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  #1  
Old 03-04-18, 03:10 PM
XCFan98 XCFan98 is offline
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Indoor State Meet observations?

Please chime in on your thoughts about the meet?

Venue?
Schedule?
Administration?
Competition?
Issues?
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  #2  
Old 03-04-18, 03:40 PM
lane4 lane4 is offline
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Looks like the DI girls 4x8 will be insane again in June. After yesterday Mason's 8:56 state record is not safe(I cant believe I just wrote that)
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  #3  
Old 03-04-18, 04:44 PM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XCFan98 View Post
Please chime in on your thoughts about the meet?

Venue?
Schedule?
Administration?
Competition?
Issues?
Some of what you're asking was covered here & here.
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  #4  
Old 03-04-18, 05:30 PM
xcountry315 xcountry315 is offline
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The facility was amazing. Certainly a great place for a big meet.

It's a shame there is not a more centrally located facility of equal quality. It seems silly to have a state meet in the far top corner of the map.

Parking was an absolute disaster. I realize that the logistics of getting thousands of people in and out will be challenging almost always, but I was really surprised there were no workers helping to funnel traffic in a logical manner. It was a free-for-all with many folks just inventing parking spots. I drove around for nearly 30 minutes trying to find a spot.

Once inside, the meet was extremely well-run in my opinion.

The competition was fantastic. It blows my mind that teams are running this fast this early. 7:47 and 9:03 in the 4x8 is scary. Either of those times would be scary in May. In March, I haven't quite wrapped my head around them. Certainly fires me up for the first official practice Monday.
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  #5  
Old 03-04-18, 05:50 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Wi-Fi in the building. That needs fixed. Its 2018 Spire.
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  #6  
Old 03-04-18, 06:26 PM
RunnerAdespota RunnerAdespota is offline
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I arrived early for DII/III so parking was not difficult for me, but it looked bad when I left.

Talking with other coaches over the years, it seems like SPIRE gets a bad rep about how they run meets. I've had some problems in the past, but I thought this ran very smooth. Akron always felt very congested, difficult, and stressful to me. I was very happy to have it moved. I can't complain about location either since I'm just the next county over. But it did strike me as a little odd to put the state meet, however spectacular SPIRE is, in Ashtabula County.

Competition was great. I liked expanding to 24 qualifiers as it gave some of my kids opportunities.

Edit: but the poor cell phone connection. and the wi-fi. Dear Lord. It was very difficult to communicate with athletes as they arrived at the facility.

Last edited by RunnerAdespota; 03-04-18 at 06:34 PM.. Reason: addendum
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  #7  
Old 03-04-18, 06:29 PM
Run4Life Run4Life is offline
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"Wi-Fi in the building". I second this,. My phone's charge was killed without making a call, text, or no wi-fi. Too much metal in the structure? My old school did that with Verizon, always looking for a signal.

I am sure the coaches in control of the OATCCC would welcome sugestions for making this meet better, and several items have already been mulled for next year if the meet comes back to this facility, I will say it is not in stone that it will return there as both the meet management and the Spire officials will be getting together soon to check this out.

The issues of registration is a one thing that is being looked at definiely. Origionally it was thought that team registration packets would be available on Friday for those that were there for the run-throughs, but didn't have passes from Spire ready at that time, plus a couple other items that will be taken care of in the future.

Due to the passing of our Registrations spouse lat in the week there were some changes needed which I am sure you can understand. (Prayers and thoughts to Donna Joseph and family as they make it through this tough time).

I personally think that due to the number of items coming all at once the management did a tremendous job making this meet successful. Hats off to Jeff Sheets, Meet Manager, Zac Holland, Ed Lidderdale, Diane Krumpak, Julie Cole, Wayne Clark, Dugan Hill (and family), Jim Eperly, Doug Joy and his right arm, Sam Lehman, Neal Charske, Bob Karl and any I apologize missing for your efforts on behalf of the indoor athletes for the state of Ohio.

It is easy to Monday Quarterback when you have no iron in the fire, but I assure you, these mentioned all want this event to be the best competition and best run championship in Ohio, but all indoor.

1. The venue is top notch, I cannot think of any better available.
2. The parking issue-as much building being competeed there makes me think it is better to keep it gravel until they know where changes will end up to keep from asphalting and tearing out down the road. The lots were easier to get to than Akron's and much larger.
3. Seating. Wow, more than double what we hade in Akron for track events. I think they need to give some more thought for pole vault and long jump venue seating, but I have no suggestions. The coaching area for LJ/TJ and HJ was tight but workable.
4. I missed the jumbotron video at Akron following the races, I liked the event panels for LJ/TJ and Shot and Weight competitors. It would have been nice to have the screens in the team camp room on to watch races as they unfolded, maybe next year.

If we do go back to Spire next March, I am sure the meet will run smooth, lets pray for great weather.
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  #8  
Old 03-04-18, 07:51 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Field markers for jumps facing the stands. Had no clue what heights were being contested.
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  #9  
Old 03-04-18, 08:26 PM
Run4Life Run4Life is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
Field markers for jumps facing the stands. Had no clue what heights were being contested.
Agreed, they kept them sitting in one position, could have rotated it 45 degrees and back, but most of the parents watching the HJ were in the upper area behind the rail and in the windows.
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  #10  
Old 03-05-18, 02:02 AM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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As a spectator, I love that place. Akron was standing room only until the latter part of the meet. The seats with backs are nice too.

As far as phone service goes, AT&T is the way to go at SPIRE. I found that to be the case at the SPIRE Invitational too. People I was up there both times with had a different carrier and had no service, but my AT&T service was great (not a plug for AT&T; just stating what seems to work there. I'm sure the opposite is true somewhere else).

Was there for the D1 meet, and we got there right at 4:00, so there were a lot from the previous meet leaving. Crowded parking, but we didn't have trouble finding a spot close to the entrance.
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  #11  
Old 03-05-18, 03:02 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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As an FYI - none of the races over the 60m is statistically considered a LEGAL indoor mark for any record considerations due to the track being longer than 200m. I'm sure here most would know that due to their own knowledge, but maybe some newbies won't.
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  #12  
Old 03-05-18, 08:19 AM
Altor Altor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
As an FYI - none of the races over the 60m is statistically considered a LEGAL indoor mark for any record considerations due to the track being longer than 200m. I'm sure here most would know that due to their own knowledge, but maybe some newbies won't.
This would be dealt with by the record keeping "authority." If your school wants to count records set on a 300 meter track, there is nothing stopping you. I've never seen an NFHS indoor record list, but nothing in Rule 9 would prevent an oversize track from being included in their records. NCAA and USTAF may have such rules.
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  #13  
Old 03-05-18, 08:47 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
This would be dealt with by the record keeping "authority." If your school wants to count records set on a 300 meter track, there is nothing stopping you. I've never seen an NFHS indoor record list, but nothing in Rule 9 would prevent an oversize track from being included in their records. NCAA and USTAF may have such rules.
I'm speaking from a track statisticians position. I haven't seen Rule 9 in a long time, so I no longer know what they say. Schools always do what they want. They will find themselves disappointed on occasion to find athletes of theirs not on statistical lists, however, due to recognized rules regarding tracks over 200m in size indoors. Those will always have an asterisk next to those performances for anything longer than a 60m indoors. The big 290m/300m tracks that a number of universities and facilities like Spire are great in terms of training and hosting, but running marks from those meets (over 60m) will never be recognized at a national level for record purposes. The reason is that there is too little differentiation between running on those big ovals and an outdoor 400m track. 200m and less, then it truly is a different event, indoors.
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  #14  
Old 03-05-18, 11:16 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Not counting for national/world records is kind of irrelevant actually. That is an IAAF rule (and thus a USATF rule). I think now that all of the Ohio Indoor State Meet records are on 300 meter tracks. A quick glance through a couple of Big Ten and SEC school sites shows a ton of school records set on 300 meter tracks. Some seem to be keeping dual lists for regular and oversized tracks. The NCAA has a regular list (for times on 200 or smaller tracks) and a supplemental list (for oversize tracks). For championship qualifying purposes the NCAA converts times.

In any event, Ohio has no official state records for indoor track because there is no governing body that has authority over what constitutes a record. So questions like oversized tracks counting or whether marks at NBN count aren't really addressable. School records are entirely the province of a school, so saying that a mark is or isn't a school record is up to the staff at the school. For outdoor track and field, there are official OHSAA records, with rules. But those really only apply to whether or not a mark is an official OHSAA record. Schools and meets are still free to count marks as records as they choose. For example, most meets don't have win gauges, but still have 100, 200 and hurdle meet records. I recall one official freaking out two years ago about a mark not being "an official meet record" because there was no wind gauge. Even though the current meet record had been set without a wind gauge.

So in short, an argument about "official" records is moot. I really wish they had not been trying to announce state records on Saturday. (I had a moment of irritation I wish I could have taken back because of that.) No body has the authority to make such a judgment. If the OATCCC wanted to take on the responsibility of maintaining those records (and setting the rules for them) then we might have a discussion. It actually probably wouldn't be that hard. I bet if they started posting them here we could hammer out a list in pretty short order.
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  #15  
Old 03-05-18, 12:27 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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(1) WIFI
(2) Two Entrances. One for schools and coaches to enter and another for only spectators. They have 2 but they need to designate next year the difference entrances to make it less crowded.
(3) I had no problem with traffic at 2pm. Just busses stopping to let kids out which is normal track meet stuff.
(4) Staff and the ease in which coaches could go onto the infield was awesome. The staff was amazing and very nice.

Competition was awesome.

Glaring missing variable was the Northeast Ohio teams. Where were the Northeast Ohio teams? I would assume 1/3 of the state lives in Northeast Ohio but every podium during D1 was dominated by Central or Southwest Ohio teams.


Team Scoring
Boys D1
Wayne- SW
Centerville- SW
Only 4 NW Ohio teams in top 10

Girls D1
Twinsburg at #15 was the first NW Ohio school

I know that the state goes in cycles and it is only indoors, but with the venue being 1 hour northeast of Cleveland I was expecting 2-3 weeks ago a NW domination. But with entries and results it looks like that did not happen.
Especially on the girls side.
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  #16  
Old 03-05-18, 01:17 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
Not counting for national/world records is kind of irrelevant actually. That is an IAAF rule (and thus a USATF rule). I think now that all of the Ohio Indoor State Meet records are on 300 meter tracks. A quick glance through a couple of Big Ten and SEC school sites shows a ton of school records set on 300 meter tracks. Some seem to be keeping dual lists for regular and oversized tracks. The NCAA has a regular list (for times on 200 or smaller tracks) and a supplemental list (for oversize tracks). For championship qualifying purposes the NCAA converts times.

In any event, Ohio has no official state records for indoor track because there is no governing body that has authority over what constitutes a record. So questions like oversized tracks counting or whether marks at NBN count aren't really addressable. School records are entirely the province of a school, so saying that a mark is or isn't a school record is up to the staff at the school. For outdoor track and field, there are official OHSAA records, with rules. But those really only apply to whether or not a mark is an official OHSAA record. Schools and meets are still free to count marks as records as they choose. For example, most meets don't have win gauges, but still have 100, 200 and hurdle meet records. I recall one official freaking out two years ago about a mark not being "an official meet record" because there was no wind gauge. Even though the current meet record had been set without a wind gauge.

So in short, an argument about "official" records is moot. I really wish they had not been trying to announce state records on Saturday. (I had a moment of irritation I wish I could have taken back because of that.) No body has the authority to make such a judgment. If the OATCCC wanted to take on the responsibility of maintaining those records (and setting the rules for them) then we might have a discussion. It actually probably wouldn't be that hard. I bet if they started posting them here we could hammer out a list in pretty short order.
You make some reasoned observations and arguments.

With regard to someone having "authority" to make such judgments on "records", I would argue that your point is moot because record-keeping has been around from the beginning of track & field in Ohio and elsewhere since the latter 1800s when the sport began in the US. Record-keeping will always be the norm. I remember "state" records being listed back in the early '80s, and I've done enough research to know that kind of thing goes back into the early 1900's in Ohio HS. So, the argument regarding no one having the "authority" is really moot. It happens and always will.

If and when OHSAA ever decides to sanction "official" indoor records, then I hope they will adopt the standard 200m track for record purposes.
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  #17  
Old 03-05-18, 01:43 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
You make some reasoned observations and arguments.

With regard to someone having "authority" to make such judgments on "records", I would argue that your point is moot because record-keeping has been around from the beginning of track & field in Ohio and elsewhere since the latter 1800s when the sport began in the US. Record-keeping will always be the norm. I remember "state" records being listed back in the early '80s, and I've done enough research to know that kind of thing goes back into the early 1900's in Ohio HS. So, the argument regarding no one having the "authority" is really moot. It happens and always will.

If and when OHSAA ever decides to sanction "official" indoor records, then I hope they will adopt the standard 200m track for record purposes.
How many indoor
200 Meters
v
300 meter tracks are there in Ohio?

Off the top of my head I would assume 300 meter tracks are just as common nowadays in Ohio. Not talking about numbers but the number of people running on each surface. When I was growing up the only 300 meter or oversized track was Notre Dame in Indiana. Then Kent showed up in the early 90's. Now we have Kent, Akron, Youngstown and SPIRE.

Mathematically I 100% agree with your logic and reasoning.
But
I would think it would not be fair for the athletes because SPIRE/AKRON are the championship locations and where athletes peak. So Ohio should NOT indicate or convert for oversized tracks.

Realistically the 200/400/800/1600/3200 and the relays are huge difference. Most of my athletes improve by 1% to 3% on an oversized track. Our 3200 relay usually runs 5-10 seconds faster.
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  #18  
Old 03-05-18, 02:26 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
How many indoor
200 Meters
v
300 meter tracks are there in Ohio?

Off the top of my head I would assume 300 meter tracks are just as common nowadays in Ohio. Not talking about numbers but the number of people running on each surface. When I was growing up the only 300 meter or oversized track was Notre Dame in Indiana. Then Kent showed up in the early 90's. Now we have Kent, Akron, Youngstown and SPIRE.

Mathematically I 100% agree with your logic and reasoning.
But
I would think it would not be fair for the athletes because SPIRE/AKRON are the championship locations and where athletes peak. So Ohio should NOT indicate or convert for oversized tracks.

Realistically the 200/400/800/1600/3200 and the relays are huge difference. Most of my athletes improve by 1% to 3% on an oversized track. Our 3200 relay usually runs 5-10 seconds faster.
I think I'll take up the challenge and do an investigation of track sizes and the specific breakdown! Will get back with the stats later this week.
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Old 03-05-18, 03:08 PM
Finishtiming Finishtiming is offline
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On this issue of oversized tracks vs 200 tracks. I think you almost have to have seperate records for them but most importantly I think that OATCCC needs to have conversions for entries into the rankings for the state meet. Of the oversized tracks they have a few meets but most are completely full in first week they open for entries or are so big it is an all day/night event. This way the teams in the southern part of the state are not having to make multiple trips to oversize tracks during the year since they will have to at the end of the year already.
The NCAA does this already for entries to nationals as it is the most fair to those schools that cannot travel as frequently to oversize tracks to chase a time they need. I am sure that Directathletics could adopt a system for Ohio that would mimic the ncaa system and would be much easier at entry time for the OATCCC state meet. I know for a fact they do as we already had it laid out before the meet was moved.
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Old 03-05-18, 06:33 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Finishtiming, I agree completely about using conversions for qualifying. It really is the only fair way to do it. The NCAA conversions are pretty consistent with the available data.
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  #21  
Old 03-05-18, 07:38 PM
peebles peebles is offline
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Where can I find the results for the meet? Baumspage doesn't have a link, and a Google search has been fruitless. Can someone provide a link?
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  #22  
Old 03-05-18, 07:55 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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http://lightningtiming.com/results/#...-1cec333e-8376
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  #23  
Old 03-05-18, 09:15 PM
peebles peebles is offline
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Thanks! I'll bookmark it.
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  #24  
Old 03-06-18, 01:00 AM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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Just curious where banked 200 meter tracks figure into all of this. Several Ohio runners will be at the Indoor National meet at The Armory this coming weekend, and that is a banked 200 meter track.
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  #25  
Old 03-06-18, 08:18 AM
galesxc galesxc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveCrossCountry View Post
Just curious where banked 200 meter tracks figure into all of this. Several Ohio runners will be at the Indoor National meet at The Armory this coming weekend, and that is a banked 200 meter track.
The NCAA conversion factors consider 200M banked tracks equivalent to 300M tracks.
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  #26  
Old 03-06-18, 09:19 AM
cvctrackfan cvctrackfan is offline
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Once again I have found the following to be true. The following doubles are VERY difficult to accomplish

1600 and 4X800
4X800 and 800
1600 and 800

The 1600 and 3200
4X800 and 3200
while not as difficult the athlete will not be at his/her best..
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  #27  
Old 03-06-18, 11:19 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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the 1600-800 double is impossible for most kids. 30 minute turnaround....
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  #28  
Old 03-06-18, 11:28 AM
galesxc galesxc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
the 1600-800 double is impossible for most kids. 30 minute turnaround....
I agree, very tough... that's what makes the performances by Bons and Briggs so impressive!
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  #29  
Old 03-06-18, 12:20 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galesxc View Post
I agree, very tough... that's what makes the performances by Bons and Briggs so impressive!
Thanks galesxc!

I would like to see if the OATCCC would consider changing the order of events. The 1600-800 double is still going to be hard, just like it is outdoors. There is not really a way around that. But they could put the 4x800 as the first running final (or even run it between the 60 hurdle and 60 dash prelims) and make it more realistic for kids to run the 4x800 and either the 1600 or the 800.
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  #30  
Old 03-06-18, 05:11 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvctrackfan View Post
Once again I have found the following to be true. The following doubles are VERY difficult to accomplish

1600 and 4X800
4X800 and 800
1600 and 800

The 1600 and 3200
4X800 and 3200
while not as difficult the athlete will not be at his/her best..
How about the 400 and the 300m hurdless?


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