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  #121  
Old 08-12-17, 07:52 PM
voiceoreaso voiceoreaso is offline
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Could give examples of all these kids that are getting screwed besides you or your kid? I would like to know the names your referring to.
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  #122  
Old 08-12-17, 08:02 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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at the clown suggesting Visi needs to play other teams because the scrimmage looked bad today. These grade school teams have all of what, 6 practices under their belts? Come back in October and we'll see how things played out. Perfect example of overreaction Monday by an arm chair QB.
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  #123  
Old 08-12-17, 08:04 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Originally Posted by voiceoreaso View Post
Could give examples of all these kids that are getting screwed besides you or your kid? I would like to know the names your referring to.
This is why sour grapes gets brought up all the time trey. You never provide examples. Is it plausible this happens? Absolutely. And I don't disagree with your point but until you provide examples people are going to think you're a whiny dad who's kid is getting screwed.
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  #124  
Old 08-12-17, 08:10 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Of course it happens in high school, that's my whole damn point.

Most of these "studs" are 1-1.5 years older than their peers. That's part of the dominance you see from them. For kids pre-puberty, that is a HUGE advantage. You mean to tell me that kids that develop at 14 and 15 shouldn't be given just as much of a chance than kids that developed in 7th and 8th grade?

Of course they can...but all the attention is on the kids that dominate grade school. For a school looking for deeper and more talent, and unwilling to open up recruiting, YOU CAN'T PUT ALL YOUR EGGS IN THAT BASKET.

You have to develop the rest of the crew as you WILL find later developers that can be difference makers. THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN.

We've been having this conversation for 12 months, and I honestly still don't think you understand my POV.
And I'm telling you, it doesn't matter when it comes to the Feeder kids. There's no material difference most of the time. Again, when Elder benches The next Charles Woodson, then we'll talk.
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  #125  
Old 08-12-17, 08:19 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
This is why sour grapes gets brought up all the time trey. You never provide examples. Is it plausible this happens? Absolutely. And I don't disagree with your point but until you provide examples people are going to think you're a whiny dad who's kid is getting screwed.
There's definitely favoritism, it happens at every grade school. The idiocy is thinking its deterring uber talented kids from playing.

If there's ever situation where a kid gets screwed over in favor of a Visi kid or any kid with a notable name, I'll be the first to call them out. Until then, what's hampering them is lack of athletes on the back end of the Defense. Fix that and Elder's in good shape.
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  #126  
Old 08-12-17, 10:54 PM
Elder/Bucksfan Elder/Bucksfan is offline
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I know its and X example however Justin Hillard was a 140 pounds and on the St X B-team his freshman year! By the time he was a senior He was ranked as the #1 linebacker in the Country and was a US Army all American. If my memory serves me correctly Kyle Rudolph wasn't the best athlete on his team until his high school days! In my years working in sports media late bloomers always seen to go farther the early rising athletes because they have to work harder to get there. The only early rising athlete I have ever covered that was great when he was younger and maintained his greatness was LeBron and he was a rare freak!
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  #127  
Old 08-12-17, 10:57 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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I'm going to lay this out for everyone, as there are ZERO people that are understanding my point of view. It has ZERO to do with kids getting screwed...it's going to be a long post, because obviously no one understands what I've been saying for a year (and honestly, I can't comprehend why people can't understand this)....
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  #128  
Old 08-12-17, 11:07 PM
Elder/Bucksfan Elder/Bucksfan is offline
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Adselder09! Sorry!!!! I said I know it was early. There's just a lot of uncharacteristically interesting moves by the coaches. There great coaches but all im saying is focus on developing all your players not just the ones that you can ride to win now with! Again isn't this level about preparing guys for the next level and In most of the coaches eyes at Visi the next level in success should be at at Elder!
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  #129  
Old 08-12-17, 11:34 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Kids gets "a name" starting in grade school. We all know them. We all know who they are. Most of the time, these "name" kids are Westside redshirts (what I refer to what we do on the Westside...instead of redshirting a kid in 8th grade, we do it when they enter kindergarten). It doesn't happen all of the time, but most of the kids that dominate grade school are westside redshirts.

Everyone drools over them for their dominance in grade school, even though they are a year to a year and half older than their peers. These kids, because of their dominance are the stars on Westars (or whatever the flavor of the week is in select baseball), they play for the little Panthers (or whatever they call the AAU Elder basketball team), they have a reputationt in football.

Most of these kids are also the connected kids. Strong Visi ties to Elder coaches, strong ties to former players, strong ties to friends and family of coaches. I'm not specifically calling Visi out as the only culprit, but they are the largest feeder...plus they also have a ton of former players that either coach, have connections to coaches, or are family members to coaches and former players.

Because of these ties, and family and friend connections, and family and friend conversations, these kids become the "chosen ones" as the next generation of Elder players. They are pinpointed as early as 4th and 5th grade. These are the kids that get the attention. All of this is fine...they are the best kids AT THAT TIME. But remember, these are the westside redshirts...they got a year on everyone in 5th and 6th grade, which makes a huge difference.

Fast forward to 7th and 8th grade...these are the kids that make the select teams again. There is RARELY any turnover once these kids are pinpointed. They learn Elder's system, and plays, and strategies. They are targeted for the next generation of Elder athlete.

9th grade comes...they are still young enough to somewhat have an edge in sports, bu the gap is closing. The other schools are playing their best on JV, and most Elder freshman teams are super successful. Why? Because the chosen ones are experiencing their last year of dominance. Kids that have caught up are playing up...and the Elder kids still have that size and age advantage as freshman.

But then something changes...this thing called puberty hits. And all of a sudden, these chosen ones aren't so chosen anymore. They're not dominating anymore. Because they were so much older, they peaked in 8th and 9th grade. That 6 foot kid in 7th grade is still 6 foot as a 10th grader.

So, it's time to make some changes right? Oh no...that kid "knows the system", and is "loved by the coaches". Who once was dominant is now "a gamer"..."plays like an Elder kid". And all of these kids sitting on the sideline KNOW that there are 4-5 kids that have passed this kid up...yet this kid still plays, sometimes even starts. The kids parents are friends with coaches, and friends of the program, or their big brother was an Elder stud...that kid stays. He "bleeds purple".

Then what happens...those 4-5 other kids and their parents start saying "WTF is going on here". It's obvious who the better player is. Those kids and parents become "attitude problems" and they have "sour grapes". Or worse...those kids with tremendous upside and potential are ignored as 9th and 10th graders. They've quit the team because they see the writing on the wall. They're labeled as "quitters", even though they've been given a raw deal from the start.

The same kids identified in 5th and 6th grade are the same kids that, most of the time, we see as starters on varsity, in multiple sports. That's FANTASTIC if Elder is winning titles. Problem is, for 10 years, they've won nothing. There's zero reason for kids to be identified and developed so early if it's not providing the returns that these select programs should be providing. I would argue that it's had THE DIRECT OPPOSITE EFFECT on Elder sports.

What should a fertile development ground for MANY kids has turned into a political machine for a FEW kids...and the results have been disastrous.

Elder baseball, basketball, and football, in the past year, have all been super mediocre. There are kids already pinpointed and guaranteed for football, basketball, and baseball for the next season. That's a fact. If you're team is .500, which most of them were close to, there is zero reason to not open up spots to other kids that have no doubtedly passed up kids that produced .500 seasons.

Take basketball...there are some obvious kids that should be on the team (Harp, Marsh, O'Brien). They went .500. You can't tell me you can't find 9 other players in the school that would also get them to .500 next year. Yet there are likely 7-8 other kids that are pretty much guarantees to make the team. That's not right.

I agree that the feeder school talent is now not good enough to get them state, or even regional titles. In a situation where they are already hurting for enrollment, it does them ZERO good to limit the pool of athletes THAT ARE ALREADY THERE, but that is what's happening. If they're not going to play the recruiting game, then they have to do a much better job of evaluating and developing more kids than just those that shine in grade school.

Why? Because of those 8 kids currently at Visi...1-2 will go to X. 2-3 are done growing...they've peaked. Just take a look at their parents....there's no 6'8' guys in the mix. In 2-3 years, they're average joe elder.

For the 100th time....I am not calling out any kid whatsoever. I think the kids that they are focused on are the best kids...but they are ignoring the other 90%...and that is a HUGE mistake. They are ignoring most of their talent pool, because those kids weren't superstars in grade school. If there is one paragraph to pay attention to in this long rambling, this hits my point the most.

BROADEN their development to the grade studs AND the kids that show the potential to be great, but may not get their until 11th grade. Stop ignoring them...stop putting the grade school studs and legacy names on a pedestal.

Last edited by trey2k; 08-13-17 at 12:03 AM.
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  #130  
Old 08-12-17, 11:44 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by voiceoreaso View Post
Could give examples of all these kids that are getting screwed besides you or your kid? I would like to know the names your referring to.
Once again...please comprehend my argument. It's not about specific kids...it's about Elder's system of choosing and evaluating talent.
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  #131  
Old 08-12-17, 11:45 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
And I'm telling you, it doesn't matter when it comes to the Feeder kids. There's no material difference most of the time. Again, when Elder benches The next Charles Woodson, then we'll talk.
Completely separate arguments.
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  #132  
Old 08-12-17, 11:49 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Elder/Bucksfan View Post
I know its and X example however Justin Hillard was a 140 pounds and on the St X B-team his freshman year! By the time he was a senior He was ranked as the #1 linebacker in the Country and was a US Army all American. If my memory serves me correctly Kyle Rudolph wasn't the best athlete on his team until his high school days! In my years working in sports media late bloomers always seen to go farther the early rising athletes because they have to work harder to get there. The only early rising athlete I have ever covered that was great when he was younger and maintained his greatness was LeBron and he was a rare freak!
B teams are a great development group to expand on this issue. Do these teams exist at Elder for all of the major sports? Why not?
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  #133  
Old 08-12-17, 11:59 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
This is why sour grapes gets brought up all the time trey. You never provide examples. Is it plausible this happens? Absolutely. And I don't disagree with your point but until you provide examples people are going to think you're a whiny dad who's kid is getting screwed.
Please, please, please comprehend.

Systematic...not specific. Starts well before they even step one foot in the halls.
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  #134  
Old 08-13-17, 12:29 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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I don't disagree that this happens to a few kids here and there, but it isn't as overblown as you're making it out to be. There aren't 4-5 kids riding the bench that are better than a starter, that's a total exaggeration. The crowning of kids in grade school absolutely happens. Visi has had several classes crowned that haven't brought home any hardware once they get to Elder.
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  #135  
Old 08-13-17, 12:39 AM
Elder/Bucksfan Elder/Bucksfan is offline
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Great Post Trey2K!!!!!!
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  #136  
Old 08-13-17, 02:58 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Completely separate arguments.
It's literally an argument you made a few posts ago. At this point, I can't tell if you're trolling or slow.

Last edited by Descartes; 08-13-17 at 03:26 AM.
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  #137  
Old 08-13-17, 02:59 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by Elder/Bucksfan View Post
Great Post Trey2K!!!!!!
Nobody gives a f*** your kid didn't get to play. If your kid's as talented at football as you are at posting, he should never see the field.

Last edited by Descartes; 08-13-17 at 03:23 AM.
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  #138  
Old 08-13-17, 03:00 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
I don't disagree that this happens to a few kids here and there, but it isn't as overblown as you're making it out to be. There aren't 4-5 kids riding the bench that are better than a starter, that's a total exaggeration. The crowning of kids in grade school absolutely happens. Visi has had several classes crowned that haven't brought home any hardware once they get to Elder.
The last class that was a complete bust was '12, made up mostly of your Victory kids.

Last edited by Descartes; 08-13-17 at 03:23 AM.
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  #139  
Old 08-13-17, 03:09 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Kids gets "a name" starting in grade school. We all know them. We all know who they are. Most of the time, these "name" kids are Westside redshirts (what I refer to what we do on the Westside...instead of redshirting a kid in 8th grade, we do it when they enter kindergarten). It doesn't happen all of the time, but most of the kids that dominate grade school are westside redshirts.

Everyone drools over them for their dominance in grade school, even though they are a year to a year and half older than their peers. These kids, because of their dominance are the stars on Westars (or whatever the flavor of the week is in select baseball), they play for the little Panthers (or whatever they call the AAU Elder basketball team), they have a reputationt in football.

Most of these kids are also the connected kids. Strong Visi ties to Elder coaches, strong ties to former players, strong ties to friends and family of coaches. I'm not specifically calling Visi out as the only culprit, but they are the largest feeder...plus they also have a ton of former players that either coach, have connections to coaches, or are family members to coaches and former players.

Because of these ties, and family and friend connections, and family and friend conversations, these kids become the "chosen ones" as the next generation of Elder players. They are pinpointed as early as 4th and 5th grade. These are the kids that get the attention. All of this is fine...they are the best kids AT THAT TIME. But remember, these are the westside redshirts...they got a year on everyone in 5th and 6th grade, which makes a huge difference.

Fast forward to 7th and 8th grade...these are the kids that make the select teams again. There is RARELY any turnover once these kids are pinpointed. They learn Elder's system, and plays, and strategies. They are targeted for the next generation of Elder athlete.

9th grade comes...they are still young enough to somewhat have an edge in sports, bu the gap is closing. The other schools are playing their best on JV, and most Elder freshman teams are super successful. Why? Because the chosen ones are experiencing their last year of dominance. Kids that have caught up are playing up...and the Elder kids still have that size and age advantage as freshman.

But then something changes...this thing called puberty hits. And all of a sudden, these chosen ones aren't so chosen anymore. They're not dominating anymore. Because they were so much older, they peaked in 8th and 9th grade. That 6 foot kid in 7th grade is still 6 foot as a 10th grader.

So, it's time to make some changes right? Oh no...that kid "knows the system", and is "loved by the coaches". Who once was dominant is now "a gamer"..."plays like an Elder kid". And all of these kids sitting on the sideline KNOW that there are 4-5 kids that have passed this kid up...yet this kid still plays, sometimes even starts. The kids parents are friends with coaches, and friends of the program, or their big brother was an Elder stud...that kid stays. He "bleeds purple".

Then what happens...those 4-5 other kids and their parents start saying "WTF is going on here". It's obvious who the better player is. Those kids and parents become "attitude problems" and they have "sour grapes". Or worse...those kids with tremendous upside and potential are ignored as 9th and 10th graders. They've quit the team because they see the writing on the wall. They're labeled as "quitters", even though they've been given a raw deal from the start.

The same kids identified in 5th and 6th grade are the same kids that, most of the time, we see as starters on varsity, in multiple sports. That's FANTASTIC if Elder is winning titles. Problem is, for 10 years, they've won nothing. There's zero reason for kids to be identified and developed so early if it's not providing the returns that these select programs should be providing. I would argue that it's had THE DIRECT OPPOSITE EFFECT on Elder sports.

What should a fertile development ground for MANY kids has turned into a political machine for a FEW kids...and the results have been disastrous.

Elder baseball, basketball, and football, in the past year, have all been super mediocre. There are kids already pinpointed and guaranteed for football, basketball, and baseball for the next season. That's a fact. If you're team is .500, which most of them were close to, there is zero reason to not open up spots to other kids that have no doubtedly passed up kids that produced .500 seasons.

Take basketball...there are some obvious kids that should be on the team (Harp, Marsh, O'Brien). They went .500. You can't tell me you can't find 9 other players in the school that would also get them to .500 next year. Yet there are likely 7-8 other kids that are pretty much guarantees to make the team. That's not right.

I agree that the feeder school talent is now not good enough to get them state, or even regional titles. In a situation where they are already hurting for enrollment, it does them ZERO good to limit the pool of athletes THAT ARE ALREADY THERE, but that is what's happening. If they're not going to play the recruiting game, then they have to do a much better job of evaluating and developing more kids than just those that shine in grade school.

Why? Because of those 8 kids currently at Visi...1-2 will go to X. 2-3 are done growing...they've peaked. Just take a look at their parents....there's no 6'8' guys in the mix. In 2-3 years, they're average joe elder.

For the 100th time....I am not calling out any kid whatsoever. I think the kids that they are focused on are the best kids...but they are ignoring the other 90%...and that is a HUGE mistake. They are ignoring most of their talent pool, because those kids weren't superstars in grade school. If there is one paragraph to pay attention to in this long rambling, this hits my point the most.

BROADEN their development to the grade studs AND the kids that show the potential to be great, but may not get their until 11th grade. Stop ignoring them...stop putting the grade school studs and legacy names on a pedestal.
Good Lord, this post is riddled with inconsistencies. You can't say the Feeders are low on talent, then argue Elder's not paying enough attention to feeder kids. You spend so much time on this site, but have no clue what you're talking about. Sad.

Last edited by Descartes; 08-13-17 at 03:41 AM.
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  #140  
Old 08-13-17, 09:03 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
The last class that was a complete bust was '12, made up mostly of your Victory kids.
Your?? This is true though, very high hopes for that class and we all know how that turned out.
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  #141  
Old 08-13-17, 09:39 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Everyone wants me to point out certain kids...my point is there is no way to pinpoint the kids who might turn out to be great because they have been ignored, and all of the focus have been on the grade school stars. When those grade school "stars" don't pan out, or have peaked way too early, that's a probelm for Elder if they are putting so much emphasis on them. It's showing in the results.

It has also been happening long enough now that if a family realizes early they are not part of that selected crowd, then their kid has very little chance of playing the sport he likes at Elder, so they are either giving up on their sport way too early (before they even really develop or hit puberty), or even worse, choosing a different school where they feel that actually might get a fair shot.

Stop making it out to be a "sour grapes" issue. I have heard more and more people with younger kids say that this issue could keep their son from going to Elder.

All I'm saying is to broaden the talent pool with these kids when they're younger. If they're not going to be aggressive with marketing to kids outside of the feeders, or play the recruiting games, they have to develop their own. I'm not sure why everyone finds this logic so controversial.

So yeah...when I hear Visitation is playing their studs both ways (on a team with over 40 kids), and no one else gets a shot...it bothers me. Because there are 35 others players on that team that have been written off. And because they know the same thing will happen at Elder, they might not send their sons there. I know those kids are the best kids...now...doesn't mean squat in 3-4 years playing against varsity young men.

Last edited by trey2k; 08-13-17 at 09:54 AM.
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  #142  
Old 08-13-17, 09:51 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Everyone wants me to point out certain kids...my point is there is no way to pinpoint the kids who might turn out to be great because they have been ignored, and all of the focus have been on the grade school stars. When those grade school "stars" don't pan out, or have peaked way too early, that's a probelm for Elder if they are putting so much emphasis on them. It's showing in the results.

It has also been happening long enough now that if a family realizes early they are not part of that selected crowd, then their kid has very little chance of playing the sport he likes at Elder, so they are either giving up on their sport way too early (before they even really develop or hit puberty), or even worse, choosing a different school where they feel that actually might get a fair shot.

Stop making it out to be a "sour grapes" issue. I have heard more and more people with younger kids say that this issue could keep their son from going to Elder.
I must have missed the Uran kid sitting on the bench at Visi bc he wasn't connected and didn't even attend Visi. That's right, it didn't happen bc he was one of their best athletes. Talent always triumphs, politics only come into play when the difference is marginal.
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  #143  
Old 08-13-17, 09:58 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
I must have missed the Uran kid sitting on the bench at Visi bc he wasn't connected and didn't even attend Visi. That's right, it didn't happen bc he was one of their best athletes. Talent always triumphs, politics only come into play when the difference is marginal.
You honestly don't have a brain. Once again, your comprehension skills are lacking. What part of all of this do you not understand?

I have ZERO issue with the best kids playing. I have a major issue when those same kids that were playing on the select teams in 5th and 6th grade are still playing as Juniors and Seniors, and the teams have been VERY mediocre. If those teams are winning regional and state titles...FINE...I have no issue. But you can't tell me there aren't other kids that never get a chance that can play .500 ball too.
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  #144  
Old 08-13-17, 09:59 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post

So yeah...when I hear Visitation is playing their studs both ways (on a team with over 40 kids), and no one else gets a shot...it bothers me. Because there are 35 others players on that team that have been written off. And because they know the same thing will happen at Elder, they might not send their sons there. I know those kids are the best kids...now...doesn't mean squat in 3-4 years playing against varsity young men.
The reason those kids play both ways is bc they're much better than the other kids on the team. Elder/Bucks Fan is just a butthurt parent who thinks everyone should get PT. The fact is, if a kid is an avg 8th Grader, he'll be a below avg HS player.
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  #145  
Old 08-13-17, 10:04 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
You honestly don't have a brain. Once again, your comprehension skills are lacking. What part of all of this do you not understand?
I don't understand why you continue to post despite being proven wrong at every turn. You keep saying only a select few kids with the right name get to play, and I just gave you a concrete example that disproves your argument.
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  #146  
Old 08-13-17, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
The reason those kids play both ways is bc they're much better than the other kids on the team. Elder/Bucks Fan is just a butthurt parent who thinks everyone should get PT. The fact is, if a kid is an avg 8th Grader, he'll be a below avg HS player.
If these kids are so great...why isn't it producing results at Elder?

If these kids are so damn good, we can pretty much walk to the state title game in 3 years?

Everyone else has realized the reason for their dominance. Yes, they are good players...but they are not going to dominate like that in high school, and that has played out over the last 20 years. The walk into their spot at Elder, keep it for 4 years, and play .500 ball with no hardware.

Get used to it.
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  #147  
Old 08-13-17, 10:06 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
I don't understand why you continue to post despite being proven wrong at every turn. You keep saying only a select few kids with the right name get to play, and I just gave you a concrete example that disproves your argument.
The proof smacks you right in the face in the results of the Elder sports program.
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  #148  
Old 08-13-17, 10:08 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
I don't understand why you continue to post despite being proven wrong at every turn. You keep saying only a select few kids with the right name get to play, and I just gave you a concrete example that disproves your argument.
My contention is they pinpoint kids very early, ignore everyone else, and ride those same kids until they are Seniors...what part of that have you proven wrong?

You may think you have proven something based on what you think I am saying...but you haven't proven anything as it relates to my one and only point.
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  #149  
Old 08-13-17, 10:10 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
The proof smacks you right in the face in the results of the Elder sports program.
The proof is they don't have enough true athletes. The kids that would make a difference, likely do not play for the feeders.
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  #150  
Old 08-13-17, 10:12 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
The reason those kids play both ways is bc they're much better than the other kids on the team. Elder/Bucks Fan is just a butthurt parent who thinks everyone should get PT. The fact is, if a kid is an avg 8th Grader, he'll be a below avg HS player.
FOR THE 845th MILLIONTH TIME....I know they are the best players. Trust me, we've been hearing about it for 8 years now. But when puberty hits, and all the other kids actually start to develop, 6 of these 8 will end up being just like everyone else, or passed up by some. But they will keep their spot, and the success of the team will suffer because of it.

It has happened with the Junior class. And it will continue to happen with all of the other years Elder puts all their eggs in kids that are westside redshirts that dominate being older and developing quicker.
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