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  #1  
Old 01-23-18, 11:15 AM
Red Raider2009 Red Raider2009 is offline
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Improving Dual Meet State Tournament

This topic was being addressed on a different thread but thought I'd start a thread on the subject.

The old system for the state duals had multiple negatives. The one day tournament is another long day because pools were used to allow more matches for teams. Secondly, the formula used assumed returning district qualifiers, state qualifiers, and placers would wrestle for that school the following year and also wouldn't get injured. The system also could not account for incoming freshmen. There was also no build up to the tournaments. I have been fortunate to attend the old state duals as a spectator (division II), as a wrestler (division I), and as a coach (division III). There was little talk about it on social media and the atmosphere felt like just a tough tournament rather than competing for a team state championship.

I've been involved as a coach in the current system and the progression through the bracket adds to the atmosphere. The team and fans see the progression and it's exciting to be around. There is more talk on social media because people have a week to see what teams are competing and it makes it easier to stop in for the two meets rather than an all day event. The atmosphere of competing at St. John's is much better than being at a high school because it feels special competing at the arena.

However, I do believe the current system could use some tweaking. The sub-regions should be removed. Secondly, only 8 teams should compete in the bracket. The old system's formula could be applied based on the current roster to create a list of top 14 teams and then coaches vote for the top 8. This would allow for teams with incoming freshmen to be considered or injuries to returning DQ's, SQ's, and SP's. This would still make it a two night event - but the meets are usually longer with more competitive line-ups. The first week would be two meets and the second week would be one meet. This allows for build-up and a shorter night for the second week. I think the last time I was involved with this current playoff system, the team arrived home about 11:00pm on a school night and had to wrestle in the league meet the next day. The one meet on the second week would avoid a long night for traveling.

I must add that I think the season should start a week or two later like after Thanksgiving but keeping the same dates for sectional, district, and state which leads into my thought that the state dual meet state tournament should occur on the following Saturday after the individual state tournament. I know the argument would be that guys not competing individual district and state would still have to practice but what coach doesn't want extra time to work with his wrestlers? There would also be the question if fans would drive to Columbus to attend after spending three days the week before at the state wrestling tournament. Those are things we would only know for sure by trying it.
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  #2  
Old 01-23-18, 03:28 PM
chidy chidy is offline
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Team Duals Financials

I haven't seen the Financial Statements for the 16-17 fiscal year because they haven't been posted yet but here's the numbers for the 1st four years that the Team Duals have existed.

12-13: $111,496 (Loss)- The year when there were 3 Wednesday Regionals leading up to Team State
13-14: $45,873 (Loss)
14-15: $53,328 (Loss)
15-16: $29,027 (Loss)

As you can see the amount of loss dramatically decreased when they went to only 2 Wednesday Regionals dates in the 13-14 year. And the loss dropped again by $24,000+ from 14-15 to 15-16.

In comparison the 15-16 Individual Tournament had a profit of $192,904

If you're interested in looking at these numbers yourself follow this link.

http://ohsaa.org/AboutOHSAA/OHSAAFinancials


I'm not sure what the answer is to make the Regional/Team State better. I'm guessing that in 2019 when regional tournaments are wrestled in one day at one site (8 per division for 24 total) it will bring the P & L closer to break even for OHSAA. Which will make them happier and less likely to scrap it.

Will it make it better for teams/fans? That remains to be seen. We will find out in about 1 year.
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  #3  
Old 01-23-18, 05:30 PM
PantherGreen PantherGreen is offline
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I dislike the idea of voting in 8 eligible teams per district, for the following reasons:
1) There is not always a great correlation between returning DQ’s and SQ’s and dual team performance. I can think of more than a few teams that have 2-4 studs and the rest of the lineup is average with 2-4 missing weights.
2) Just like the NCAA “March Madness” there will always be a slim difference between the last team in and the first team out.
3) Individual coaches do not see all of the teams in their region before voting; they are much more likely to think of “last year’s team” and discount year over year improvement.
4) A building program can use their tournament performance to gauge their growth year to year. Not every team can reasonably go into the season with a goal of competing in Columbus. For some teams, making it to second weekend would be a great accomplishment.
As an experiment, I am going to count all the #3 and lower seeds that make it to 2nd weekend per region.
I understand that current format has some non-competitive matches, especially in early rounds. But that is the nature of any bracket tournament. The 1/16 will by nature be less competitive than the 8/9. Every round should feature a few competitive matches.
All that said, I think the following changes would help make things more palatable for both the “established elite” and the “up and coming” teams:
1) Increase minimum # of wrestlers for a “team” to 10 or 11 filled weight classes (can’t remember where it is now). Maybe less for D2 or D3.
2) Give 1st week byes to top 4 teams per region. 90% of the time the regional representative will come from this pool, so it eliminates an extra week for them. The other 10% - who doesn’t love a Cinderalla story?
I say all this as a fan of a team that has lost in the first round for 3 years in a row, by combined score of 210-6. I think the boys (a lot of whom are now seniors), have a great shot at winning first round matchup and I like their chances in the second.
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  #4  
Old 01-23-18, 06:11 PM
momx3 momx3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PantherGreen View Post

1) Increase minimum # of wrestlers for a “team” to 10 or 11 filled weight classes (can’t remember where it is now). Maybe less for D2 or D3.
I agree 100%! When people say that duals are great for the sport of wrestling, they mean COMPETITIVE duals are great for the sport of wrestling. Duals between two teams with 8 or 9 wrestlers, that only end up having actual matches at 3 - 4 weight classes because of where the forfeits fall are dreadful. I think a requirement of 10 filled classes is very reasonable and would go a long way toward eliminating some of the painful early round duals with more forfeits than wrestling.
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  #5  
Old 01-23-18, 11:13 PM
1_beast 1_beast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momx3 View Post
I agree 100%! When people say that duals are great for the sport of wrestling, they mean COMPETITIVE duals are great for the sport of wrestling. Duals between two teams with 8 or 9 wrestlers, that only end up having actual matches at 3 - 4 weight classes because of where the forfeits fall are dreadful. I think a requirement of 10 filled classes is very reasonable and would go a long way toward eliminating some of the painful early round duals with more forfeits than wrestling.
Another option is to bump kids around to actually wrestle matches instead of trading FF's..
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  #6  
Old 01-24-18, 12:26 AM
spflyerfan spflyerfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1_beast View Post
Another option is to bump kids around to actually wrestle matches instead of trading FF's..
That must be a nice option to have for a team! Very few D3 teams would be competing in the tournament at all if there was a required 10 weights filled instead of the 8 required now. Most can do very limited bumping because there is no one on the team to bump around other than maybe a guy or 2.
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  #7  
Old 01-25-18, 08:17 AM
Lockjaw316 Lockjaw316 is offline
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For smaller schools without full lineups, could combining with another smaller team in the same region ever be possible? Or force teams to bump into matches instead of taking double forfeits?
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  #8  
Old 01-25-18, 03:50 PM
chidy chidy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spflyerfan View Post
That must be a nice option to have for a team! Very few D3 teams would be competing in the tournament at all if there was a required 10 weights filled instead of the 8 required now. Most can do very limited bumping because there is no one on the team to bump around other than maybe a guy or 2.
Requirement is only 7. Should be at least 8 maybe 9 to get things to be more competitive.

In D3 that might mean some of the lower seeded teams don't get to participate.
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  #9  
Old 01-25-18, 04:07 PM
wlpdrpat wlpdrpat is offline
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When people are paying to see 14 matches - they expect to see 14 matches. Get small teams to combine and create full lineups to register for the duals. If you don't have a full lineup then your option is to combine with another team to create a full lineup or don't participate. Borrowed team members can come from teams in your same region that are not participating.
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  #10  
Old 01-25-18, 04:11 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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And people complain about the "recruiting" that private schools (allegedly") do?
Think what this could lead to.
Unintended consequences!
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  #11  
Old 01-25-18, 04:16 PM
mailman112 mailman112 is offline
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Go back to the old system. Top 8 returning points from the state tournament are allowed to wrestle. One day winner crowned. 3 sites needed. This isn't rocket science. 95% of the teams in each division have zero chance of winning a tittle and they know it. So, why waste the practice time and expense? Please don't tell me to grow the sport. Ignatius lost the dual because they didn't put out a 20 or hwy. Funny thing is they have had both all year long. Sick? Weight issues maybe but you mean to tell me they don't have a 95,20 or hwy that could have gone?
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  #12  
Old 01-25-18, 04:25 PM
bluepride1990 bluepride1990 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlpdrpat View Post
When people are paying to see 14 matches - they expect to see 14 matches. Get small teams to combine and create full lineups to register for the duals. If you don't have a full lineup then your option is to combine with another team to create a full lineup or don't participate. Borrowed team members can come from teams in your same region that are not participating.
This should only be allowed under two conditions. 1) all wrestlers on the combined team come from teams with less than say 10 wrestlers, 2)the school districts need to be adjoining so there is some level of community.

This could be tracked based on "Alpha" data that is required to be submitted and enforcement by disqualification of wrestlers from the state individual series.

But to just allow combining of teams would just turn into a mess and is really not the point of tournament.
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  #13  
Old 01-25-18, 04:33 PM
Krasula24 Krasula24 is offline
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no matter what you do, there’s always going to be flaws
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  #14  
Old 01-25-18, 05:00 PM
1_beast 1_beast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlpdrpat View Post
When people are paying to see 14 matches - they expect to see 14 matches. Get small teams to combine and create full lineups to register for the duals. If you don't have a full lineup then your option is to combine with another team to create a full lineup or don't participate. Borrowed team members can come from teams in your same region that are not participating.
Good recipe for a "Club" state champ.
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