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  #61  
Old 08-09-17, 03:26 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Okay, so that's a no on actually providing a meaningful analysis of whether changing human behavior will impact climate change. But you'd still like us all to do it anyway. "Because experts said so."

Sounds very scientific.
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  #62  
Old 08-09-17, 03:40 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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When the experts are scientists, you're definitely dealing with scientific conclusions. If you're going to refute them, you need data and it needs to survive scrutiny. Stupid questions do not suffice.
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  #63  
Old 08-09-17, 03:52 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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What am I refuting? I've seen no evidence presented about the degree to which humans are impacting climate change and what effects the actions you and other progressives are proposing would have.

You're proposing civilization change their behavior in a significant way. Usually the way a proposal works is you include a projection for what the results of your proposed actions would be.
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  #64  
Old 08-09-17, 03:56 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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Like 1.2 degrees F is going to mean anything to him. Or that humans contribute "significantly", or 37.748%, etc. None of it means anything. He doesn't even know what he's asking.

Just from health standpoint, we can estimate the shortened life expectancy of coal miners, oil and gas workers, the number of premature deaths by accident and cancers related to fossil fuel production and use, air quality, cost of environmental remediation, of security, defense spending, and etc. And we can demonstrably show that renewable energies are safer in every aspect from production to residential use, and more sustainable. Would any of that be part of your equation? I assume you are more interested in a financial metric. Which if examined properly fossil fuel industry attempts to hide MUCH higher costs through heavy taxpayer subsidization, some of which is mentioned. But at least we'd know what shell game you're playing.
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  #65  
Old 08-09-17, 04:03 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
What am I refuting? I've seen no evidence presented about the degree to which humans are impacting climate change and what effects the actions you and other progressives are proposing would have.

You're proposing civilization change their behavior in a significant way. Usually the way a proposal works is you include a projection for what the results of your proposed actions would be.
If you're going to argue that climate change isn't the fault of humans you need to offer counter-evidence, not stupid questions.

Other progressives Nailed it!
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  #66  
Old 08-09-17, 04:15 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Proving a negative. Very scientific.
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  #67  
Old 08-09-17, 04:16 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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Offering counter-evidence is not proving a negative.
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  #68  
Old 08-09-17, 04:22 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
.......Which if examined properly fossil fuel industry attempts to hide MUCH higher costs through heavy taxpayer subsidization, some of which is mentioned. But at least we'd know what shell game you're playing.
So the government (which makes more on fossil fuel taxation than the companies that produce it) is paying out money to fossil fuel companies to subsidize production and distribution? If you look at the budget, you can see billions being paid out for subsidies for car companies, people, power companies, and green energy producers but not a single line item for fossil fuels.
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  #69  
Old 08-09-17, 04:23 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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What evidence am I countering? I've asked you multiple times to what degree human behavior is impacting climate change and you've yet to provide anything beyond a deflection.
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  #70  
Old 08-09-17, 04:30 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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You need to provide evidence that counters the evidence that says human activity is driving climate change. You have to be able to argue that CO2 levels have not increased due to industrialization, and you have to argue against land-use changes (city-building, deforestation, increases in agriculture, etc.) having an impact on climate. And your evidence needs to be exposed to scientific scrutiny.
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  #71  
Old 08-09-17, 04:36 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Cool, sounds like you have evidence. So I'll ask again and hope you don't deflect for a 5th time.

To what degree is human activity influencing climate change? And what will the results be if no corrective action is taken?
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  #72  
Old 08-09-17, 04:41 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is offline
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There is loads of evidence. Your stupid questions mean nothing.
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  #73  
Old 08-09-17, 04:44 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
Wait, you would actually prefer a planetary shield against giant asteroids, than clean, renewable energy? Lol. That's a joke right?

Though I do consider it progress, your admission that some human interventions are warranted - even for natural events.
That's NOT what MB was posting about. He was basically invoking the precautionary principle with the side benefit of potentially developing clean renewable energy. So it wasn't a choice between clean/renewable energy and an "asteroid shield".

By the way what would you define as "clean, renewable" energy? Hydro? Solar? Wind? Geothermal? Tidal? All of the preceding? And how close are we to economically replacing coal, oil & natural gas with these sources of energy? BTW, I assume you don't consider nuclear renewable.

One final point, I have always stated that human activities can have enormous effects on local & regional climate. Deforestation is probably the one thing we do that has had the most negative impact. In fact some of the events that have been blamed on Climate Change, like the melting of Mt Kilimanjaro's glaciers, is due to localized deforestation which leads to reduced precipitation and less glacier regeneration.
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  #74  
Old 08-09-17, 04:59 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
One of my favorite quotes...

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
This is a simplistic non-scientists view of science. A surprisingly large amount of the information gathered through skillful application of the scientific method leads to information & conclusions that often in hindsight are wrong. Science is an intensely iterative exploratory learning process and anyone who says the "science is settled" should be viewed with suspicion.

The "science" supporting the notion that human activity is dangerously changing the earths climate is incomplete. Unfortunately becasue this area of research has a political component and is a source of lavish funding some of the "science" of climate change is also suspect. It is a field that relies far to much on reconstructing previous climate conditions to go along with the suspect adjustments of previously measured temperature data. Much of the unprecedented climate change "seen" in the last 100 years comes from these two data manipulation activities.

If you actually saw how they reconstructed previous climate conditions and the rational they use to adjust measured data points you would not be so confident in the accuracy of some of their more alarming predictions.
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  #75  
Old 08-09-17, 05:07 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Coal and oil use in the emerging economies of India and China will far outweigh anything we do here.

Is that scientific evidence enough?
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  #76  
Old 08-09-17, 05:14 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
One of my favorite quotes...

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."
I remember when scientists told us we had nine planets, and then later other scientists told we only had eight. I guess what they were telling us was true, but one of them is wrong.

"I do not believe global warming is caused by human activity" is a true statement. You don't have to agree, or believe it. But it's true.
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  #77  
Old 08-09-17, 05:15 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
This is a simplistic non-scientists view of science. A surprisingly large amount of the information gathered through skillful application of the scientific method leads to information & conclusions that often in hindsight are wrong. Science is an intensely iterative exploratory learning process and anyone who says the "science is settled" should be viewed with suspicion.

The "science" supporting the notion that human activity is dangerously changing the earths climate is incomplete. Unfortunately becasue this area of research has a political component and is a source of lavish funding some of the "science" of climate change is also suspect. It is a field that relies far to much on reconstructing previous climate conditions to go along with the suspect adjustments of previously measured temperature data. Much of the unprecedented climate change "seen" in the last 100 years comes from these two data manipulation activities.

If you actually saw how they reconstructed previous climate conditions and the rational they use to adjust measured data points you would not be so confident in the accuracy of some of their more alarming predictions.

Well, I mean, it is a "scientists view of science"...considering it's from a scientist.
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  #78  
Old 08-09-17, 05:21 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
I remember when scientists told us we had nine planets, and then later other scientists told we only had eight. I guess what they were telling us was true, but one of them is wrong.

"I do not believe global warming is caused by human activity" is a true statement. You don't have to agree, or believe it. But it's true.
Classic continuum fallacy.
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  #79  
Old 08-09-17, 05:27 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
Well, I mean, it is a "scientists view of science"...considering it's from a scientist.
My guess is that the person was a "science writer" or "science manager" not a lab based scientist. Because any scientist actually working in the field of research & development wouldn't right something so trite.
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  #80  
Old 08-09-17, 05:29 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Cool, sounds like you have evidence. So I'll ask again and hope you don't deflect for a 5th time.

To what degree is human activity influencing climate change? And what will the results be if no corrective action is taken?
There is literally no singular number like you are so intent on. That is why your question is stupid. To understand you have to read and comprehend the facts.

Sorry if that is too difficult and/or too much work for you.

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...humans-causing

https://scied.ucar.edu/longcontent/p...global-climate

https://climate.nasa.gov/effects/
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  #81  
Old 08-09-17, 07:59 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
Classic continuum fallacy.
Classic pretenious BS, and you are wrong.
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  #82  
Old 08-09-17, 08:20 PM
Michael Bluth Michael Bluth is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
End famine? Just a thought.

Besides, whatever little good we do with solar batteries will be undone by coal and oil in India and China.
Energy abundance is intricately linked with eliminating water and food scarcity. One feeds into the next.
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  #83  
Old 08-09-17, 08:37 PM
Michael Bluth Michael Bluth is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
One final point, I have always stated that human activities can have enormous effects on local & regional climate. Deforestation is probably the one thing we do that has had the most negative impact. In fact some of the events that have been blamed on Climate Change, like the melting of Mt Kilimanjaro's glaciers, is due to localized deforestation which leads to reduced precipitation and less glacier regeneration.
I agree, and by the way I believe nuclear power should and will play a big part in our energy future
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  #84  
Old 08-09-17, 09:36 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Scientists have been faking the numbers for a long time. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/eart...ndal-ever.html

Which of course is unsurprising.
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  #85  
Old 08-09-17, 10:28 PM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
Classic pretenious BS, and you are wrong.

How am I wrong?
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  #86  
Old 08-09-17, 11:41 PM
EagleGuy EagleGuy is offline
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We should pragmatically continue to develop renewables from a national security standpoint, creating a "diversified portfolio" (hedging). Thankfully, nuclear appears dead - at least for the time being. And, I am totally against "neighborhood" nuclear installations as was once proposed.

Issues, such as birds being fried (solar) or cut to ribbons (wind), need to be resolved.
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  #87  
Old 08-10-17, 05:04 AM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Good to see WSB filling the role of the snooty pseudo-intellectual. The slot has been open since that one weirdo had his meltdown and deleted his account.
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  #88  
Old 08-10-17, 05:47 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by fish82 View Post
Good to see WSB filling the role of the snooty pseudo-intellectual. The slot has been open since that one weirdo had his meltdown and deleted his account.
Ted did not delete his account. The redneck intellectual was banned.
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  #89  
Old 08-10-17, 07:19 AM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Originally Posted by fish82 View Post
Good to see WSB filling the role of the snooty pseudo-intellectual. The slot has been open since that one weirdo had his meltdown and deleted his account.
Yep, learning about intellectual biases and fallacies in Psych 101 makes me a pseudo-intellectual.

Doesn't make me wrong though...
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  #90  
Old 08-10-17, 08:06 AM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
Yep, learning about intellectual biases and fallacies in Psych 101 makes me a pseudo-intellectual.
No, #tryinghard to sound smarter than you actually are does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
Doesn't make me wrong though...
See above.
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