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  #1  
Old 03-17-18, 01:57 PM
cvwrestle cvwrestle is offline
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Mat Wrestling in Ohio

Why do we struggle as a whole? Lets hear the reasons.
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  #2  
Old 03-17-18, 02:06 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Originally Posted by cvwrestle View Post
Why do we struggle as a whole? Lets hear the reasons.
Those darned officials won't let Ohio guys mat wrestle.
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  #3  
Old 03-17-18, 02:22 PM
Tartan78 Tartan78 is offline
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In high school Iíve found there is a lot more emphasis put on wrestling from neutral. You can see it at a lot of the opens. You go out of bounds they start from neutral imho


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  #4  
Old 03-17-18, 02:57 PM
BHiatt BHiatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Those darned officials won't let Ohio guys mat wrestle.
Jim, there is some truth to that. Go to PA state tournament and see how its officiated. WAY different than in OH.
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  #5  
Old 03-17-18, 02:58 PM
lt7623 lt7623 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Those darned officials won't let Ohio guys mat wrestle.
I agree seems like the officials like to decide the match


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  #6  
Old 03-17-18, 03:24 PM
Heavy Hitter 1 Heavy Hitter 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Those darned officials won't let Ohio guys mat wrestle.
Jim there is a lot of truth to that statement. Could you honestly say Ohio official, officiate mat wrestling the same as in PA?
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  #7  
Old 03-17-18, 03:37 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Originally Posted by Heavy Hitter 1 View Post
Jim there is a lot of truth to that statement. Could you honestly say Ohio official, officiate mat wrestling the same as in PA?
Hey I put it out there before anyone else could. I am 100% sure that it would be the first thing posted by someone.
After all, officials are the easy target. Coaching and a different style of wrestling have nothing to do with it, right?
I would be happy to try and answer your question but I am not really sure what it is.
If you are asking if an Ohio official would officiate the same way in Pa, I don't know. I never worked there.
I will say that when someone is "working" toward something, I am more than happy to let them wrestle. I would MUCH prefer that the wrestlers do what they should do and keep me out of it. When they shut down or try to camp on a lead, well, the rules do not allow for that.
There is far more "stalling" in NCAA competition but they call it "riding" time.
No one will dare call stalling while riding time is building up.
They have their rules and we have ours.
Working is fine but in HS riding is stalling.
Just my $.02.
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  #8  
Old 03-17-18, 03:53 PM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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Were Darmstadt or Marinelli "bad" on the bottom? Was Pletcher good?
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  #9  
Old 03-17-18, 03:58 PM
BHiatt BHiatt is offline
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Jim - PA officials DO call stalling different. They put the emphasis on the bottom guy getting out, not the, tou are parallel for 10-15 seconds ao i ding you for atalling. Just the reality.

Sat with a few college wrestlers at this years state tournament - one from OH, one from PA. Kid from PA, when seeing the giys on top get called for stalling (and the guy on bottom called for stallimg whem standing up when top guy has legs in get called) said, no wonder most OH guys suck on the mat in college. The refs here bail out the guy on bottom - except that stupidity with the legs in.

Can we put more emphasis on mat wrestling as coaches, no question. Does how its called in OH hurt us in college. No quetion.
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  #10  
Old 03-17-18, 04:11 PM
Crab Ride Crab Ride is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Those darned officials won't let Ohio guys mat wrestle.
Maybe Iím wrong but I canít remember you ever saying an official was wrong or changes should occur. Itís always the coaching. Coaches coach according to how the officials officiate. I sat at the state tournament and watched match after match where a kid is up by one point in the 3rd and commented ďget ready for the stall call.Ē The reality is MANY coaches can do a better job and MANY officials can do a better job! The problem isnít mutually exclusive.
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  #11  
Old 03-17-18, 04:28 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crab Ride View Post
Maybe Iím wrong but I canít remember you ever saying an official was wrong or changes should occur. Itís always the coaching. Coaches coach according to how the officials officiate. I sat at the state tournament and watched match after match where a kid is up by one point in the 3rd and commented ďget ready for the stall call.Ē The reality is MANY coaches can do a better job and MANY officials can do a better job! The problem isnít mutually exclusive.
Do you know me or do I know you? if not, you have no idea what I say. You might have an idea what I write.
That said, I can say, with 100% certainty, that I have never written anything that says that an official is always right. I am not clear on what you mean by "changes" but I am all in favor of any change that makes the sport better and/or easier to understand.
Yor last statement is spot on, everyone can work harder and do a better job.

BTW, I know the perception of stalling calls during State Tournament matches. I would invite any of you to go back and watch some of the old State matches that can be found on Youtube. There are a lot of them and one will lead to another. I can guarantee you that stalling was called a LOT more often in the late 80's through at least the mid-90's. I am thinking of the Eddie Jayne vs Sonny Marchette match as an example. Take a look and see if there isn't a difference, for the better, from then to now.

Brady, I agree with you on the stand up example you gave but I want to be clear that what I think is not the way we are instructed to view it. I simply do not have that latitude per our interpreters. BTW, that is not a great example because in college they do not stop the action at all in that situation. In HS we have to stop it by NFHS rule.
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  #12  
Old 03-17-18, 04:51 PM
Heavy Hitter 1 Heavy Hitter 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Hey I put it out there before anyone else could. I am 100% sure that it would be the first thing posted by someone.
After all, officials are the easy target. Coaching and a different style of wrestling have nothing to do with it, right?
I would be happy to try and answer your question but I am not really sure what it is.
If you are asking if an Ohio official would officiate the same way in Pa, I don't know. I never worked there.
I will say that when someone is "working" toward something, I am more than happy to let them wrestle. I would MUCH prefer that the wrestlers do what they should do and keep me out of it. When they shut down or try to camp on a lead, well, the rules do not allow for that.
There is far more "stalling" in NCAA competition but they call it "riding" time.
No one will dare call stalling while riding time is building up.
They have their rules and we have ours.
Working is fine but in HS riding is stalling.
Just my $.02.
I would agree this is not a one sided issue coaches need to do a better job. But officials never want to admit how they call something does affects how coaches coach. For example, riding parallel for 30 secs isn't necessarily stalling, except in Ohio. If you are riding parallel for 30 sec in OH, 90-95% of the time a kid is going to get hit for stalling no matter what he is doing. How do coaches coach to that, we teach our kids to get out to one side. Here's the problem 2 kids can be doing the same thing on is parallel and one is out to the side. One will get hit with stalling the other won't, Why? I could be wrong about this and if I am would you quote me the rule says riding parallel is stalling.
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  #13  
Old 03-17-18, 05:49 PM
BHiatt BHiatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Brady, I agree with you on the stand up example you gave but I want to be clear that what I think is not the way we are instructed to view it. I simply do not have that latitude per our interpreters. BTW, that is not a great example because in college they do not stop the action at all in that situation. In HS we have to stop it by NFHS rule.
Understand about the stopping in PD situations that aren't in college and that is something you have no control over. But to call it stalling IS something that can/should be changed. It is upon the top man to return guy to the mat.

I also understand that how stalling is called in OH is how officials are being instructed to call it -- but that doesn't change the fact that it IS a factor not the only factor) in the difficulties OH kids have on the mat in college.

How stalling is called on the top man in OH is much different than how it is called on the top man in PA. I was coaching at the King of the Mountain in PA a few years ago. PA kid was smothering my guy on top, directly on the hips and controlling our wrists for at least 25 seconds. I said, "Ref, he's riding parallel, directly on our hips", he says out of the corner of his mouth, "welcome to PA Buckeye". Lesson learned. And I had to adjust how I coached up my guys. The following year, we were much more prepared to battle from the bottom.
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  #14  
Old 03-17-18, 06:01 PM
1_beast 1_beast is offline
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An amazing move on bottom I call the "Mossy log". Its very effective! Pull arms in and lay there like a fallen mossy log and 9/10 times the ref will ding the top guy if he cant get a turn.
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  #15  
Old 03-17-18, 09:30 PM
keithcarter keithcarter is offline
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I am fortunate to travel to PA for work often. I watch quite a bit of high school wrestling there.

The difference in stalling between top and bottom is 180 degrees. In PA its bottom guys job to escape. Very similar to college.

Ohio its top guys job to turn!

Very different mentality between the states. Look at mitch moore semi match. He got hit with stalling for riding! Many times riding from the side and still got called because he wasnt turning.

Let me also say i am not blaiming officials. Its how Ohio coaches seem to want it called. They start yelling for it immediately!
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  #16  
Old 03-17-18, 09:40 PM
Cjlewis01 Cjlewis01 is offline
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My personal experience this year

Multiple times I have had a kid called for stalling while only covering one hip going from a deep waist breakdown, head lever, bar attempt, then finally finishing the series looking for a 2 on 1 tilt (obviously never getting the knee loaded to truly attempt the tilt)

Meanwhile the guy on bottom only either puts his head down and hand fights or flattens out when the tilt comes.

When I had a second I talked to a couple refs after. One of whom reffed the match. Their words to me were that he could see he that my guy could have been actually been working but that he has to make a more concerted effort to get a turn or go to something else....

It blew my mind that we would reward the bottom guy for not attempting to escape.... that's a problem in my opinion, and it's a problem getting kids ready for the next level.
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  #17  
Old 03-18-18, 04:35 PM
4TimeFunk 4TimeFunk is offline
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One man can hold another down, but it takes 5 men to hold a crazy man down. Get crazy!
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  #18  
Old 03-18-18, 06:52 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Those darned officials won't let Ohio guys mat wrestle.
I know you are being facetious, but I do think that officiating in a state does dictate how wrestling is developed and has a long lasting effect, just as I think that a coaches mentality and philosophy have a huge impact on what is deemed important. Either way... it seems odd that the highest level of folkstyle wrestling is the NCAA tournament and comparing what is stalling in high school and what is stalling in college is absurd. Most of the wrestling community just watched the NCAA tournament this past weekend and I would say we can all agree that how our state seems to call things much different. If we are trying to prepare these young men to compete at the next level, we need to all be building under the same guidelines.


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  #19  
Old 03-18-18, 07:26 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
I know you are being facetious, but I do think that officiating in a state does dictate how wrestling is developed and has a long lasting effect, just as I think that a coaches mentality and philosophy have a huge impact on what is deemed important. Either way... it seems odd that the highest level of folkstyle wrestling is the NCAA tournament and comparing what is stalling in high school and what is stalling in college is absurd. Most of the wrestling community just watched the NCAA tournament this past weekend and I would say we can all agree that how our state seems to call things much different. If we are trying to prepare these young men to compete at the next level, we need to all be building under the same guidelines.
Coach Root
Coach,
It that were the case, and I don't particularly agree that it is, then we need to have and operate under the same rules, HS and college. As things stand now, they aren't remotely close.

The comparison with college is entirely legit. College officials don't call it when it is occurring (clinging on the opponents back) but use the cop out of calling it when below the waist or using a side head lock. They have a nice 5 second count and it gets them out of trouble. Watching last night, I could see two situations where they even bailed on making that call by stopping the count early.

I would maintain that, as an official, I have little to do with getting guys ready for the next level. In reality, there aren't very many (percentage wise) who take that step.

If you look at it with a bigger view, isn't the ultimate goal an Olympic or World title? If it is, I don't prepare the wrestlers for that step at all. OTOH, HS coaches aren't preparing their wrestlers for that step either.

Like was pointed out earlier, if I let an offensive wrestler just lay on the defensive wrestler (or anything close to that), I can be very sure that the coach will let me know that the opponent is stalling. It happens virtually every time.

Looking at things realistically, stalling is always a judgement call. I have long maintained that I could put 20 coaches in a room and they couldn't call it the same way either. It is stalling when it is the opponent but it is never stalling when it is their wrestler.

I would love for stalling to go away. It would make my life a lot easier. OTOH, when your wrestler is losing 4-3, with 30 seconds to go, and the opponent is just tying him up and laying there, too bad stalling can't be called.

I wish it was as easy as some folks seem to think it is.
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  #20  
Old 03-18-18, 07:39 PM
NCAAOHref NCAAOHref is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy Hitter 1 View Post
Jim there is a lot of truth to that statement. Could you honestly say Ohio official, officiate mat wrestling the same as in PA?
I do, oh wait, I am from PA... does that count??
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  #21  
Old 03-18-18, 07:51 PM
roughedge roughedge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Those darned officials won't let Ohio guys mat wrestle.
Jim you maybe being sarcastic but your answer is very true.

Why is ok for bottom guy to ball up with arms tight to side and head on the mat and just grabs and holds top guys hands. Then guess what happens of course top guy gets hit for stalling cause he can't do anything and sits on hips.

Just wondering why top always gets hit for not leaving hips but bottom guy doesn't get for just curling up in a ball. Watch stalling on top all weekend at junior high states but at NCAA it is stalling on bottom. Just wondering does this play a part.
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  #22  
Old 03-18-18, 08:03 PM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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Originally Posted by roughedge View Post
Just wondering why top always gets hit for not leaving hips but bottom guy doesn't get for just curling up in a ball.
The bottom guys do get called for stalling on the bottom. A lot. Far more frequently than the guys on top do. I don't have data to back it up, but I'd venture to say that stalling on the bottom is called at 2 to 3x the rate of stalling on top. If you see something different, we must attend different tournaments. Stalling on top is called too infrequently, in my opinion. There is definitely a lot of stalling on the bottom. But just as often the bottom guy is simply 'overpowered'. And, by rule, an over powered wrestler is not stalling.

In my experience, far too many fans simply don't understand or believe that the top guy can be stalling. I hear it all the time. Their wrestler is riding the hips with both boots in and they yell "stalling on the bottom!" .
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Old 03-18-18, 08:12 PM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
If we are trying to prepare these young men to compete at the next level, we need to all be building under the same guidelines.
In my opinion you should be preparing your young men for life and the sport they are competing in now. The % of high school wrestlers who compete in college is very, very low. Coaching them all in a manner to succeed at a level where most will never compete, with a different set of rules, is misguided ,IMHO.

This is only slightly less misguided than a college coach thinking it is his task to prepare his wrestlers for the Olympics.
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Old 03-18-18, 08:19 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambeau Fields View Post
In my opinion you should be preparing your young men for life and the sport they are competing in now. The % of high school wrestlers who compete in college is very, very low. Coaching them all in a manner to succeed at a level where most will never compete, with a different set of rules, is misguided ,IMHO.

This is only slightly less misguided than a college coach thinking it is his task to prepare his wrestlers for the Olympics.
I agree with what you're saying.

I was more or less referencing the problem with two different sets of rules for folkstyle based on age. I just did a poor job doing it.


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Old 03-18-18, 08:20 PM
roughedge roughedge is offline
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Originally Posted by keithcarter View Post
I am fortunate to travel to PA for work often. I watch quite a bit of high school wrestling there.

The difference in stalling between top and bottom is 180 degrees. In PA its bottom guys job to escape. Very similar to college.

Ohio its top guys job to turn!

Very different mentality between the states. Look at mitch moore semi match. He got hit with stalling for riding! Many times riding from the side and still got called because he wasnt turning.

Let me also say i am not blaiming officials. Its how Ohio coaches seem to want it called. They start yelling for it immediately!
Keith I agree with most of the things you said but Im not sure coaches want istalling called that way. Coaches and fans scream he is riding hips because they know they can get the stall call from most refs so they are looking for points for there guy. But I think that the high school coaches that are trying to get there kids to the next level would like stalling called like college.

Last edited by roughedge; 03-18-18 at 09:33 PM.
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  #26  
Old 03-18-18, 08:22 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Originally Posted by roughedge View Post
keith i agree with most of the things you said but im not sure coaches want istalling called that way. Coaches and fans scream he is riding hips because they know they can get the stall call from most refs so they are looking for points for there guy. But i think that the high school coaches that are tiring to get there kids to the next level would like stalling called like college.
+1
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Old 03-18-18, 08:28 PM
asylum55 asylum55 is offline
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My son likes to ride, I always tell him that high school wrestling is practice for the next level and to try and get enough points so you can afford to give up a couple stall calls. He even got a few called on him at state when he was riding off to the side working a arm bar...The bottom guy wasn't trying to move at all and my son got hit for stalling. Now don't take me wrong, sometimes he gets carried away with riding and sometimes I even yell at him to do something more. I agree with the other posts, the bottom guy should have to do more to get out from bottom.
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  #28  
Old 03-18-18, 08:32 PM
jarhead2 jarhead2 is offline
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"The Ohio Escape" as it is known around the country is when the official calls the top man for stalling so quickly that the top man has no other option than to let the bottom man go or risk getting called again.

I always thought the object of wrestling was to take down your opponent and control him or pin him. My simple definition of wrestling.

The problem is that the controlling portion of wrestling has been almost completely erased when we go top/bottom in Ohio. Stalling on top is called WAY to quickly thus there is little to no emphasis on teaching wrestlers to escape at the HS level. All you have to do is act like you are working. This then leads to our HS kids having problems escaping at the national level and getting off bottom in HS. Other states put the onus on the bottom man to get away not call stalling on top so they let them go.
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  #29  
Old 03-18-18, 08:48 PM
wash.c.h.legend wash.c.h.legend is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Coach,

It that were the case, and I don't particularly agree that it is, then we need to have and operate under the same rules, HS and college. As things stand now, they aren't remotely close.



The comparison with college is entirely legit. College officials don't call it when it is occurring (clinging on the opponents back) but use the cop out of calling it when below the waist or using a side head lock. They have a nice 5 second count and it gets them out of trouble. Watching last night, I could see two situations where they even bailed on making that call by stopping the count early.



I would maintain that, as an official, I have little to do with getting guys ready for the next level. In reality, there aren't very many (percentage wise) who take that step.



If you look at it with a bigger view, isn't the ultimate goal an Olympic or World title? If it is, I don't prepare the wrestlers for that step at all. OTOH, HS coaches aren't preparing their wrestlers for that step either.



Like was pointed out earlier, if I let an offensive wrestler just lay on the defensive wrestler (or anything close to that), I can be very sure that the coach will let me know that the opponent is stalling. It happens virtually every time.



Looking at things realistically, stalling is always a judgement call. I have long maintained that I could put 20 coaches in a room and they couldn't call it the same way either. It is stalling when it is the opponent but it is never stalling when it is their wrestler.



I would love for stalling to go away. It would make my life a lot easier. OTOH, when your wrestler is losing 4-3, with 30 seconds to go, and the opponent is just tying him up and laying there, too bad stalling can't be called.



I wish it was as easy as some folks seem to think it is.


They are certainly called differently. What is considered top stalling in hs is considered bottom stalling in college. And you are right. Coaches complain constantly. I hear it so much. Always looking for the free points instead of earning them.


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  #30  
Old 03-18-18, 08:53 PM
wash.c.h.legend wash.c.h.legend is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roughedge View Post
Keith I agree with most of the things you said but Im not sure coaches want istalling called that way. Coaches and fans scream he is riding hips because they know they can get the stall call from most refs so they are looking for points for there guy. But I think that the high school coaches that are tiring to get there kids to the next level would like stalling called like college.


And yes. I would prefer it called the same as college. 100 percent the same. Allow control.
But man, so many coaches and fans are relentless, looking for the free points and the kick out to get neutral without earning it.


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