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  #121  
Old 07-27-17, 10:33 AM
McK93 McK93 is offline
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Originally Posted by bedevil View Post
And, yet the Cavs have won a championship under Gilbert's toxic ownership. I don't get the assigning blame to Gilbert. Yes, he has had some surreal moments as the owner, but he has also stepped up and paid an exorbitant amount of luxury tax because he bought in to the "win now" mentality. I get a good laugh over some of these folks who suddenly are concerned about the post-LeBron era, whenever that happens. Seriously? The whole franchise is geared to winning while James is still James. They traded away future assets to bolster the roster, and some of those decisions were an over-reach to mollify James. Some of that has to fall to Griffin.

I don't think it was Gilbert's ownership that made Irving seek a change of address. In my opinion, I think Irving comes off as a spoiled brat with a short-sighted perspective of what it means for a team to be "his". Where is he going to go and automatically make that team a contender? Maybe the larger question is, does he care if that team is a contender as long as he's the recognized leader?


I'm no Gilbert apologist but he is the only owner in Cleveland history to spend the money necessary to win. The word was Griffin wanted 7-8 million a year to be the GM. I would have told him no too.
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  #122  
Old 07-27-17, 10:37 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
Yes, so that's what I mean. LeBron wanted Love and didn't want Wiggins, but the Cavs couldn't come out and just say that on the off chance they weren't able to work out a deal for Love and therefore had to keep him.

I agree that Kyrie is a good young player and there is definitely a market for him, but the Cavs brass think they're going to gut someone in a trade for him. That's simply not going to happen. If teams were willing to sell the farm to Cleveland a trade would have been made already.
Ah, gotcha. Misunderstood what you meant.

And yeah, I agree. They aren't going to fleece anyone in trades. But that doesn't mean they don't have leverage. They can still get a very good haul for him. Better than what Indy got for PG and Sac got for Boogie.
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  #123  
Old 07-27-17, 10:39 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by McK93 View Post


I'm no Gilbert apologist but he is the only owner in Cleveland history to spend the money necessary to win. The word was Griffin wanted 7-8 million a year to be the GM. I would have told him no too.
Um hi, the Indians the in the last couple years would like a word with you. And just because he spends money doesn't mean he's a good owner. Fact of the matter is the only reason the Cavs have a championship is because LeBron was born 45 minutes away in Akron. Not because of Dan Gilbert.
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  #124  
Old 07-27-17, 10:44 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by bedevil View Post
And, yet the Cavs have won a championship under Gilbert's toxic ownership. I don't get the assigning blame to Gilbert. Yes, he has had some surreal moments as the owner, but he has also stepped up and paid an exorbitant amount of luxury tax because he bought in to the "win now" mentality. I get a good laugh over some of these folks who suddenly are concerned about the post-LeBron era, whenever that happens. Seriously? The whole franchise is geared to winning while James is still James. They traded away future assets to bolster the roster, and some of those decisions were an over-reach to mollify James. Some of that has to fall to Griffin.

I don't think it was Gilbert's ownership that made Irving seek a change of address. In my opinion, I think Irving comes off as a spoiled brat with a short-sighted perspective of what it means for a team to be "his". Where is he going to go and automatically make that team a contender? Maybe the larger question is, does he care if that team is a contender as long as he's the recognized leader?
You call it a spoiled brat, others call it competitive drive. He's 25 and has a title as 2nd fiddle. It's not exactly out of the question to think he wants to be the leader of a team during his prime years. LeBron might not retire for another 5. And as long as LeBron is around, no matter what, it is his team in his city.

The fact the Gilbert continually underpays his FO members, his child like tantrum and letter to LeBron, the fact LeBron had to reach out to him to make amends all show he's a sh*t owner. Spending money doesn't make you a good owner. Look at Jim Buss and James Dolan for examples A and B.
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  #125  
Old 07-27-17, 10:58 AM
McK93 McK93 is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Um hi, the Indians the in the last couple years would like a word with you. And just because he spends money doesn't mean he's a good owner. Fact of the matter is the only reason the Cavs have a championship is because LeBron was born 45 minutes away in Akron. Not because of Dan Gilbert.
Sweet. He still put the pieces in place and paid the money to make it happen, that deserves credit no matter what you say. I mean the Nets owner spent a ton of cash too, so maybe knowing how to run a team like Gilbert has done is worth something. I get it you aren't going to give the guy credit, so this is the end for me.
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  #126  
Old 07-27-17, 11:21 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by McK93 View Post
Sweet. He still put the pieces in place and paid the money to make it happen, that deserves credit no matter what you say. I mean the Nets owner spent a ton of cash too, so maybe knowing how to run a team like Gilbert has done is worth something. I get it you aren't going to give the guy credit, so this is the end for me.
Sweet. Gilbert hired Danny Ferry in 2005. That is the only piece Gilbert put in place. Ferry hired Chris Grant. Grant hired David Griffin. Those three were the ones who put the pieces together. Gilbert doesn't run the team he just supplied the money, do you have any idea how sport franchises work? The GMs/President of Basketball Operations run the team. No, the only reason the Cavs are successful is because they sucked at the right time and got a top 5 all time talent who happened to grow up 45 minutes away. Gilbert deserves no credit because all he did was supply the money. He didn't build the team, he didn't convince LeBron to come back, he did do anything on the court.
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  #127  
Old 07-27-17, 11:23 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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ads, might be backing off my "no leverage" position. Apparently the Cavs FO can't even get Kyrie to pick up his phone.
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  #128  
Old 07-27-17, 11:45 AM
SLAGuy SLAGuy is offline
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Maybe Kyrie had a change of heart and is embarrassed by the situation he put himself in.
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  #129  
Old 07-27-17, 12:06 PM
McK93 McK93 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Sweet. Gilbert hired Danny Ferry in 2005. That is the only piece Gilbert put in place. Ferry hired Chris Grant. Grant hired David Griffin. Those three were the ones who put the pieces together. Gilbert doesn't run the team he just supplied the money, do you have any idea how sport franchises work? The GMs/President of Basketball Operations run the team. No, the only reason the Cavs are successful is because they sucked at the right time and got a top 5 all time talent who happened to grow up 45 minutes away. Gilbert deserves no credit because all he did was supply the money. He didn't build the team, he didn't convince LeBron to come back, he did do anything on the court.
Yeah you convinced me. I am apparently no match for someone with your knowledge. F that guy he's a bum. I mean I'm certain a billionaire business man would never have any input in his investment. That's how you make a billion you just take a hands off approach and hope for the best. Genius, I wish i would have thought of that.
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  #130  
Old 07-27-17, 12:15 PM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Use some common sense, man. If he had any basketball knowledge why wouldn't he make him self GM/President of Basketball Operations? Why would he delegate decisions on draftings, free agent signings and trades to someone else? I mean you answered your own damn question. He's a billionaire business man. He doesn't know jack about basketball other than it's profitable. That's why he bought into the business.
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  #131  
Old 07-27-17, 12:38 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Ah, gotcha. Misunderstood what you meant.

And yeah, I agree. They aren't going to fleece anyone in trades. But that doesn't mean they don't have leverage. They can still get a very good haul for him. Better than what Indy got for PG and Sac got for Boogie.
Agree there. Indy and Sac definitely panicked with those two moves. Though doesn't that show the market for a player like Irving?
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  #132  
Old 07-27-17, 12:42 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
ads, might be backing off my "no leverage" position. Apparently the Cavs FO can't even get Kyrie to pick up his phone.
If they don't move him can they just not play him? Will this turn into a holdout type deal like we see in the NFL?
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  #133  
Old 07-27-17, 02:37 PM
J.R. Swish J.R. Swish is offline
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They can choose not to play him but that would be stupid as they would be paying him and he is their 2nd best talent. KI could hold out and demand a trade but then he would not be getting paid so I highly doubt he does that. It could be a toxic situation if he is not dealt before camp, especially if there is friction between KI and Lebron.
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  #134  
Old 07-27-17, 03:08 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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Interesting factor to consider that I haven't seen get much press yet: Kyrie the brand is a lot bigger than Kyrie the player at the moment. KI is currently 5th overall in Jersey sales and 2nd overall in shoe sales. For a team toiling in mediocrity, he probably puts butts in the seats and generates buzz better than somebody like Cousins, Butler or George.
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  #135  
Old 07-27-17, 03:20 PM
J.R. Swish J.R. Swish is offline
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Warrior may be on to something. Ky-me does sell shoes and jerseys and will sell tickets too as he is an exciting offensive player. Teams like Denver, Phoenix would welcome him. Even the Knicks and Heat could use a boost in terms of an exciting player too excite their fan base. Maybe the Cavs get a team to give them enough assets for a trade that makes sense. Ky-me is not responding to Cavs calls and texts right now either so a trade seems likely.
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  #136  
Old 07-28-17, 05:39 PM
joesports joesports is offline
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This just goes to show the difference between GS and the Cavs ... GS play team ball, everyone sharing the ball and not caring who gets the credit ... the Cavs play hero ball and more worried about who gets the credit than caring about winning.
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  #137  
Old 07-28-17, 07:51 PM
SLAGuy SLAGuy is offline
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Golden State has appeared to be the villain throughout the last couple of years but now we are finding out they are the good guys. Its all team first with them. Not sure how many Cavs players you could say that about.
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  #138  
Old 07-28-17, 10:09 PM
tallmadge H2 dad tallmadge H2 dad is offline
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Originally Posted by joesports View Post
This just goes to show the difference between GS and the Cavs ... GS play team ball, everyone sharing the ball and not caring who gets the credit ... the Cavs play hero ball and more worried about who gets the credit than caring about winning.
Huh? The Cavs play hero ball?
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  #139  
Old 07-29-17, 10:12 PM
joesports joesports is offline
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Originally Posted by tallmadge H2 dad View Post
Huh? The Cavs play hero ball?
It is a term for when a team decides to forgo playing good team basketball and go one on one and take incredibly difficult shots to show what a "hero" they are ... sorry it is a term my friends and I continue to use ... we got it from our HS coach ... he used it all the time when he thought you were being a show off.
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  #140  
Old 07-29-17, 10:24 PM
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eastside_purple eastside_purple is offline
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Originally Posted by joesports View Post
It is a term for when a team decides to forgo playing good team basketball and go one on one and take incredibly difficult shots to show what a "hero" they are ... sorry it is a term my friends and I continue to use ... we got it from our HS coach ... he used it all the time when he thought you were being a show off.
Pretty standard term. Madge knows what you mean, he just doesn't think the Cavs play hero ball.
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  #141  
Old 07-30-17, 06:36 AM
tallmadge H2 dad tallmadge H2 dad is offline
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Originally Posted by joesports View Post
It is a term for when a team decides to forgo playing good team basketball and go one on one and take incredibly difficult shots to show what a "hero" they are ... sorry it is a term my friends and I continue to use ... we got it from our HS coach ... he used it all the time when he thought you were being a show off.
Houston plays hero ball. OKC plays hero ball. I think the Cavs are far from playing hero ball.
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  #142  
Old 07-30-17, 06:55 AM
joesports joesports is offline
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Originally Posted by tallmadge H2 dad View Post
Houston plays hero ball. OKC plays hero ball. I think the Cavs are far from playing hero ball.
I will agree they don't play hero ball the entire game ... just when Kyrie is on the floor without LeBron and any time they get a lead with less than 7 min or so left in the game ... it has cost them many games ... Game 3 in just one example.
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  #143  
Old 07-30-17, 09:09 PM
tallmadge H2 dad tallmadge H2 dad is offline
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Originally Posted by joesports View Post
I will agree they don't play hero ball the entire game ... just when Kyrie is on the floor without LeBron and any time they get a lead with less than 7 min or so left in the game ... it has cost them many games ... Game 3 in just one example.
Ok...I'll give you that
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  #144  
Old 07-31-17, 11:12 AM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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There's now a video with Kyrie laughing while Curry's mocking LeBron's workout videos at what appears to be a wedding. I think this is about at the point where the Cavs can't bring him back under any circumstance, even if just until December when recently signed free agents become available to trade.

Supposedly, there's a few standing offers on the board. PHX with Bledsoe + a 1st rounder (MIA '18?), and MIA with Dragic and Winslow. I'd have to believe if PHX were willing to part with Josh Jackson they'd have a deal done as soon as he's tradable, which should be later this week. That would check all the boxes the Cavs are looking for (vet, "blue chipper", first rounder). MIA has supposedly offered Dragic and Winslow. I don't think they have a tradable pick until 2020/21, depending on protections on the pick they owe the Suns. If the Cavs can't find a better deal between now and training camp, I'd probably take that trade if they threw in that 20/21 first rounder with top-3 protection. That's not as much as what most would want, but IMO it's far better than the toxic situation of bringing Irving to camp.
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  #145  
Old 07-31-17, 11:46 AM
WinstonSmith WinstonSmith is offline
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How dumb is Kyrie going to feel when he's on a shtty team for the rest of his career?
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  #146  
Old 07-31-17, 01:09 PM
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How dumb is Kyrie going to feel when he's on a shtty team for the rest of his career?
I don't think he will care as long as he is getting his and is 'the man' ... averaging 25 to 30 points and wins a season.
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  #147  
Old 08-01-17, 07:15 AM
tallmadge H2 dad tallmadge H2 dad is offline
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He will care. At some point in ones career, it's not about money or being the man, it's about winning. Kyrie can't even win with a top 5 team in the NBA without LeBron on the floor.
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  #148  
Old 08-01-17, 07:30 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by tallmadge H2 dad View Post
He will care. At some point in ones career, it's not about money or being the man, it's about winning. Kyrie can't even win with a top 5 team in the NBA without LeBron on the floor.
Well that's because without LeBron this is a middle of the road team in the East. The entire team is constructed around LeBron. The supporting cast does not play to Kyrie's strengths.
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  #149  
Old 08-01-17, 07:35 AM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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That's definitely true, and a valid concern if you are Irving and LeBron happens to leave.

The core part of the roster isn't bad by any means, it's just built entirely around LeBron's game and needs.
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  #150  
Old 08-01-17, 02:49 PM
joesports joesports is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Well that's because without LeBron this is a middle of the road team in the East. The entire team is constructed around LeBron. The supporting cast does not play to Kyrie's strengths.
What kind of player would play to his strengths? He is an ISO ball player ... ones that just stay out his way on offense or just stay on the defensive end of the court?
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