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  #151  
Old 08-13-17, 10:13 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
My contention is they pinpoint kids very early, ignore everyone else, and ride those same kids until they are Seniors...what part of that have you proven wrong?

You may think you have proven something based on what you think I am saying...but you haven't proven anything as it relates to my one and only point.
There's been plenty of kids who were grade school stars that never played. However, look at Deonta Belser. He didn't play a significant down until his Sr year. Elder allowed him to develop by getting stronger, adding weight. He ended up starting at DE over a Feeder kid. You'd be stupid to believe there's any kids on the bench at Visi that will grow to be 6'5" 240 Lbs.
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  #152  
Old 08-13-17, 10:15 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
The proof is they don't have enough true athletes.
I AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But if that's the case, and they're not going to play the recruiting game, how can you ignore the other 90% and be able to compete? You mean to tell me they couldn't find and develop 4-5 kids in each class based on the remaining 90%? If they can't, then they really got issues.

You either buy or build. Elder is not buying, and they are also not building. And it shows.
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  #153  
Old 08-13-17, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
There's been plenty of kids who were grade school stars that never played. However, look at Deonta Belser. He didn't play a significant down until his Sr year. Elder allowed him to develop by getting stronger, adding weight. He ended up starting at DE over a Feeder kid. You'd be stupid to believe there's any kids on the bench at Visi that will grow to be 6'5" 240 Lbs.
Honestly, I give up. I truly give up.

"i'd be stupid to believe there's any kids on the bench at Visi that will grow to be 6'5", 240",,,,halleluia....no effin sh*t. Guess who else isn't growing to be that big...the chosen ones. At the end of the day, they are going to be just like everyone else, save 2-3 per class.

Why should those connected kids continue to get to be the kids that represent Elder when others just as good as them are sitting the bench (not the studs).

You're looking at it from a "it won't matter on the field perspective"...I can buy that. I'm looking at it from a bigger picture enrollment perspective. Why would anyone outside of the 10% crowd want to send their kid to Elder if that's going to be the case?

And with enrollment already significantly declining, and with them apparently not going out to get athletes, this is another very large segment of the recruitment pool (90%) that they are beginning to lose.

I'm not talking W's and L's here...bigger picture.
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  #154  
Old 08-13-17, 10:30 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But if that's the case, and they're not going to play the recruiting game, how can you ignore the other 90% and be able to compete? You mean to tell me they couldn't find and develop 4-5 kids in each class based on the remaining 90%? If they can't, then they really got issues.

You either buy or build. Elder is not buying, and they are also not building. And it shows.
You market to these kids. See if the club teams want to go to a game at the Pit. Elder's never going to buy kids or make guarantees, but they need to get their foot in the door.
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  #155  
Old 08-13-17, 10:33 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Honestly, I give up. I truly give up.

"i'd be stupid to believe there's any kids on the bench at Visi that will grow to be 6'5", 240",,,,halleluia....no effin sh*t. Guess who else isn't growing to be that big...the chosen ones. At the end of the day, they are going to be just like everyone else, save 2-3 per class.

Why should those connected kids continue to get to be the kids that represent Elder when others just as good as them are sitting the bench (not the studs).

You're looking at it from a "it won't matter on the field perspective"...I can buy that. I'm looking at it from a bigger picture enrollment perspective. Why would anyone outside of the 10% crowd want to send their kid to Elder if that's going to be the case?

And with enrollment already significantly declining, and with them apparently not going out to get athletes, this is another very large segment of the recruitment pool (90%) that they are beginning to lose.

I'm not talking W's and L's here...bigger picture.
The enrollment significantly declined this yr, but they had a big class the year before. I'm not happy one bit with this year's enrollment, something I've said numerous times. However, you can't selectively ignore facts to fit your argument.
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  #156  
Old 08-13-17, 10:35 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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And those parents who send their kids to another school in hopes of having them be star athletes are bigger vaginas than you.
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  #157  
Old 08-13-17, 10:39 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
You market to these kids. See if the club teams want to go to a game at the Pit. Elder's never going to buy kids or make guarantees, but they need to get their foot in the door.
Once again...I completely agree.

But that has nothing to do with how they are handling the 90% who aren't the studs. Those kids have to be a priority as well if the school isn't going to aggressively market to more athletes outside of the feeders.

They have to find more kids in that group that aren't stand outs in 7th and 8th grade. There are PLENTY that could be contributors once they get to 11th and 12th grade if they are pinpointed, developed, and worked with just as much as the chosen ones.

The only kids that get that special development time are the chosen ones.
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  #158  
Old 08-13-17, 10:41 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
And those parents who send their kids to another school in hopes of having them be star athletes are bigger vaginas than you.
And there you go again...making these incredible jumps in what was said, because you obviously don't understand what I'm saying. This really isn't that hard.

Parents aren't doing that because they think their kid is going to be a star at another school. They are doing it because they want their kid to have a chance.

For a whole bunch of kids at Elder, they don't even get that chance.

That is 1,000% different from what you are saying.
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  #159  
Old 08-13-17, 10:43 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Once again...I completely agree.

But that has nothing to do with how they are handling the 90% who aren't the studs. Those kids have to be a priority as well if the school isn't going to aggressively market to more athletes outside of the feeders.

They have to find more kids in that group that aren't stand outs in 7th and 8th grade. There are PLENTY that could be contributors once they get to 11th and 12th grade if they are pinpointed, developed, and worked with just as much as the chosen ones.

The only kids that get that special development time are the chosen ones.
And I'm telling you, their impact is immaterial. Elder is trying to get non feeders interested, but it's tough sledding. However, they need to stay focused on this path, it's the only way to ever win at a high level.
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  #160  
Old 08-13-17, 10:44 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
The enrollment significantly declined this yr, but they had a big class the year before. I'm not happy one bit with this year's enrollment, something I've said numerous times. However, you can't selectively ignore facts to fit your argument.
What facts am I ignoring? What are you talking about?

You're trying to get me to agree to your argument, yet your argument isn't even the same as mine.

I have no idea how you can't understand what I am saying. You might not agree...but you are throwing completely different ideas out there and saying those are facts that dispute my claim, yet it has nothing to do with my claim.
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  #161  
Old 08-13-17, 10:45 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
And there you go again...making these incredible jumps in what was said, because you obviously don't understand what I'm saying. This really isn't that hard.

Parents aren't doing that because they think their kid is going to be a star at another school. They are doing it because they want their kid to have a chance.

For a whole bunch of kids at Elder, they don't even get that chance.

That is 1,000% different from what you are saying.
It's that way at every school. You think every kid at X, Moe, LS gets a fair shake? It happens, but if kids are at the school for the right reason, it won't matter. None of these kids getting passed up will ever be D1 athletes.
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  #162  
Old 08-13-17, 10:46 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
And I'm telling you, their impact is immaterial. Elder is trying to get non feeders interested, but it's tough sledding. However, they need to stay focused on this path, it's the only way to ever win at a high level.
They have to do both. And the impact isn't immaterial if they start with a broader group of kids at a younger age.
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  #163  
Old 08-13-17, 10:48 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
What facts am I ignoring? What are you talking about?

You're trying to get me to agree to your argument, yet your argument isn't even the same as mine.

I have no idea how you can't understand what I am saying. You might not agree...but you are throwing completely different ideas out there and saying those are facts that dispute my claim, yet it has nothing to do with my claim.
You talk about a significant decline in enrollment, but ignore the increase from just last year.

You also blatantly said the next Charles Woodson would never displace a "chosen" kid, which is 100% incorrect and has been proven incorrect.

Also, in the football thread, you're too stupid to understand Bittner and Massminster don't even play the same position.

You're overall knowledge on the program and school is poor, thus your opinion isn't to be taken seriously.
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  #164  
Old 08-13-17, 10:49 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
It's that way at every school. You think every kid at X, Moe, LS gets a fair shake? It happens, but if kids are at the school for the right reason, it won't matter. None of these kids getting passed up will ever be D1 athletes.
OMG...I'm done.

If anyone else understands my POV, and has an opinion on it, please elaborate. I'm done going in circles with pboy.

Last edited by trey2k; 08-13-17 at 11:07 AM.
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  #165  
Old 08-13-17, 10:51 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
They have to do both. And the impact isn't immaterial if they start with a broader group of kids at a younger age.
Unless any of these kids ever run a 4.4 40, then they're immaterial.
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  #166  
Old 08-13-17, 10:52 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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OMG...I'm done.
Yes, please be done posting here. This should be a forum for knowledgable posters, not whiny b1tch boys.
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  #167  
Old 08-13-17, 11:40 AM
Mad Dogg Mad Dogg is offline
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So what is your solution then trey? Do you want tryouts for west side basketball in the 2nd grade? Do you want 8 weststars baseball teams per grade? If you are going to whine and whine then bring a solution to the table.
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  #168  
Old 08-13-17, 12:00 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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If they are serious about building a pipeline of talent, then they should start a real AAU feeder system. Not former coaches and players who say "this has nothing to do with Elder" and "we just put this team together because they were friends". All of that is complete BS. The coaches are hand-picked by the Elder staff, and those coaches hand-pick kids. If that's how it's going to be...that's fine...but don't play everyone else for fools and say it has nothing to do with Elder.

Have two teams at each grade level starting in 5th grade. Take the kids who are obviously the best kids, but also take the kids that have height and skill potential. Have legitimate tryouts where the kids compete against each other for spots instead of the hand-picked nonsense that happens now. Have a coach that has no skin in the game (I know that's hard based on the many intertwining relationships on the westside), but someone that can put those relationship to the side, and focus on the talent and skill level.

I've been saying this for a year...I've offered many solutions. The amount of development that can happen for a wider population of kids would make a difference in results at Elder high school. Yet everyone always focuses on me saying they are not picking the best kids....which is far from what I've said.

The truth is...they don't want to expand because they know if they develop more kids, some of them might take spots of the hand-picked kids. And we can't have that happen. It's also one of the reasons why they don't want to open up recruiting, because they know they will have a sh*t storm on their hands if all of these public school kids starting coming in and taking spots. The politicking and game playing for playing baseball and basketball at Elder starts in the 2nd grade.

Last edited by trey2k; 08-13-17 at 12:15 PM.
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  #169  
Old 08-13-17, 12:28 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post

The truth is...they don't want to expand because they know if they develop more kids, some of them might take spots of the hand-picked kids. And we can't have that happen. .
This is the dumbest thing you've ever said. Coaches aren't ignoring kids development to appease the "chosen" kids. I've already given you one example of how that's false with Belser. Another would be with Josh Moore beating out Alex Lind at QB. Lind was a "chosen one" after his Frosh year, but overtime Moore developed into a better QB and won the job.

There's no grand conspiracy. Elder's been average bc their feeders don't produce kids with speed and no amount of training will help a kid go from a 4.7 to a 4.4.

I hate you for making me sound like a homer, bc there are things that could be done better, but you're so far off base with your accusations, I can't ignore them.
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  #170  
Old 08-13-17, 01:43 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
This is the dumbest thing you've ever said. Coaches aren't ignoring kids development to appease the "chosen" kids. I've already given you one example of how that's false with Belser. Another would be with Josh Moore beating out Alex Lind at QB. Lind was a "chosen one" after his Frosh year, but overtime Moore developed into a better QB and won the job.

There's no grand conspiracy. Elder's been average bc their feeders don't produce kids with speed and no amount of training will help a kid go from a 4.7 to a 4.4.

I hate you for making me sound like a homer, bc there are things that could be done better, but you're so far off base with your accusations, I can't ignore them.
Predictably, you take one sentence out of my entire post, and basically ignore the whole premise of my argument.

Because they don't have enough feeder talent, they either have to 1) develop more of the talent they have (broaden the kids they are focusing on at an earlier age) or 2) go get better talent, or 3) do both.

They are doing neither well. How many ways must I lay this out before you actually understand what I'm saying?

This approach is in no way controversial. This isn't me complaining about them not selecting the best kids, this isn't me complaining of johnny not making the team, or "sour grapes" because my son, or my brother, or my nephew, or my friend's kids, didn't make the team. It's a potential solution, which some say that I've never come up with. I'm the one offering the solutions...everyone else is saying I'm complaining. I don't get it.

It's a strategic directional decision that I believe the school has to make in the investment of a broader range of kids at a much younger level in order for them to compete if they aren't going to go out an play the recruiting game. It makes sense, it's sound logic, and it's nothing how many of you are portraying it.
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  #171  
Old 08-13-17, 01:53 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Predictably, you take one sentence out of my entire post, and basically ignore the whole premise of my argument.

Because they don't have enough feeder talent, they either have to 1) develop more of the talent they have (broaden the kids they are focusing on at an earlier age) or 2) go get better talent, or 3) do both.

They are doing neither well. How many ways must I lay this out before you actually understand what I'm saying?

This approach is in no way controversial. This isn't me complaining about them not selecting the best kids, this isn't me complaining of johnny not making the team, or "sour grapes" because my son, or my brother, or my nephew, or my friend's kids, didn't make the team. It's a potential solution, which some say that I've never come up with. I'm the one offering the solutions...everyone else is saying I'm complaining. I don't get it.

It's a strategic directional decision that I believe the school has to make in the investment of a broader range of kids at a much younger level in order for them to compete if they aren't going to go out an play the recruiting game. It makes sense, it's sound logic, and it's nothing how many of you are portraying it.
Bc that sentence is beyond stupid and voids everything else you have to say. You're implying coaches are purposefully stunting the development of kids to make the "Chosen" look better. That's f***in' dumb.

And your entire argument is complaining they aren't playing the best kids. I can't be the only poster who sees the stupidity in your posts.
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  #172  
Old 08-13-17, 01:59 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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I've never implied they aren't playing the best kids. I've directly said their focus on a small minority directly impacts the development of the large majority. Again, how you don't see the difference is beyond me.

In the absence of opening up recruiting beyond these kids (which is an obvious void), you can't compete ignoring the other 90%, especially when the studs in 6th grade are no longer the studs in 11th grade.

How many of the 7-8 kids that play both ways at Visi will be just like everyone else when they're 16? Probably 5-6 of them. 1-2 will still be stand-outs and the others will be like everyone else.

Who's to say some of the kids that weren't the focus wouldn't have made tremendous strides to pass them up if they were the focus of some of the development?

They could be successful using this model if 4-5 public school recruits were coming through the doors in each class...but they're not.

And FYI...there are plenty of things to be done to take your 4.7 40 time down to 4.4. It seems to happen everywhere else.
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  #173  
Old 08-13-17, 02:21 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I've never implied they aren't playing the best kids. I've directly said their focus on a small minority directly impacts the development of the large majority. Again, how you don't see the difference is beyond me.

In the absence of opening up recruiting beyond these kids (which is an obvious void), you can't compete ignoring the other 90%, especially when the studs in 6th grade are no longer the studs in 11th grade.

How many of the 7-8 kids that play both ways at Visi will be just like everyone else when they're 16? Probably 5-6 of them. 1-2 will still be stand-outs and the others will be like everyone else.

Who's to say some of the kids that weren't the focus wouldn't have made tremendous strides to pass them up if they were the focus of some of the development?

They could be successful using this model if 4-5 public school recruits were coming through the doors in each class...but they're not.

And FYI...there are plenty of things to be done to take your 4.7 40 time down to 4.4. It seems to happen everywhere else.
That's what you are absolutely implying. You said as much with the Bittner/Massminster discussion and Charles Woodson comments. You're so mind numbingly dumb, it's unreal. I'm done with your b1tch azz. Anyone who listens to what you say is almost as big a half wit as you.
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  #174  
Old 08-13-17, 03:20 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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I'm so stupid, yet the results keep bearing out much more closely what I say vs. what you say.

And after they go 6-4 this year, I'll again have to hear how I am wrong and you are right, even though those results say the opposite.

You can't have conversations with people like you. The only thing that matters to you is your opinion.
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  #175  
Old 08-13-17, 04:48 PM
Mad Dogg Mad Dogg is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post


The truth is...they don't want to expand because they know if they develop more kids, some of them might take spots of the hand picked kids.
Single dumbest thing I have ever seen on this site.
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  #176  
Old 08-13-17, 04:50 PM
Mad Dogg Mad Dogg is offline
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And trey, why would you start a youth program and not ask former players to coach it? Do you think if elder started a youth music program they would ask former musicians to start it? Of course they would.
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  #177  
Old 08-13-17, 04:55 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by Mad Dogg View Post
And trey, why would you start a youth program and not ask former players to coach it? Do you think if elder started a youth music program they would ask former musicians to start it? Of course they would.
I actually like the idea of combining Dominic, the PH parishes, and outside kids into a Panther Program. I'd also combine Lourdes & Antoninous, leave Jude, Victory (most years), Visi, and Ignatius.
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  #178  
Old 08-13-17, 05:54 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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trey makes a point and then continues his thought and counters his original point, it's hilarious. I didn't think it was possible for one person to reiterate themselves as much as Pboy and now here's trey.
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  #179  
Old 08-13-17, 06:43 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Mad Dogg View Post
And trey, why would you start a youth program and not ask former players to coach it? Do you think if elder started a youth music program they would ask former musicians to start it? Of course they would.
Like I said from the original post. If they want to run their program that way, that's fine. But don't play everyone for fools and tell them that the youth programs have nothing to do with Elder, and the AAU teams in 7th and 8th grade have nothing to do with making Elder.

And especially let's not hear "those teams were put together because they were all friends".

For the kids going into 8th grade, there are probably 4-5 kids that are guarantees. Everyone else, from 6-20 are pretty damn close. There is ZERO reason to not have at least 2 teams and let those remaining kids compete for the final 10 spots at Elder. I would also venture to guess that 50-75% of the kids on the team are westside redshirts. The level of dominance they have right now will not exist for most of them by the time they reach Junior year.

Every year, you look at the Moe and X freshman and JV benches and there are 20 kids sitting there, because they do this exact same thing. Put it in the hands of the kids.

I cannot see why anyone would have an issue with that. It's mind boggling.

Last edited by trey2k; 08-13-17 at 07:02 PM.
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  #180  
Old 08-13-17, 09:31 PM
voiceoreaso voiceoreaso is offline
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So once again you are stating that Elder coaches don't take the best players because they would rather lose and just take kids they are the "chosen ones ". You obviously don't know Ramsey or Schonfeld. Makes a lot of sense. They put hours into coaching to lose. They spend hours away from family to lose. You have made yourself look like an idiot. I'm guessing you have never coached
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