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  #31  
Old 08-11-17, 12:22 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my2sense View Post
High school football as we know it will cease to exist in 15-20 years. ... Sad.
Maybe so. That quickly though?

Football is trying to rapidly change to make the game safer. It is safer now, and will be more so in a few years. Is that soon enough to save the game? I don't know, and the game will never be 100% safe.
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  #32  
Old 08-11-17, 01:58 PM
y2h y2h is offline
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Originally Posted by my2sense View Post
High school football as we know it will cease to exist in 15-20 years. College and pros may be able to hold on a little longer due to the $$ they produce. Look for Ohio to move to 6 man football first then eventually more of a flag football 7-on-7 format as football. The synergy of football as we know it is on the decline. Sad.


Sorry I just couldn't read that with a straight face. The demise of football has been predicted for decades. Soccer was supposed to overtake it 30 years ago. It isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
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  #33  
Old 08-11-17, 02:03 PM
y2h y2h is offline
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Originally Posted by Cali_Eagle View Post
I agree with the bulk of this post. I see football in High School and College following the same pattern as boxing has, where it is only going to be played by the economically disadvantaged and to be blunt, the desperate. Middle class parents of all races and backgrounds will start steering their kids into other sports and one day the NFL, if it is to survive (it will, its too popular AND a case can be made for allowing legal adults the freedom to take the risks if "the price is right"), will have start training their own players on a different path than the traditional middle school - high school - college - NFL path. With Pop Warner and other rec football in there for the youngest.

I too am amazed that ambulance chasers haven't descended on HS and College football (where the real money is) hard and fast. We have so many "AC" law firms just here in the Las Vegas area alone that it boggles the mind. Maybe they fear the very real possibility of physically violent reprisals by crazy fans for such lawsuits, IDK.

I think a lot of parents will vote with their feet and keep the ever ubiquitous "Johnny" steered toward other sports, golf, tennis, baseball, soccer.

I think banning headed balls in HS and College soccer makes a lot of that particular sports problem go away myself. The impact of heading a ball with a bare head cant be any good for the brain inside that head.
There is risk in any activity. Soccer has a significant concussion issue as well.

Keep the kids indoors and wrap them in bubblewrap!
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  #34  
Old 08-11-17, 03:40 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by Buck_98 View Post
Sort of like ordering a hot coffee at McDonalds, spilling it on yourself, then suing because it was too hot? That kind of voluntary activity??
Not at all. Nothing like that.

Do people buy coffee with the intent of spilling it on themselves? Do people buy coffee knowing that it will (not might, will) cause 2nd degree burns if left in contact with human skin?
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  #35  
Old 08-11-17, 03:45 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by y2h View Post
Soccer was supposed to overtake it (football) 30 years ago. It isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
"In the 1979 season, the Division I North American Soccer League (NASL) dubbed soccer "the sport of the 80s" to challenge other sports in the US and to bring attention to the growing popularity of the sport."

yawn
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  #36  
Old 08-11-17, 03:52 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by y2h View Post
There is risk in any activity. Soccer has a significant concussion issue as well.
Much more with females than males. And since females are so much smarter, maybe then can tolerate a few more ...

I'm sorry, what were we talking about?
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  #37  
Old 08-11-17, 09:13 PM
Steel Valley FB Steel Valley FB is offline
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I've been on here saying this for years. Sadly, he's right. As much as I love football...the only sport I truly love and follow closely, there's no way my son will play. If you disagree with what is being said about CTE, your love for football is clouding your judgement. It's your choice. Let your kids play, but understand it's at their own risk. Which I'm fine with, by the way. I will not disparage anyone who chooses football for their kids. I don't think it's a smart choice, but it's your right to make it if you think the benefits of football outweigh the risks of playing.
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  #38  
Old 08-11-17, 11:28 PM
Cali_Eagle Cali_Eagle is online now
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Originally Posted by chs1971 View Post
First, you don't "play" boxing.

You are playing word games here. Of course you don't "play" boxing. You know exactly what I meant unless you have an advanced case of CTE yourself.

Second, professional boxers have always been "economically disadvantaged and to be blunt, the desperate."

Yes they pretty much have. And football will follow that pattern eventually, even if that isn't the case now. The only way it won't is with a lot of changes to the nature of the game as it is played today.

Third, "I too am amazed" that anyone thinks high schools and colleges can be sued by players who are injured. People get hurt playing sports. Everybody but the shockingly ignorant knows that. Legally it is called "assumed risk." If you get hurt doing something that you know can hurt you, you do not get to blame someone else. It is not anyone else's fault. Don't believe me? Then why aren't lawyers already suing schools? Because they're not as smart as you and haven't figured it out yet? Trust me, that's not the reason.

Some day, some how, someone will come up with a creative solution and will file suit. Will they win? Who knows... maybe not, probably not even. But if someone ever does, more will follow.


Wait a minute, maybe I am looking at this completely the wrong way.

I am going to ride my bike later today, probably around 20 miles. If a squirrel runs across my path, I might have to brake suddenly. I could lose my balance, fall over, and hit my head on the ground. Yesss! I can sue!!!!

Should I sue the paving company because the asphalt is too hard?

Should I sue the bicycle company because they make bikes that can tip over?

Should I sue the county park system because they allow wild animals to roam freely instead of putting them all in cages as a matter of public safety?

Should I sue the helmet manufacturer? (I don't actually own or wear a bike helmet, but then again they didn't give me one for free either, and if they really cared about my safety they would do that.}

Maybe I should sue the state of Ohio because there is no law that compels to wear a bike helmet like there is a law that makes me wear a seatbelt.

If I fall off my bike who do I get to sue?

You can sue anyone you want. Winning is another story, but inane and frivolous lawsuits are filed every day. Sometimes the filers even win, despite merits to their cases that would make a logical person shake his head.
I think CTE and head trauma is a very real threat to people, especially people that play HS, College and Pro football. I think parents and mothers will strongly discourage "Johnny" from playing and will steer/encourage their sons to other sports over time. Eventually you will only see the whole sport resemble the boxing pattern, but it doesn't have to happen soon or right away. It could take years or even decades; like it took the anti smoking education campaign to really dent the smoking rate. Even that has a way to go, so is it with football too.

I love the game but totally understand those parents that don't want their kids playing it. And yes, a HS only football career probably doesn't leave most players with CTE related ailments in their later years. Probably that's more common among people that played in the high speed and power NFL for at least awhile. But I don't blame anyone for not risking it. JMHO, YMMV.
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  #39  
Old 08-12-17, 01:31 PM
Cali_Eagle Cali_Eagle is online now
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Originally Posted by y2h View Post
There is risk in any activity.

Yes there is. And I believe people should have the freedom to take those risks if they want to. I don't believe in the Nanny State. I also believe if parents, moms, kids DON'T want to take the risks of football and decide to play a different sport, there is no shame in that either. That's what I believe is happening and I think it's a trend that will continue and grow in the years ahead.

Soccer has a significant concussion issue as well.

I think banning headed balls in HS and College soccer would alleviate a lot of that risk. Competition for balls in the air probably causes head to head contact and that could be changed by rule. (Ball must land on ground or be close (below head or chest height) before players can contest possession. )

Powers that be could try those rules and measure the concussion rate. Maybe it helps. Maybe it doesn't. Doesn't hurt to try.


Keep the kids indoors and wrap them in bubblewrap!

I know you are being tongue in cheek there. Parents and kids need to decide what level of injury risks they are comfortable with and decide what sports to play or not play. I don't have any issue with people choosing, or not choosing, to play football or soccer, as they are today.
. (Y2h quoted my post with these comments, when I am quoted I typically try to respond if it's warranted.)
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  #40  
Old 08-12-17, 01:52 PM
mountain view mountain view is offline
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In the JAMA Neurol. published online July 3 2017.doi:10.1001/jamaneurol.2017.137

the study was on 3,904 men who played football in Wisconsin, graduating in 1957 found that ther was no statistically or clinically significant harmful affect to the men who played compared to men who did not
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  #41  
Old 08-12-17, 01:54 PM
BIG ED BIG ED is offline
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Originally Posted by Sykotyk View Post
I just don't see hoards of ex-high school football players huddled in mental institutions, unable to speak, walk, etc., completely broken as people as these studies seem to claim. Any deviation from the mean is considered a negative. The cognitive deviation from normal in these studies is ridiculous as any OTHER cause is just excused as CTE. Angry or upset? CTE. Forgot where you parked? CTE. Suicidal? CTE. No other reason.

If you stop eating donuts, you will live three years longer. It's just three more years you want a donut.

In the game of life, at the end the house always wins.
I agree and there's much more risk with teens and distracted driving. Put the phones down!

All this crap about football being done in 5-10 years is just that...crap from chicken littles all over the country.
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  #42  
Old 08-12-17, 01:59 PM
Cali_Eagle Cali_Eagle is online now
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Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
I'm still all for taking away the helmets and pads. See what happens
I saw a documentary once about a State Prison and it had a football league for the prisoners that used no protective equipment. They called their game Rough Touch and the players could tackle using the wrap up method around the torso or legs, or could push a player down (hard in the film in terms of impact) using 2 open hands.

No one was spearing or using their heads in any physical way to tackle, because to do so would have been to give themselves a concussion. (Plus it was against the rules, but hardly had to be.)

The game was fast and violent as played by the prisoners.

Also, in the "old days" (60's and 70's) when offensive linemen couldn't use their hands, they used to be depicted on football cards with their fists touching and their elbows out so that both arms combined to form a "bar" of sorts. We can easily change rules back to that. And take away defensive lineman's ability to use their hands as well. Put a halo on jersies surrounding the head and neck (like the jersies the 1967 Steelers wore, if anyone has ever seen old NFL Films. They had a yellow field around the neck on the black jersies.) no contact allowed within the halo.

If people have to have "protective" equipment, make the helmets and pads all light leather (with some sort of face guard, which mainly debuted in the 50's) like they were pre-1947 until the post war advent of all sorts of plastic goods (including all sorts of football pads and especially helmets.) This would minimize or even eliminate the use of helmet as tackling weapon (Doug Plank, Van Green, are two I recall from the NFL that were big hitters with the helmet.)

What some schools or the OHSAA ought to do is arrange some games with these kinds of conditions and monitor them. Do these ideas help the concussion (or even other types of injuries) factor? Is the game still sufficiently entertaining? (I think it would be, but a trial would be needed.)

Just some ideas to possibly keep the game viable, and attempt to make it safer at the same time. If anyone else has any thoughts or suggestions, please feel free to add them.
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  #43  
Old 08-12-17, 02:08 PM
Cali_Eagle Cali_Eagle is online now
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Originally Posted by BIG ED View Post
I agree and there's much more risk with teens and distracted driving. Put the phones down!

All this crap about football being done in 5-10 years is just that...crap from chicken littles all over the country.
I don't think any driver should be allowed to talk on the phone in a moving vehicle. Bluetooth or not. I have noticed that when people are talking on the phone in a car, their attention wanders from the road in a way it simply doesn't when they are sipping coffee or drinking a Coke while driving.

I think what will happen with football is change. We have seen this process start and it will continue. changes and tweaks. The NFL is far too popular and there will always be people willing to play it for money, just as combat sports could never be abolished for the same reason. Always people willing to step up for the $$$$. Or, people that want to watch and will pay to do so.

The Charles Bronson movie "Hard Times" showed Depression era bare knuckle fighters in barns, warehouses etc with promoters cashing in, fighters making money and people betting with both hands. Great flick.

It's like one of the mob bosses said (Lucky Luciano?) "We make money by simply giving the people what they want and will get anyway." (paraphrase).

So will it be with the NFL and the NCAA is addicted to football money. They aren't going to stop any time soon either. (NCAA abolished boxing, but that was basically a non revenue sport. Once the Benjamins take center stage, everything is different.)
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  #44  
Old 08-12-17, 02:13 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by mountain view View Post
In the JAMA Neurol. published online July 3 2017.doi:10.1001/jamaneurol.2017.137

the study was on 3,904 men who played football in Wisconsin, graduating in 1957 found that ther was no statistically or clinically significant harmful affect to the men who played compared to men who did not
You can't post that, the "science is settled and overwhelming" . The article in OP is nothing more than hyperbole produced by and for those who want football to go away. Their reasoning is that it must be harmful, because it is sooo scary. It is the same mentality that has driven the climate alarmist. Man is bad, thus he must be ruining the planet. They will produce study after study to prove their point.
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  #45  
Old 08-12-17, 02:19 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by Cali_Eagle View Post
I think CTE and head trauma is a very real threat to people, especially people that play HS, College and Pro football. I think parents and mothers will strongly discourage "Johnny" from playing and will steer/encourage their sons to other sports over time. Eventually you will only see the whole sport resemble the boxing pattern, but it doesn't have to happen soon or right away. It could take years or even decades; like it took the anti smoking education campaign to really dent the smoking rate. Even that has a way to go, so is it with football too.

I love the game but totally understand those parents that don't want their kids playing it. And yes, a HS only football career probably doesn't leave most players with CTE related ailments in their later years. Probably that's more common among people that played in the high speed and power NFL for at least awhile. But I don't blame anyone for not risking it. JMHO, YMMV.
Yes, the percentage of people who will actually play in the NFL is minuscule. So to take studies from NFL guys and then say it is unsafe for anyone, is silly. But this is exactly what the fear mongers want.
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  #46  
Old 08-12-17, 02:42 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Originally Posted by mountain view View Post
In the JAMA Neurol. published online July 3 2017.doi:10.1001/jamaneurol.2017.137

the study was on 3,904 men who played football in Wisconsin, graduating in 1957 found that ther was no statistically or clinically significant harmful affect to the men who played compared to men who did not
Study sponsored by the University of Wisconsin Madison. Badgers. Football booster supporters. LOL.
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  #47  
Old 08-12-17, 08:47 PM
y2h y2h is offline
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Originally Posted by Steel Valley FB View Post
I've been on here saying this for years. Sadly, he's right. As much as I love football...the only sport I truly love and follow closely, there's no way my son will play. If you disagree with what is being said about CTE, your love for football is clouding your judgement. It's your choice. Let your kids play, but understand it's at their own risk. Which I'm fine with, by the way. I will not disparage anyone who chooses football for their kids. I don't think it's a smart choice, but it's your right to make it if you think the benefits of football outweigh the risks of playing.
You are an anti vaxxer too aren't you?
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  #48  
Old 08-13-17, 08:33 AM
ELK Strong ELK Strong is offline
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Originally Posted by cjb56 View Post
High school football is finished. We are seeing the beginning of the end. This brain injury data is just going to keep pouring out, and at some point lawyers are going to go wild with lawsuits...insurance rates will be sky high for schools, and that will be it. Football will move to some sort of AAU style system, where the brunt of the cost will be paid by parents and/or sponsors...save for some selected all star teams that will be sponsored by national shoe and equipment companies.
HS FB will be fine, but we will continue to see less kids playing. Numbers are way down in youth FB and many schools can't field Frosh and MS B teams. I don't see that trend changing & can see some very small High Schools drop the program due to low numbers.

The lawsuits won't happen unless gross negligence can be shown (or lawyers would have already sued).

I wouldn't be surprised to see 7th grade become the first year for contact. This makes some sense to me. I am not convinced there is much benefit to tackling in youth football.

AAU - not sure. You would likely need a Nike or Under Armour set up a national AAU program to see it go this direction. I can see more Bishop Gorman & IMG Academy programs popping up. I think you will also see more Wayne programs where kids move in from all over & continued dominance of the Catholics (all-star teams). HS FB is becoming less significant in CFB recruiting with the emergence of 1/2 day Prospect camps. Very little recruiting is now taking place at a HS FB game.

Last edited by ELK Strong; 08-13-17 at 08:44 AM.
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  #49  
Old 08-13-17, 08:37 AM
King Arthur King Arthur is offline
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Trump'a fault
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  #50  
Old 08-13-17, 10:39 AM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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People today act like football players and parents of the 60's and 70's did not know the risk of concussions back than, most everyone knew a concussion was not a good thing but it was a risk kids and parents were willing to live with. Just a different generation with a totally different mind set.
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  #51  
Old 08-13-17, 12:06 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by y2h View Post
There is risk in any activity. Soccer has a significant concussion issue as well.
I keep seeing these references to the concussion risks in other sports like soccer, hockey, lacrosse, baseball, etc. However I'm not sure I have seen the data to support the claim that concussions are a problem on the same scale in those sports as we know they are in football.
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  #52  
Old 08-13-17, 12:10 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
People today act like football players and parents of the 60's and 70's did not know the risk of concussions back than, most everyone knew a concussion was not a good thing but it was a risk kids and parents were willing to live with. Just a different generation with a totally different mind set.
I think this is understating how much more we know about concussions today than we did in the past. As someone else said, oftentimes in the past an athlete would have a concussion, but coaches or parents would brush it off as having their "bell rung" and send the player back onto the field, court, or ice without any treatment or consideration of symptoms and further risks.
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  #53  
Old 08-13-17, 12:35 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
I think this is understating how much more we know about concussions today than we did in the past. As someone else said, oftentimes in the past an athlete would have a concussion, but coaches or parents would brush it off as having their "bell rung" and send the player back onto the field, court, or ice without any treatment or consideration of symptoms and further risks.
Yet, those generations still some how have lived fulfilling and productive lives, despite getting their bell rung and having been allowed to play.
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  #54  
Old 08-13-17, 03:02 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by Hammerdrill View Post
Yet, those generations still some how have lived fulfilling and productive lives, despite getting their bell rung and having been allowed to play.
Exactly, how many posters know someone who is having problems today because they suffered a concussion in H.S. 30 years ago.
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  #55  
Old 08-13-17, 03:05 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by Hammerdrill View Post
Yes, the percentage of people who will actually play in the NFL is minuscule. So to take studies from NFL guys and then say it is unsafe for anyone, is silly. But this is exactly what the fear mongers want.
Agree 100 %. The hitting in the NFL is at a totally different level than H.S.
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  #56  
Old 08-13-17, 03:34 PM
clarkgriswold clarkgriswold is offline
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Quite simply, the technology developed to address and prevent head trauma has been the catalyst for head trauma. The creation of more protective helmets made players feel like they were able to hit with their heads. You won't find significant CTE type trauma in players from earlier generations because they did not hit with their heads. If they did, they'd have all been out cold on the field given the low quality head protection they were wearing. You don't see head first tackling until the mid to late 70's, when advances are made in the helmets. Unfortunately, while the helmets decrease the substantial point of impact injuries, none of them are able to prevent the more yet long term problem inducing rapid deceleration caused by head impact.

I agree with those that predict the future demise of football. This isn't something like soccer taking over. This is a health issue that's going to keep parents from allowing their babies onto the field, and it is going to decay from the bottom (youth leagues) up. You're already starting to see it.
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  #57  
Old 08-13-17, 03:50 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
Exactly, how many posters know someone who is having problems today because they suffered a concussion in H.S. 30 years ago.
I played in the mid 80's. And by today's definition, I certainly was concussed at least a couple of times. Yet I somehow graduated from OSU a second time, at age 40. And did far better than when I was in my 20's. That of course is anecdotal evidence, but considering the current thought is that all are doomed who get concussed, I think it carries a lot of weight to dismiss that wrong headed (no pun intended) conclusion.
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  #58  
Old 08-13-17, 03:53 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by clarkgriswold View Post
Quite simply, the technology developed to address and prevent head trauma has been the catalyst for head trauma. The creation of more protective helmets made players feel like they were able to hit with their heads. You won't find significant CTE type trauma in players from earlier generations because they did not hit with their heads. If they did, they'd have all been out cold on the field given the low quality head protection they were wearing. You don't see head first tackling until the mid to late 70's, when advances are made in the helmets. Unfortunately, while the helmets decrease the substantial point of impact injuries, none of them are able to prevent the more yet long term problem inducing rapid deceleration caused by head impact.

I agree with those that predict the future demise of football. This isn't something like soccer taking over. This is a health issue that's going to keep parents from allowing their babies onto the field, and it is going to decay from the bottom (youth leagues) up. You're already starting to see it.
I agree about your babies statement but the rest is b.s. Watch NFL film of Dick Butkus and the 50's and 60's it was brutal. Guys were clothes lineing each other stepping on heads it was basically all-out war. The game back than was much more physical than today. I remember Kenny Anderson of the Bengals getting his face mask grabbed by Keith Gary of the Steelers and looking out of his ear hole and I don't even think a flag was thrown. Concussions have been happening since football began it's just previous generation's were willing to accept that risk to play the game.

Last edited by Stirred not Shaken; 08-13-17 at 04:17 PM.
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  #59  
Old 08-13-17, 03:56 PM
chs1971 chs1971 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
People today act like football players and parents of the 60's and 70's did not know the risk of concussions back than, most everyone knew a concussion was not a good thing but it was a risk kids and parents were willing to live with. Just a different generation with a totally different mind set.
It's more than that. The knowledge about the effects of repeated concussions is not that old.
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  #60  
Old 08-13-17, 03:59 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by clarkgriswold View Post
Quite simply, the technology developed to address and prevent head trauma has been the catalyst for head trauma. The creation of more protective helmets made players feel like they were able to hit with their heads. You won't find significant CTE type trauma in players from earlier generations because they did not hit with their heads. If they did, they'd have all been out cold on the field given the low quality head protection they were wearing. You don't see head first tackling until the mid to late 70's, when advances are made in the helmets. Unfortunately, while the helmets decrease the substantial point of impact injuries, none of them are able to prevent the more yet long term problem inducing rapid deceleration caused by head impact.

I agree with those that predict the future demise of football. This isn't something like soccer taking over. This is a health issue that's going to keep parents from allowing their babies onto the field, and it is going to decay from the bottom (youth leagues) up. You're already starting to see it.
They have been wearing plastic football helmets since the 50's, are you suggesting it took them 20 years to figure out they could hit people with their helmet?
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