schedule need to realize something. ESPN does not promote high school football. They do not cater to HS football. They promote college football. They air HS games for the college fans. No different than NFL fans who will watch a college game just to see who should be drafted.

The people watching Valor Christian and Atlanta Christian play have zero interest in high school football. There isn't a HS football fan out there that is watching the 3-hour recruiting show ESPN airs because it's better than what they could be watching locally.

Ever attend a game shown on ESPN? I have numerous times. Go back and watch the telecast after the game and it's like they're broadcasting an entirely different game. It's constantly geared toward talking about the D1 recruits they've highlighted, and how they affect the game. Sometimes not even caring when someone else on the team does anything beneficial to their team.

90% of all HS teams in Ohio have no shot at a state championship in any given season. None. They even know it going in. Sure, they'd love to dream that it will happen. But, realistically, it's not in the cards. And yet their fans show up every game. Even when they're 1-7 or 0-9. Or 8-0. Doesn't matter.

They're not going to turn away because "Johnny down the street decided to play for St. Bishop Catholic instead of Podunk Public School." That's incredibly egotistical of private school fans to think that fans allegiance is tied only to winning or 'competing for championships'.

That people will stop caring because a certain player chose not to play for your school is ridiculous. Every few years you're cheering for an entirely new group of kids. The kid who never was matters little. The fans will cheer their team because it's their team.

Public. Private. Separated. Or together.
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  #437  
Old 09-16-16, 11:01 AM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Originally Posted by Sykotyk View Post
There's a few things that should be hashed out here.

Separating privates and publics will not 'end public school football'. The vast majority that attend a high school game are attending regardless of who their opponent is, what their record is, and whether they have a shot for a state championship or not.

There's only a few small percentage, mostly those that would be on a site such as Yappi, who would choose to attend a particular game on a Friday night because "some D1 recruit is playing and I really want to see how good he is".

For those pointing out ESPN's HS football schedule need to realize something. ESPN does not promote high school football. They do not cater to HS football. They promote college football. They air HS games for the college fans. No different than NFL fans who will watch a college game just to see who should be drafted.

The people watching Valor Christian and Atlanta Christian play have zero interest in high school football. There isn't a HS football fan out there that is watching the 3-hour recruiting show ESPN airs because it's better than what they could be watching locally.

Ever attend a game shown on ESPN? I have numerous times. Go back and watch the telecast after the game and it's like they're broadcasting an entirely different game. It's constantly geared toward talking about the D1 recruits they've highlighted, and how they affect the game. Sometimes not even caring when someone else on the team does anything beneficial to their team.

90% of all HS teams in Ohio have no shot at a state championship in any given season. None. They even know it going in. Sure, they'd love to dream that it will happen. But, realistically, it's not in the cards. And yet their fans show up every game. Even when they're 1-7 or 0-9. Or 8-0. Doesn't matter.

They're not going to turn away because "Johnny down the street decided to play for St. Bishop Catholic instead of Podunk Public School." That's incredibly egotistical of private school fans to think that fans allegiance is tied only to winning or 'competing for championships'.

That people will stop caring because a certain player chose not to play for your school is ridiculous. Every few years you're cheering for an entirely new group of kids. The kid who never was matters little. The fans will cheer their team because it's their team.

Public. Private. Separated. Or together.
Well said.
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  #438  
Old 09-16-16, 11:08 AM
Flood Flood is offline
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Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
Well said.
You're preaching to the choir.
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  #439  
Old 09-16-16, 11:23 AM
Summa Summa is offline
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Originally Posted by Sykotyk View Post
There's a few things that should be hashed out here.

Separating privates and publics will not 'end public school football'. The vast majority that attend a high school game are attending regardless of who their opponent is, what their record is, and whether they have a shot for a state championship or not.

There's only a few small percentage, mostly those that would be on a site such as Yappi, who would choose to attend a particular game on a Friday night because "some D1 recruit is playing and I really want to see how good he is".

For those pointing out ESPN's HS football schedule need to realize something. ESPN does not promote high school football. They do not cater to HS football. They promote college football. They air HS games for the college fans. No different than NFL fans who will watch a college game just to see who should be drafted.

The people watching Valor Christian and Atlanta Christian play have zero interest in high school football. There isn't a HS football fan out there that is watching the 3-hour recruiting show ESPN airs because it's better than what they could be watching locally.

Ever attend a game shown on ESPN? I have numerous times. Go back and watch the telecast after the game and it's like they're broadcasting an entirely different game. It's constantly geared toward talking about the D1 recruits they've highlighted, and how they affect the game. Sometimes not even caring when someone else on the team does anything beneficial to their team.

90% of all HS teams in Ohio have no shot at a state championship in any given season. None. They even know it going in. Sure, they'd love to dream that it will happen. But, realistically, it's not in the cards. And yet their fans show up every game. Even when they're 1-7 or 0-9. Or 8-0. Doesn't matter.

They're not going to turn away because "Johnny down the street decided to play for St. Bishop Catholic instead of Podunk Public School." That's incredibly egotistical of private school fans to think that fans allegiance is tied only to winning or 'competing for championships'.

That people will stop caring because a certain player chose not to play for your school is ridiculous. Every few years you're cheering for an entirely new group of kids. The kid who never was matters little. The fans will cheer their team because it's their team.

Public. Private. Separated. Or together.
Man did you miss the point. No one said separation would end public high school football.
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  #440  
Old 09-16-16, 12:38 PM
Sykotyk Sykotyk is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperD1 View Post
Separation is the best thing that could happen to private schools.

No more OHSAA BS.

Open recruiting, scholarships, spring football. It wouldn't take three years to destroy public school football programs.
Summa, you were saying?
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  #441  
Old 09-16-16, 12:50 PM
Summa Summa is offline
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Summa, you were saying?
You got me. I should have said that is not what I was saying, since I have not read this entire thread. But nonetheless, you still clearly missed the theme of my post and went into things that are completely irrelevant to the point I was making.
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  #442  
Old 09-16-16, 02:16 PM
Sykotyk Sykotyk is offline
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Originally Posted by Summa View Post
You got me. I should have said that is not what I was saying, since I have not read this entire thread. But nonetheless, you still clearly missed the theme of my post and went into things that are completely irrelevant to the point I was making.
Point taken.

Even though I pointed out the ESPN games you listed AND made comments about viewership of ESPN HS games... the entirety of the the message wasn't aimed at you. Honestly, I was using your post as a rebuttal to SuperD1 who seems insistent that fandom and support solely hinge on whether a team is 'successful' or not. If that were the case, Massillon would have zero fans (that's a joke, for those inclined to get upset).

Seriously, though, I've seen games in states WITH separation and states without. And, honestly, you can't really tell the difference. Be it a regular season game, playoff, or state championship (or, NJ's case, regional championships).

I attended the state titles in Louisiana last year. For the past few seasons, LHSAA has been split between Select and Non-Select championships (essentially, private and public). And only got to see the public school titles (the privates were held the week prior). And the only discussion of ANY fan there that I heard talk about the fact there is still a split (despite the association, and even politicans clamoring to recombine the two) was the fact the public fans were happy for the split.

And reading up on it, another unintended consequence was that the very small privates were happy. The ones who in OH would be like Open Door, Bellaire St. John Central, Youngstown Christian, etc, who generally pose no chance of making playoffs or state championships. So, that's why three years later they still haven't gotten enough votes to recombine. The publics are happy. The small private schools are happy. The only ones who aren't are the really big/powerful private schools who only get to beat up on eachother instead of beating up on publics. And like a lot of southern states, there's a big tilt toward private schooling since desegregation (draw your own conclusions as you may) and a huge drawing power for a state such as Louisiana that is highly Catholic.


But, going back to another point I had with SuperD1's assertion is this:

This idea that if all the shackles are taken away from private schools that ALL private schools will benefit athletically.

This is faulty for two reason. First, there are some schools who will not put the cart before the horse. In the instance of recruiting run amok, not all schools will dive in willingly. Either honestly, or aesthetically, not wanting to put athletics ahead of academics. The polarization between, say, Purcell Marian and Archbishop Moeller would just grow that much more vast.

Secondly, the same thing that SuperD1 asserts will cause publics to fail and privates to succeed in such an environment is the same thing that will cause privates to fail. If you can believe the notion that kids are only going to go to 'winners' (i.e., the free wheeling privates recruiting to their hearts' content), then it's safe to assume when those schools are shoehorned into a small 60+ private association competing for state titles only a few would 'succeed' while the disinterest in playing for a 'loser' would prevent many glory-seeking teenagers from transferring to anyone but the 'best of the best'.

If you want an example, check out the Baltimore/Washington area and see how that works. Sure, you can name teams such as DeMatha or Good Counsel of the WCAC (DC area) or Mt. St. Joseph, Gilman, or Calvert Hall of the MIAA (Baltimore area predominantly). But, there's 5 other WCAC teams that never get any real recognition. Or the 15 other MIAA football schools not already mentioned.

Want to guess why?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...425_story.html

Imagine if Ohio State played in a league with just Ohio teams without any scholarship limits. How many years of absolute behind the woodshed beatings would it take for MAC schools or Cincinnati to just lose all hope of recruiting anyone to their schools? Anybody good would go to Ohio State. "The winning team" and only favor somewhere else out of family loyalty or local pride to a particular school.

If privates split, it'd be St. X, Moeller, Elder, St. Ed, Iggy wiping the floor with their competition. And even then, it'd only take a few years, maybe a decade at tops, for each city to trim down to 'one school' being the torchbearer, while the rest will soon fall to also-ran status. Without any restrictions, there is nothing to stop it.
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