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  #121  
Old 12-15-17, 11:08 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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What other conclusions should we draw? If you were the coach, would you keep running out kids that can't score if your team has an obvious problem with scoring?

Or would you insert some younger kids that can create and see if it might spark something on offense?

So they just keep doing the same thing? That's delusional.

If they change it up, then ok, at least they try something. If they stay the same, and continue to have no success, what other conclusion is there?

Last edited by trey2k; 12-15-17 at 11:19 PM.
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  #122  
Old 12-15-17, 11:15 PM
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The Royer kid is pretty athletic...that's exactly what they're missing. They have no athleticism.

The Cluxton kid can break down defenders...they don't have any of that. He could make shots easier for everyone with his ability to penetrate and pass.

Both could probably provide a spark on offense. They're not going to win them games all of a sudden, but it's something that should be considered.

If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But they can't continue to do what they're doing.
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  #123  
Old 12-15-17, 11:23 PM
Elder Fan 67 Elder Fan 67 is offline
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Why the hell won’t someone from Elder update/post the game stats on the GCL website. I just want to see who’s doing what other than Harp. I feel really bad for that kid. We have to do something to get him some help, this sucks.

Every other team has all there games posted that day or the next morning. Not Elder, we’re special.
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  #124  
Old 12-15-17, 11:25 PM
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Would you want to post box scores for these games?
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  #125  
Old 12-15-17, 11:35 PM
Elder Fan 67 Elder Fan 67 is offline
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Not the box score, actual stats. They don’t lie, instead of complaining about the younger kids playing, find out which players are doing nothing and replace them.
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  #126  
Old 12-15-17, 11:37 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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I agree...post the stats.

If I had control over the roster, I would make changes. Not much I can do about that.
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  #127  
Old 12-16-17, 12:22 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by Mad Dogg View Post
If they start 5 sophomores next year they won’t win a single game.
They might not win a single game next year, regardless. They're an awful Offensive team and their one good Offensive player graduates. So screw it, get the Sophs ready for a run the next 2 years.
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  #128  
Old 12-16-17, 12:26 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
The Royer kid is pretty athletic...that's exactly what they're missing. They have no athleticism.

The Cluxton kid can break down defenders...they don't have any of that. He could make shots easier for everyone with his ability to penetrate and pass.

Both could probably provide a spark on offense. They're not going to win them games all of a sudden, but it's something that should be considered.

If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But they can't continue to do what they're doing.
Cluxton was moved up and played significant minutes the final quarter. He did well Defensively, but made no impact on Offense. They're just so terrible on Offense, it's unreal. It's like watching a pickup game, zero organization, a total mess of non stop screening hoping one might break a guy open. Awful.
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  #129  
Old 12-16-17, 12:29 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by Elder Fan 67 View Post
Not the box score, actual stats. They don’t lie, instead of complaining about the younger kids playing, find out which players are doing nothing and replace them.
Most of the team is doing nothing.
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  #130  
Old 12-16-17, 08:05 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
Cluxton was moved up and played significant minutes the final quarter. He did well Defensively, but made no impact on Offense. They're just so terrible on Offense, it's unreal. It's like watching a pickup game, zero organization, a total mess of non stop screening hoping one might break a guy open. Awful.
That's my point about the differences in style between the freshman team and the varsity team.

They are going to take a talented group of players, that are averaging probably over 70 points a game, and force them into this varsity offense, and the result is going to be the same with them too.

I realize the current junior and senior class doesn't have the greatest basketball talent in school history, but these kids aren't this bad. I think most of this is a product of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Not one player besides Harp has the freedom to create a shot or do anything outside of the offense they run.

You are right, it's just non-stop screen, cut for a layup, and fade for a three pointer that is usually missed or not open. Without the ability to improvise, it becomes really easy to guard for opponents, and even easier when they know Harp is the only one with the green light.

Layup or three...and only within the offense...that's what they run. Never a transition bucket, never a post pass, never a drive to the basket, never an open mid-range jumper, never penetration and kick, never penetration and finish.

We've all watched these kids over the years...they're not this bad.They are turning them into robots with no freedom to go out and make basketball plays. You can tell players are coached and drilled into nothing but what the offense dictates, and it's turning them into the laughingstock of the league.
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  #131  
Old 12-16-17, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
Cluxton was moved up and played significant minutes the final quarter. He did well Defensively, but made no impact on Offense.
If they put him in to simply run the offense, then they're selling him short. That's not the type of player he is.

This will be true for most of the good freshman and sophomore players coming up these next few years. Scrap the offense and give them more freedom to be good basketball players.
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  #132  
Old 12-16-17, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
They might not win a single game next year, regardless. They're an awful Offensive team and their one good Offensive player graduates. So screw it, get the Sophs ready for a run the next 2 years.
It's not the worst idea.
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  #133  
Old 12-16-17, 04:18 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
That's my point about the differences in style between the freshman team and the varsity team.

They are going to take a talented group of players, that are averaging probably over 70 points a game, and force them into this varsity offense, and the result is going to be the same with them too.

I realize the current junior and senior class doesn't have the greatest basketball talent in school history, but these kids aren't this bad. I think most of this is a product of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Not one player besides Harp has the freedom to create a shot or do anything outside of the offense they run.

You are right, it's just non-stop screen, cut for a layup, and fade for a three pointer that is usually missed or not open. Without the ability to improvise, it becomes really easy to guard for opponents, and even easier when they know Harp is the only one with the green light.

Layup or three...and only within the offense...that's what they run. Never a transition bucket, never a post pass, never a drive to the basket, never an open mid-range jumper, never penetration and kick, never penetration and finish.

We've all watched these kids over the years...they're not this bad.They are turning them into robots with no freedom to go out and make basketball plays. You can tell players are coached and drilled into nothing but what the offense dictates, and it's turning them into the laughingstock of the league.
I disagree to an extent. The team two years ago, still scored points. When they have talented scorers, they open up the Offense. However, they have to give this team more freedom on Offense, bc they're a disaster running this motion offense.

And I understand, they don't have the personnel to compete vs athletic teams, so they try to "ugly" up the game with Defense. However, you can't be so afraid to open up your Offense that being down 10 points is essentially a death sentence. Austing and Byrne need to get more PT.

Last edited by Descartes; 12-16-17 at 05:41 PM.
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  #134  
Old 12-16-17, 04:59 PM
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It's not the worst idea.
Starting all 5 is a stretch, but at least 3 should start. Walker, Kehan, and Larkins.
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  #135  
Old 12-16-17, 05:42 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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If they put him in to simply run the offense, then they're selling him short. That's not the type of player he is.

This will be true for most of the good freshman and sophomore players coming up these next few years. Scrap the offense and give them more freedom to be good basketball players.
It was his first game on Varsity, maybe over time they give him more freedom. He certainly earned it last night.
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  #136  
Old 12-16-17, 09:13 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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There is a general lack of interest in basketball, isn't there? Has it reached the point of apathy?

It's almost like it's "oh well, it's who we are".
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  #137  
Old 12-16-17, 09:31 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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There is a general lack of interest in basketball, isn't there? Has it reached the point of apathy?

It's almost like it's "oh well, it's who we are".
WTF are you talking about? It's not there's a lack of interest, it's a lack of talent. I agree, they're better than this, but not much better. In a few years when the Frosh are upperclassmen, it will be a difft story. But the next few seasons are going to be rough.
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  #138  
Old 12-16-17, 09:51 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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I mean that if the football team was this bad, there would be 1,000 people commenting on it. I don't mean the players. I don't fault their effort at all. I think it's a combo of talent and system. Remember a few years ago, this junior class was supposed to lead them far. They went like 19-1 as freshman or something like that. How do you go from 19-1 to this? There was the same excitement for that group as there is now for the current freshman...what in the world happens?

People complain about football all the time, and they're still at least competitive. Basketball has been pretty bad for a 10 year stretch (except for 2 years in there), and no one seems to care.

They just don't seem to be getting everything out of it. But no one really expects them to either. It's like warranted questions aren't scrutinized for basketball...it's like an unwritten rule that basketball never be questioned? It's just odd to me that there's isn't more of an outcry for their mediocrity. As I said, maybe it's just apathy at this point.
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  #139  
Old 12-16-17, 09:55 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I mean that if the football team was this bad, there would be 1,000 people commenting on it. I don't mean the players. I don't fault their effort at all. I think it's a combo of talent and system. Remember a few years ago, this junior class was supposed to lead them far. They went like 19-1 as freshman or something like that.

People complain about football all the time, and they're still at least competitive. Basketball has been pretty bad for a 10 year stretch (except for 2 years in there), and no one seems to care.

They just don't seem to be getting everything out of it. But no one really expects them to either. It's like warranted questions aren't scrutinized for basketball...it's like an unwritten rule that basketball never be questioned? It's just odd to me that there's isn't more of an outcry for their mediocrity. As I said, maybe it's just apathy at this point.
Football is the alpha sport, that's why. It's that way for most D1 OH schools. It would be a difft story in Kentucky or Indiana.
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  #140  
Old 12-16-17, 10:00 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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And you're right, we should probably be more harsh in our critique of bball, bc they should be performing better. The last two games were complete failures and unacceptable for a team with avg talent.
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  #141  
Old 12-16-17, 10:06 PM
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But what in the world happened to the junior class that went 19-1 (or whatever it was) to this? How could this drastic of a turn have taken place? They are like different players now.

I mean there has to be some coach accountability in that, right? Did the players get worse? Can we expect that to happen with the current freshman class that will likely have a very similar successful record?

The Hofmeyer freshman team went 20-0...never made it deep in the playoffs. What happens?
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  #142  
Old 12-16-17, 10:13 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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But what in the world happened to the junior class that went 19-1 (or whatever it was) to this? How could this drastic of a turn have taken place? They are like different players now.

I mean there has to be some coach accountability in that, right? Did the players get worse? Can we expect that to happen with the current freshman class that will likely have a very similar successful record?

The Hofmeyer freshman team went 20-0...never made it deep in the playoffs. What happens?
Kids chose to focus on other sports (mostly football). That's why I like the current Frosh more than the group that went unbeaten. Three of the five starters are either exclusive bball players or their best best sport is bball. Nieman and Larkins could be D1 TEs, so I'm a bit hesitant to count on them.
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  #143  
Old 12-16-17, 10:16 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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And I do think coaching deserves blame for the playoff loss to LS from 2016. I think they needed to make a change at PG that the staff didn't have the stomach to make. I don't think there's any question, Braden Connor should've been starting. You can't have a Guard out there who is afraid to shoot when intentionally left open, it just doesn't work.
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  #144  
Old 12-16-17, 10:22 PM
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But that always happens (kids quitting basketball for football). It's been happening for 50 years there.

I've always been realistic about Elder's potential knowing how things have changed in the landscape of high school sports. With football, I think they've kept themselves relatively competitive. They aren't state powers anymore, but they're capable of beating anyone still. It's not like the kids focusing on football were college level basketball talent they were losing. They were mostly big lineman type of guys who just rebounded and knocked people over.

But in basketball, they're nowhere close, and it's kind of been that way for 10 years. They literally have no shot of a deep playoff run, and haven't for 15 years. Ramsey gets drilled all the time. Schoenfeld never does, and his program's decline has been far worse and much steeper. Some of this has to fall on him, but he's such a nice guy he gets a pass.
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  #145  
Old 12-16-17, 10:29 PM
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And I do think coaching deserves blame for the playoff loss to LS from 2016. I think they needed to make a change at PG that the staff didn't have the stomach to make. I don't think there's any question, Braden Connor should've been starting. You can't have a Guard out there who is afraid to shoot when intentionally left open, it just doesn't work.
And I think they are doing some of this with the current team. Schoenfeld loves the run through the wall, toughness, and defensive minded players. He falls in love with them and will continue to play them, even if it means they take a step back on offense. He's so loyal to some of those kids because they run through walls for him, but they simply aren't the best players in the program. This is what I mean when I say "pecking order."

Harp should have played a ton more on that team as well. But he was a sophomore...it wasn't his "turn".
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  #146  
Old 12-16-17, 10:57 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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And I think they are doing some of this with the current team. Schoenfeld loves the run through the wall, toughness, and defensive minded players. He falls in love with them and will continue to play them, even if it means they take a step back on offense. He's so loyal to some of those kids because they run through walls for him, but they simply aren't the best players in the program. This is what I mean when I say "pecking order."

Harp should have played a ton more on that team as well. But he was a sophomore...it wasn't his "turn".
Elder didn't have a problem starting 3 Sophs back in '13-'14. And that Sr class was filled with kids who were 2 yr starters bc they started on that god awful 2011-2012 team. Harp just wasn't as complete of a player to see more time. They did f*** up by not making Mosely a larger part of the Offense.

They could be doing a better job managing personnel, there's no reason for Austing not to see more time, unless he's not 100% (he is wearing a brace).
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  #147  
Old 12-16-17, 11:13 PM
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But that always happens (kids quitting basketball for football). It's been happening for 50 years there.

I've always been realistic about Elder's potential knowing how things have changed in the landscape of high school sports. With football, I think they've kept themselves relatively competitive. They aren't state powers anymore, but they're capable of beating anyone still. It's not like the kids focusing on football were college level basketball talent they were losing. They were mostly big lineman type of guys who just rebounded and knocked people over.

But in basketball, they're nowhere close, and it's kind of been that way for 10 years. They literally have no shot of a deep playoff run, and haven't for 15 years. Ramsey gets drilled all the time. Schoenfeld never does, and his program's decline has been far worse and much steeper. Some of this has to fall on him, but he's such a nice guy he gets a pass.
It also depends on the quality of player that quits. You're right, JS doesn't get as much criticism as Ramsey bc he is such a good guy and bball just isn't as important as football. Football represents like 90% of the interest in the athletic program, bball is like 5% and everything else makes up the remaining 5%.
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  #148  
Old 12-16-17, 11:27 PM
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Perhaps I'm expecting too much. I remember the 80s and 90s and it was always exciting and competitive. The 2000's have been blah. Along time of blah.

It's just not that anymore. And I don't believe the players today are worse than the players then. The drastic difference baffles me when most programs are getting better skilled players.
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  #149  
Old 12-16-17, 11:32 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Perhaps I'm expecting too much. I remember the 80s and 90s and it was always exciting and competitive. The 2000's have been blah. Along time of blah.

It's just not that anymore. And I don't believe the players today are worse than the players then. The drastic difference baffles me when most programs are getting better skilled players.
My expectations are higher when they have talent, but they should still be better than this even with lesser talent.

I'd also say our fanbase has lost a lot of the will to win. You've got parents on here almost bragging about how the Frosh football team was the closest blowout loss Trinity had all year. Guys like that would've been neutered by the real fans back on the day. Now it's all whiny idiots like V&R who use "recruiting" as an excuse for failure.

Last edited by Descartes; 12-17-17 at 12:51 AM.
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  #150  
Old 12-18-17, 07:46 AM
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I do believe Austing is limited with the knee. And I think Cluxton will or should get more playing time. They definately need more scoring from someone other than Harp. Marsh is struggling with his shot right now, but I think it will come. And as far as the freshman being able to put up big points, it all comes down to being able to get alot of layups because freshman don't get back on defense, where as you don't get that on Varsity, plus with the bigger kids the passing lanes arent as easy.

But I will say, this freshman class may be special, they have 2 big kids who are pretty athletic and can score, and the Keehan kid has a chance to be special.
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