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  #121  
Old 08-13-17, 10:39 AM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
I fail to see how it's inappropriate to condemn all parties involved here. You have various racist groups (alt-right, white supremacists, neo-Nazis) on one side, and antifa, an antifascist organization that ironically behaves like fascists, on the other side. Antifa's only redeeming quality here is that they aren't the alt-right group.

Odds are the carnage of yesterday doesn't occur if antifa doesn't go to Charlottesville. It would have been a mostly peaceful protest of racists who would have shown themselves to the country to be the azzhats they are. Both deserve to be condemned, and shouldn't be tolerated.
You realize that "alt right" is a completely made up entity, right?
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  #122  
Old 08-13-17, 10:39 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
I fail to see how it's inappropriate to condemn all parties involved here. You have various racist groups (alt-right, white supremacists, neo-Nazis) on one side, and antifa, an antifascist organization that ironically behaves like fascists, on the other side. Antifa's only redeeming quality here is that they aren't the alt-right group.

Odds are the carnage of yesterday doesn't occur if antifa doesn't go to Charlottesville. It would have been a mostly peaceful protest of racists who would have shown themselves to the country to be the azzhats they are. Both deserve to be condemned, and shouldn't be tolerated.
Bingo.
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  #123  
Old 08-13-17, 10:40 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by Hammerdrill View Post
You realize that "alt right" is a completely made up entity, right?
Not really. The people in Cville are the Alt Right.
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  #124  
Old 08-13-17, 11:01 AM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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Alt-right is definitely not made up, but they're no where near the numbers the media pretends they are. I generally think of alt-right as being the guys with tiki torches as seen on Friday. The younger racist internet troll types from Reddit, 4Chan, etc., as well as the younger crowd at places like StormFront.
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  #125  
Old 08-13-17, 11:03 AM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I would advise Trump not to make the statement you suggest.
As myself and others have pointed out, there is no risk in alienating these white nationalist scum, as they make up a fraction of a fraction of a percent of his total voters.

Should he have to condemn them? No. Is it going to get awkward if he refuses to say the word "white nationalists" for the rest of his term? Yes.

To be clear, he absolutely should not accept any responsibility for what happened(because there is none to be had) and any follow up statement should reinforce the fact that violence is coming from all sides.

But I think a statement of essentially "if you're a racist and/or anti-semite and pretend like I speak for you, go fuc* yourself"(slightly nicer language maybe) would be fine.

He ran as and has largely governed as a guy who tells it like it is. I think he should continue to do the same.
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  #126  
Old 08-13-17, 11:11 AM
WestSideBomber WestSideBomber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
I fail to see how it's inappropriate to condemn all parties involved here. You have various racist groups (alt-right, white supremacists, neo-Nazis) on one side, and antifa, an antifascist organization that ironically behaves like fascists, on the other side. Antifa's only redeeming quality here is that they aren't the alt-right group.

Odds are the carnage of yesterday doesn't occur if antifa doesn't go to Charlottesville. It would have been a mostly peaceful protest of racists who would have shown themselves to the country to be the azzhats they are. Both deserve to be condemned, and shouldn't be tolerated.
Yes. I'm very much on team point and laugh at the idiots. Going out to meet them and stand up to them is a lose-lose. It's all the lowest common denominator.

Of course, that's all easy to say from several states away...
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  #127  
Old 08-13-17, 11:15 AM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
Alt-right is definitely not made up, but they're no where near the numbers the media pretends they are. I generally think of alt-right as being the guys with tiki torches as seen on Friday. The younger racist internet troll types from Reddit, 4Chan, etc., as well as the younger crowd at places like StormFront.
The alt right has done an excellent job, with the media's help, of portraying themselves as large and powerful.

Left wingers have compounded the issue by labeling anyone who is A.) conservative B.) anti establishment or C.) likes memes as alt right

That said, the actual alt-right, meaning people like Spencer, Taylor, and Vox Day are disgusting and are actively opposing constitutional conservatism.
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  #128  
Old 08-13-17, 11:34 AM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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Originally Posted by WestSideBomber View Post
Yes. I'm very much on team point and laugh at the idiots. Going out to meet them and stand up to them is a lose-lose. It's all the lowest common denominator.

Of course, that's all easy to say from several states away...
Easy to say from a distance, but IMO still easily the best method of marginalizing these people.
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  #129  
Old 08-13-17, 11:43 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
As myself and others have pointed out, there is no risk in alienating these white nationalist scum, as they make up a fraction of a fraction of a percent of his total voters.

Should he have to condemn them? No. Is it going to get awkward if he refuses to say the word "white nationalists" for the rest of his term? Yes.

To be clear, he absolutely should not accept any responsibility for what happened(because there is none to be had) and any follow up statement should reinforce the fact that violence is coming from all sides.

But I think a statement of essentially "if you're a racist and/or anti-semite and pretend like I speak for you, go fuc* yourself"(slightly nicer language maybe) would be fine.

He ran as and has largely governed as a guy who tells it like it is. I think he should continue to do the same.
Yeah, it's not like the White Nationalist are going to vote Democrat. At worse, they don't vote, and you lose .000000000001% of your contingent.
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  #130  
Old 08-13-17, 11:45 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
Easy to say from a distance, but IMO still easily the best method of marginalizing these people.
That's why free speech is so important. It's not to give a platform for these ideas to spread, but to expose the idiocy of the people speaking.
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  #131  
Old 08-13-17, 11:51 AM
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The Progressives know their ideology doesn't stand up to scrutiny, so shutting down free speech isn't an issue for them. They're simply using identity politics to further the goal of silencing any and all opposition.
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  #132  
Old 08-13-17, 12:05 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
The alt right has done an excellent job, with the media's help, of portraying themselves as large and powerful.

Left wingers have compounded the issue by labeling anyone who is A.) conservative B.) anti establishment or C.) likes memes as alt right

That said, the actual alt-right, meaning people like Spencer, Taylor, and Vox Day are disgusting and are actively opposing constitutional conservatism.
I think that without a doubt these goons have been enabled by the media and left-wingers broad stroke labeling Trump supporters as racists, bigots, white nationalists, etc. There's maybe a few hundred thousand of them, and that's probably being generous. The left has allowed them to weave a narrative that they represent more than a fringe minority, IMO.
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  #133  
Old 08-13-17, 12:13 PM
BlueJayFan BlueJayFan is offline
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
No BLM is worse.

The KKK is a tiny number of idiots that nobody listens to and they haven't killed anyone in decades,

Until any neo-Nazi actually does anything, they are fools in Halloween costumes.

BLM is responsible for people dying.
Yeah I forgot the KKK aren't responsible for anyone dying ever and neo-Nazis don't worship a man who is responsible for the deaths of 10+ million people.

I've seen a lot of people get upset about Colin Kaepernick kneeling during the anthem who are radio silent about this stuff or just chalk it up to "free speech." And that's a problem.
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  #134  
Old 08-13-17, 12:16 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by BlueJayFan View Post
Yeah I forgot the KKK aren't responsible for anyone dying ever and neo-Nazis don't worship a man who is responsible for the deaths of 10+ million people.

I've seen a lot of people get upset about Colin Kaepernick kneeling during the anthem who are radio silent about this stuff or just chalk it up to "free speech." And that's a problem.
Where did he say the KKK isn't responsible for anyone's deaths? Playing loose with the facts again I see.
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  #135  
Old 08-13-17, 12:19 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Originally Posted by BlueJayFan View Post
I've seen a lot of people get upset about Colin Kaepernick kneeling during the anthem who are radio silent about this stuff or just chalk it up to "free speech." And that's a problem.
That's not exactly an equivalent. The equivalent would be for people in the stands to throw bottles and rocks at Colin Kaepernick while he peacefully knelt during the National Anthem. Everyone on here would condemn idiots for throwing bottles at Kaepernick just as they are condemning the antifa and alt-right idiots for their physical violence against peaceful protesters.

It truly is a sad day for America when one of the founding principals of allowing peaceful demonstrations is being dismissed due to ideologies.
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  #136  
Old 08-13-17, 12:22 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Who classifies them? Personally, I would classify BLM as a hate group and I'm sure millions of other Americans would do the same.

As to the question, no, I would not stop these gatherings from happening. Free speech needs to be protected and I stand with the ACLU in their support of this gathering.
Well considering BLM started under Obama's watch I wouldn't expect them to get some formal classification as a hate group by either the DOJ or FBI (or whatever official entity does the classifying) while Obama was in office.
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  #137  
Old 08-13-17, 12:32 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is online now
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Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
Alt-right is definitely not made up, but they're no where near the numbers the media pretends they are. I generally think of alt-right as being the guys with tiki torches as seen on Friday. The younger racist internet troll types from Reddit, 4Chan, etc., as well as the younger crowd at places like StormFront.
Yeah, those people have always existed, that is nothing new. The term was created to scare people into not voting for Trump.
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  #138  
Old 08-13-17, 12:33 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Prison is not going to be fun for James...

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  #139  
Old 08-13-17, 12:35 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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And he has a Cincinnati connection!

http://www.wcpo.com/news/national/ch...dd-as-ohio-man
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  #140  
Old 08-13-17, 12:37 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
As myself and others have pointed out, there is no risk in alienating these white nationalist scum, as they make up a fraction of a fraction of a percent of his total voters.

Should he have to condemn them? No. Is it going to get awkward if he refuses to say the word "white nationalists" for the rest of his term? Yes.

To be clear, he absolutely should not accept any responsibility for what happened(because there is none to be had) and any follow up statement should reinforce the fact that violence is coming from all sides.

But I think a statement of essentially "if you're a racist and/or anti-semite and pretend like I speak for you, go fuc* yourself"(slightly nicer language maybe) would be fine.

He ran as and has largely governed as a guy who tells it like it is. I think he should continue to do the same.
I don't disagree with what you wrote here with the exception of the first sentence which is a poor characterization of what I posted. My argument wasn't that Trump should worry about alienating the tiny fraction of folks who make up the noxious white supremacist movement. Rather my point was that it is important for president Trump to be seen as even handed in condemning BOTH sides. Signalling out white nationalists for special condemnation risks pushing those folks who are not supremacist but who are frustrated by the way the racial discussion has been taking place in America into the arms of the white nationalists.

You seem awfully insistent that the President and others make some grandstanding statements that virtue signal the purity of their beliefs rather than rolling up their sleeves and getting down to the business of nipping in the bud this disturbing growth in violence on BOTH sides of the political spectrum.
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  #141  
Old 08-13-17, 12:39 PM
BlueJayFan BlueJayFan is offline
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Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
That's not exactly an equivalent. The equivalent would be for people in the stands to throw bottles and rocks at Colin Kaepernick while he peacefully knelt during the National Anthem. Everyone on here would condemn idiots for throwing bottles at Kaepernick just as they are condemning the antifa and alt-right idiots for their physical violence against peaceful protesters.

It truly is a sad day for America when one of the founding principals of allowing peaceful demonstrations is being dismissed due to ideologies.
There shouldn't be "peaceful demonstrations" by people who are waiving Nazi flags around Tens of millions didn't die in WWII for people to do that **** freely in 2017. Someone kneeling during the national anthem and someone waiving around a nazi flag while hurling discriminatory insults is not the same thing. One is vehemently worse than the other.
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  #142  
Old 08-13-17, 12:40 PM
BlueJayFan BlueJayFan is offline
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
I don't disagree with what you wrote here with the exception of the first sentence which is a poor characterization of what I posted. My argument wasn't that Trump should worry about alienating the tiny fraction of folks who make up the noxious white supremacist movement. Rather my point was that it is important for president Trump to be seen as even handed in condemning BOTH sides. Signalling out white nationalists for special condemnation risks pushing those folks who are not supremacist but who are frustrated by the way the racial discussion has been taking place in America into the arms of the white nationalists.

You seem awfully insistent that the President and others make some grandstanding statements that virtue signal the purity of their beliefs rather than rolling up their sleeves and getting down to the business of nipping in the bud this disturbing growth in violence on BOTH sides of the political spectrum.
If you're not a white supremacist you shouldn't be offended by Trump calling them out Those people are scum and have no place in society. Give me a break...
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  #143  
Old 08-13-17, 12:41 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is online now
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Originally Posted by BlueJayFan View Post
There shouldn't be "peaceful demonstrations" by people who are waiving Nazi flags around Tens of millions didn't die in WWII for people to do that **** freely in 2017. Someone kneeling during the national anthem and someone waiving around a nazi flag while hurling discriminatory insults is not the same thing.
Sorry BJF, but that isn't how a free society works. I know you would prefer to never be offended or upset about things, but as an adult, in a free society, people are going to do things you don't like.
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  #144  
Old 08-13-17, 12:44 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Originally Posted by BlueJayFan View Post
There shouldn't be "peaceful demonstrations" by people who are waiving Nazi flags around Tens of millions didn't die in WWII for people to do that **** freely in 2017.
That is actually precisely what they died for.

Many of these young men waving Nazi flags and saluting Hitler likely had grandparents and great grandparents die fighting the Nazis in Europe. And that is disgraceful to them and their ancestors. Just as it would be disgraceful for the rest of our ancestors who fought in EVERY Ameican War to rewrite the 1st amendment.
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  #145  
Old 08-13-17, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueJayFan View Post
There shouldn't be "peaceful demonstrations" by people who are waiving Nazi flags around
Wrong. The best way to make sure a protest fails is to ignore it. Protest is there to garner attention, Progressives/Antifa going to meet them, ready for violence fans the flames. The left is creating a self-fulfilling prophecy by giving them exactly what they want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueJayFan View Post
Tens of millions didn't die in WWII for people to do that **** freely in 2017.
Yes, they did. They fought to protect the free world. In the free world, we have freedom of speech, and freedom of speech is there to protect unpopular and incendiary ideas, not kind words or beliefs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueJayFan View Post
Someone kneeling during the national anthem and someone waiving around a nazi flag while hurling discriminatory insults is not the same thing. One is vehemently worse than the other.
Both are exhibitions of free speech and are equal in those terms.
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  #146  
Old 08-13-17, 12:45 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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Why stop at the Nazi flag? Why not include those waving around the hammer and sickle flag of the Soviet Union, also seen at these protests yesterday?

Idiots unfortunately have to be tolerated in a free society, as long as their idiocy is partaken is a peaceful manner. They can't be shut down just for saying ignorant or hateful things that we disagree with.
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  #147  
Old 08-13-17, 12:48 PM
Caleb Caleb is offline
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I never understood the protest thing no matter who you are or what group you identify with. I think it's stupid and to go and protest the protest is really stupid and nobody ever talks about that group. They get a free ride I guess. I've watched the news shows the last day and a half and the difference in how they cover events like this from a left and right perspective is disturbing to say the least.
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  #148  
Old 08-13-17, 12:50 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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Originally Posted by lotr10 View Post
You seem awfully insistent that the President and others make some grandstanding statements that virtue signal the purity of their beliefs rather than rolling up their sleeves and getting down to the business of nipping in the bud this disturbing growth in violence on BOTH sides of the political spectrum.
Condemning something and getting to work fixing the issue are not mutually exclusive. No idea why you would think they are.
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  #149  
Old 08-13-17, 12:57 PM
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Condemning both sides is what was needed. Trump did it right.
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  #150  
Old 08-13-17, 12:58 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
That said, the actual alt-right, meaning people like Spencer, Taylor, and Vox Day are disgusting and are actively opposing constitutional conservatism.
Painting with an awfully broad brush there NEO.

* Richard Spencer appears to be a classic white supremacist. In addition to being antisemitic, Spencer doesn't like Southern Europeans either. He definitely resides in the "blue eyes & blond hair" wing of the white supremacist movement. My take on the guy is that he's a punk and an intellectual light weight.

* Jarrod Taylor (I assume that's who you're talking about) is an interesting scholar. Some of his views are borderline white supremacist though he is careful to deny it but a lot of his views are more classically white nationalist. He favors segregation of the races but does not appear to be antisemitic. He's a well spoken man who spent considerable amounts of time in Japan and he speaks fluent Japanese. He is one of the foremost people arguing that the USA should be broken up into various "ethno states", including separate white, black & Hispanic "countries". I would compare Taylor to some of the leading Black intellectuals that can be found in the Black Panther Party and throughout African Studies departments in your typical University. In many ways he is the white mirror to these guys.

* Vox Day is an entertaining science fiction/political affairs author who likes to brag about his high IQ and the fact that he's of Native American ancestry. He is a self proclaimed member of the alt-right and has written several excellent books including "Social Justice Warriors Always Lie" a must read if you work in corporate America or the government. Vox Day is certainly controversial but he's not a racist by any stretch. Here's his website for those who want to see for themselves:

http://voxday.blogspot.com/

Sorry NEO but you can't lump these three guys together. It's intellectually dishonest.
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