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  #1  
Old 06-09-19, 08:53 AM
effit effit is offline
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Best race of the day

The D3 boys 1600 would get my nomination.

https://www.facebook.com/N8JYF/video...720467&sfns=mo

Last edited by effit; 06-25-19 at 04:38 AM..
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  #2  
Old 06-09-19, 11:17 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Would that be because the only one who ran a good/ smart race was the kid that won? Horrible strategies and tactics by everyone else. Is that what makes it the race of the day. The only race that was worse was the D1 boys 1600. Again, only the winner ran that one well.
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  #3  
Old 06-09-19, 11:59 AM
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Nice work by the Fort Loramie duo in that race. Not hard to see why the OP liked that one.

The DI Girls 800 gets my vote. Howell's sprint from 200m to 100m to go to take the lead was impressive, and then she was able to carry it all the way to the line.

Her 1600 wasn't too shabby either. She ran just hard enough to hold off all challenges and then took off at the end to seal the victory.

Last edited by Mr. Slippery; 06-09-19 at 12:10 PM..
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Old 06-09-19, 12:11 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Would that be because the only one who ran a good/ smart race was the kid that won? Horrible strategies and tactics by everyone else. Is that what makes it the race of the day. The only race that was worse was the D1 boys 1600. Again, only the winner ran that one well.
Doesnt the winner of every race run it well? Maybe the winner is just lucky that everyone ran poorly. I just think you think that every race tactic is bad.

I think that the race of the day was the freshman from Oakwood, Grace Hartman running wire to wire in the 3200 after losing the 1600 in the homestretch. Also her teammate coming from way back to almost catch her at he end
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Old 06-09-19, 05:15 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Would that be because the only one who ran a good/ smart race was the kid that won? Horrible strategies and tactics by everyone else. Is that what makes it the race of the day. The only race that was worse was the D1 boys 1600. Again, only the winner ran that one well.
I think you are over-generalizing with this statement. Just like on any team, in any race, there are many different abilities and goals. Some kids at the state meet their goal was just to make it. Most of the 17 and 18 qualifier kids and I would assume hundreds of other kids just want to be there and to race.

Then you have kids that would like to place. You have the kids that can place from 6-10 range and then the kids from the 10-14 range that try and place but fail. They fail for many reasons. Either training, they peaked at regional, ability, sickness, or a mismanaged race.

Realistically in any race or event, you only have 1-5 kids at best to win the state meet. And then within the group, you have the kids with different abilities. You have kids that can go out and be a front runner. Kids that can push the middle parts of the race and then you have the kicker. Within those groups, you could have 5 kids that think they are kickers. That is where the pace could slow and the traditionists/football meatheads think that tactical racing is not racing. They only believe that frontrunning is racing. Which is true for dual meets and most high school races. But championship races are seldom won from wire to wire.

Personally, I have had kids win the state meet and run a bad race. I have also had a kid get dead last in the state XC race, but ran the best race of his life. The winner you would think would be happy, but contrary, she was very mad at herself and the move she made to win. On the other hand, the kid that finished dead last at the state cross country meet ran the race of his life and ran a personal best. He was ecstatic after the race.

Personally, I enjoyed every race at the state meet from the field events, sprints, hurdles and distance. The distance races I watched all 3 divisions and thought that Olivia Howell was the star of the meet. She put her stamp on the state meet and showed she was the elite of the meet. But did she run well? That is not for me or you to know, I am sure only her and possibly the coach knows if she ran her best.

Personally, I couldn't figure out the D2 1600. I thought Trent Sayre should have won the race by a long shot with his time coming in. I am unsure what happened and why he let the Shelby kids dominate and dictate the pace the entire time. Was he injured? Or was he given bad advice by his coach? Or did he have his own race plan? Or did he just run bad that day? No one will ever know?

The D1 1600 for girls went as expected with Bush and Howell pushing each other and Olive outkicking her for her 3rd title.

The D1 boys 1600 was the tightest of any race I have ever seen the last 25 years coming in. No favorite and with 18 boys within 5 seconds of each other.
No one wanted to make a mistake and push the pace. So it was tactical and many kids ran a PR. But did they run a bad race if they finished 11th? I don't think so. Maybe that was the best of their ability on that day. Riley Buchholz that won had a tremendous kick and no one could cover that. He also won the Mid East Meet yesterday in the same strategy. But the kid that was 3rd, also thought he had an amazing kick- Nathan Moore- but he had no idea the other guy was that much better. Did he run a bad race? I am unsure what his goal was before the race. Maybe Nathan's goal was top 3. And he went home happy.

My personal favorite boys' race was the D1 boys 800. Aman Thornton ran a gutsy and all-out race to win that in a tremendous time. Runner-up Elliot Cook, also the fastest returner in 1600, should be the premier distance runner next year in track if he returns healthy and 100%.
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  #6  
Old 06-09-19, 11:02 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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I had a blast watching the state meet myself. I dare say that after this meet, this has gotta be the first time in history a Coventry athlete can be a favorite to win any event in a state championship track meet. Damian Jackson, for the 110 hurdles, was the highest placed athlete who does not graduate. Now that doesn't necessarily mean he will be the true favorite; a lot can happen in a year. Im just saying, that based on how he placed in the state championship, he has won the right to be the favorite for now, unless until he loses a race next spring, or we get d1'd (which I think at 285 boys, we're safe).

As for the rest of the team, it has been an interesting season, with plenty of ups and downs. But we got 4 athletes to state, including 1 girl. We got two all ohios at at the state championship. Ill take it.

Last edited by CoventryTrackXCguy; 06-09-19 at 11:21 PM..
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Old 06-10-19, 02:15 PM
madman madman is offline
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We all value things differently and that includes race outcomes.

Some place highest value on place, some place it on time, and others place it on executing a race plan to the best of their ability.

We don't control who else is in the race and we don't control the conditions, so I personally think valuing only place or time is foolish and isn't healthy.

I am a firm believer that every athlete's career is their own canvas. How they decide to paint that canvas is up to them. As a coach it is not for me to judge whether that painting is beautiful or done correctly. It is my job to educate and train each athlete to help them achieve their goals.

Is it possible for an athlete to make a mess of their canvas? Sure, but that has to be judged by what they were trying to accomplish and how they intended to do it.

We do a disservice to all developing athletes when we pass ignorant judgement on their performances when we don't know they context in which they occurred.
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Old 06-10-19, 03:48 PM
effit effit is offline
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FWIW - the winnerís goal was to podium as he finished last in the 3200 last year. And only had the 11th fasted time coming in. Being a senior, after 3.5 laps, he decided to give it everything he had. I think he even surprised himself when he found out he was the first one to cross.
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  #9  
Old 06-10-19, 05:58 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Would that be because the only one who ran a good/ smart race was the kid that won? Horrible strategies and tactics by everyone else. Is that what makes it the race of the day. The only race that was worse was the D1 boys 1600. Again, only the winner ran that one well.


Psychodad, from my perspective there were several kids in that race that ran well, exceeded their expected places and ran good times. In what way did the athletes other than the winner all fail to run well?
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Old 06-18-19, 06:56 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Originally Posted by mathking View Post
Psychodad, from my perspective there were several kids in that race that ran well, exceeded their expected places and ran good times. In what way did the athletes other than the winner all fail to run well?
I was going to go through it man per man, but the video is no longer in the link and hasn't been for a while.

The time was slow for a state championship race IMO. Someone can correct me, but this has to be one of the slowest times is 30 to 40 years or so to win it. My guess is that in a normal year the winning time might get you 5th. Good years it's probably more like 8th or 9th. It was a beautiful day, so temp or weather did not make for slow times. If you can win at 5:00, great, but you better win. Right?

The East Canton kid controlled the race well, but both he and the 3rd place kid from FL kicked too hard too soon. Can't go to that last gear that soon. The winner from FL picked up the pieces beautifully. Only 4 of the kids exceeded their seed times from the Regional and just barely. It's the state meet, that should be your best effort. Seed times should be expected to be slower than what you run at the state right?

I think 3 kids ran faster times at the Regional than the winning time and none of them were the winner.

A couple of kids made big moves then backed off of them. Nonsense IMO. Waste of energy.

I know this is harsh and they are just kids, but it was not a well run race by probably 14 out of 18 runners. Some of the kids only bettered their expected place because the 9-18 kids ran way below their seed/potential.

This is almost a textbook case for me of watching kids running and not racing.

Again, might be the slowest time since it was the 1600 m to win. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that. (I'm speculating just off of experience)

Were these the worst kids ever in the 1600? Are they not trained properly? Don't they race enough?

In D1, again, If you are going to crawl around for 3 laps and make it a sit and kick, you better be able to outkick everyone. If you can't, then you need to do something to take the better kickers legs out from under them. So many kids got themselves boxed in and gave themselves no chance.

I was impressed by the winners and thought the others should have done something else to break up the pack.

I thought the Shelby kids were impressive. They ran nearly flawlessly.
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  #11  
Old 06-19-19, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
I was going to go through it man per man, but the video is no longer in the link and hasn't been for a while.

The time was slow for a state championship race IMO. Someone can correct me, but this has to be one of the slowest times is 30 to 40 years or so to win it. My guess is that in a normal year the winning time might get you 5th. Good years it's probably more like 8th or 9th. It was a beautiful day, so temp or weather did not make for slow times. If you can win at 5:00, great, but you better win. Right?

The East Canton kid controlled the race well, but both he and the 3rd place kid from FL kicked too hard too soon. Can't go to that last gear that soon. The winner from FL picked up the pieces beautifully. Only 4 of the kids exceeded their seed times from the Regional and just barely. It's the state meet, that should be your best effort. Seed times should be expected to be slower than what you run at the state right?

I think 3 kids ran faster times at the Regional than the winning time and none of them were the winner.

A couple of kids made big moves then backed off of them. Nonsense IMO. Waste of energy.

I know this is harsh and they are just kids, but it was not a well run race by probably 14 out of 18 runners. Some of the kids only bettered their expected place because the 9-18 kids ran way below their seed/potential.

This is almost a textbook case for me of watching kids running and not racing.

Again, might be the slowest time since it was the 1600 m to win. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that. (I'm speculating just off of experience)

Were these the worst kids ever in the 1600? Are they not trained properly? Don't they race enough?

In D1, again, If you are going to crawl around for 3 laps and make it a sit and kick, you better be able to outkick everyone. If you can't, then you need to do something to take the better kickers legs out from under them. So many kids got themselves boxed in and gave themselves no chance.

I was impressed by the winners and thought the others should have done something else to break up the pack.

I thought the Shelby kids were impressive. They ran nearly flawlessly.
You know I couldn't resist looking it up.

Looking at DIII/Class A alone, the winning time of 4:23.88 is the slowest winning 1600/1 mile time since Bob Jonard of Caldwell ran 4:26.6 to win the 1977 Class A 1 mile run. 2000 came close with the winner running a 4:23.58, but it's been 42 years since this year's winner's time would've been good enough to win.

At the end of the day though, it was good enough to win the race he was trying to win on the morning of June 1, 2019.
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Old 06-19-19, 08:00 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Can't ever be critical of a race winner. Especially STATE CHAMP!

I'm interested to know why others thought this was a well run race by anyone other than the winner? Always good to know what others think and why they think it. Soph finishing 4th is pretty good, I'll give you that too.

Anyone that knows my stance on times, knows that I have time way down on my list of things that makes a race. However, just giving it the eye test led me to think this might have been historically slow. Mr. Slippery confirmed that it was. Time is a measuring stick. If this race was won in 4:14, my opinion of it would be different. Not as much a kid can do at that pace.
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Old 06-20-19, 08:45 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Can't ever be critical of a race winner. Especially STATE CHAMP!

I'm interested to know why others thought this was a well run race by anyone other than the winner? Always good to know what others think and why they think it. Soph finishing 4th is pretty good, I'll give you that too.

Anyone that knows my stance on times, knows that I have time way down on my list of things that makes a race. However, just giving it the eye test led me to think this might have been historically slow. Mr. Slippery confirmed that it was. Time is a measuring stick. If this race was won in 4:14, my opinion of it would be different. Not as much a kid can do at that pace.
In the boys D1 race I felt that Garner Wallace from Pick Central in particular had a very nice race (and a nice meet throwing in championships in the 4x800 and 4x400) with a PR and a 4th place. Andrew Schroff from Olentangy Orange ran a good race, was runner up and had a PR. I believe Max LeClair from Davidson also had a PR with his 5th place finish. I have seen all of them run multiple times, and for each of them I felt that this was a good race. Might one of them have placed higher with a different strategy? Maybe? Maybe not. All three of them had their highest ever state meet finish and personal best times. So I don't think it's fair to say they ran bad and/or dumb races.

I agree that the post season in track and field is about place, but only one person is going to win, and just because an athlete did not win does not mean that he or she ran a bad race. In fact I think that one of the best things about track and field is that it you can learn that it is quite possible to do your absolute best and still not win. We all obviously think time is important to some degree, otherwise why worry about whether this race (these races) were in fact historically slow?
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Old 06-20-19, 11:55 AM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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In the boys D1 race I felt that Garner Wallace from Pick Central in particular had a very nice race (and a nice meet throwing in championships in the 4x800 and 4x400) with a PR and a 4th place.
As a rising junior, he'll be someone to watch in the future. I believe he plays football in the fall. If he decided to switch to XC he would have a good chance of getting that 1600 time even lower.

On the subject of track athletes that play football - does anyone know what is going on with Darby's Malachi McGill? I was expecting some big things from him after he won the 800 title as a frosh. This past season he dabbled a bit in the throws but I don't know if he has approached his 400/800 performances from his 9th grade year.
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Old 06-20-19, 02:01 PM
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As a rising junior, he'll be someone to watch in the future. I believe he plays football in the fall. If he decided to switch to XC he would have a good chance of getting that 1600 time even lower.



On the subject of track athletes that play football - does anyone know what is going on with Darby's Malachi McGill? I was expecting some big things from him after he won the 800 title as a frosh. This past season he dabbled a bit in the throws but I don't know if he has approached his 400/800 performances from his 9th grade year.


McGill was disqualified for interference at the district meet. Our coaching staff felt the other athlete was actually at fault.


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Old 06-20-19, 03:13 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Why would running CC make you faster in the 1600. It's months apart. My CC season never carried all the way over to track.
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Old 06-20-19, 05:14 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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Why would running CC make you faster in the 1600. It's months apart. My CC season never carried all the way over to track.
Well, ive yet to meet the kid who runs consistent sub 17:30 5k's who cant break 4:40 in the 1600. And same vice versa.
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Old 06-21-19, 04:03 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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4:40 and 4:16 are many ability levels apart. 4:16 as a soph and 4th in the state is a talent that can keep playing football. We can get enough work in from December on. Heck, play basketball too and show up March ready to roll and I'm pretty sure we can come up with a plan to improve on that 4:16.

4:16 needs to give up football and run CC the same as all the other football players need to not go out for track and field to do work in the weight room and play capture the flag in the spring to be better in football in the Fall.

In fact, if you are going to sit and kick like they ran at the state meet in the 1600, I'll argue that the ability to be explosive and be able to run a fast 200 is more beneficial than mile repeats in CC. Football might be good for this kid running 400 to 1600. I'm guessing he's a very dynamic athlete. I think that football has some running in it.
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Old 06-21-19, 07:11 AM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Why would running CC make you faster in the 1600. It's months apart. My CC season never carried all the way over to track.
You're positing that running cross will not improve his ability and that he's just as well off playing football? Uhm, ok. Sounds reasonable to me.

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Heck, play basketball too and show up March ready to roll and I'm pretty sure we can come up with a plan to improve on that 4:16.
He does play basketball so maybe you're on to something here. And who's "we"? Are you going to consult? You've got the plan. Go for it.

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I think that football has some running in it.
Isn't football in the Portage Trail Conference a combination of jogging and walking? They actually run?
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Old 06-21-19, 08:45 AM
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I'm not sure they play football in the Portage Trail Conference. But if they did, I'm sure there would be running.

You are part of the "we". too.

I'm not sure even Howard would ask a kid that runs 4:16 to ditch football to run CC to improve the kids 1600. He would to improve the CC team, but only if the kid was not a contributor to the football team.

There is plenty of time in the track season to get the kid ready for a fast 1600. He sort of proves that.

I would cheer for him at every football, and basketball game and hope that he helped bring out more and more football and basketball players to track and field.

I think that strength, explosiveness, toughness, sprinting, dorsi flex and running mechanics are all very important things in the 1600. The 1600 is relatively short, so endurance is not as important as some of the sprinting type things you need. I don't think CC is necessarily critical to being successful in the 1600. I think some of the things that the kid does in football and basketball are just as if not more beneficial than CC.
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Old 06-21-19, 08:57 AM
Newton's Third Newton's Third is offline
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I believe Max LeClair from Davidson also had a PR with his 5th place finish.
One of the first things I noticed at the meet was LeClair placing after finishing 5th at regional.

I am not sure how people can criticize high school kids racing strategies. If the entire field is similar in talent whoever leads and pushes the pace is just setting up others. In a level field a frontrunner cannot just run away. To think someone out of the pack can just push the pace and change the outcome for themself is silly. The winner and the placers were the people who stayed tucked in the pack until late in the race.
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Old 06-21-19, 10:08 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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One of the first things I noticed at the meet was LeClair placing after finishing 5th at regional.

I am not sure how people can criticize high school kids racing strategies. If the entire field is similar in talent whoever leads and pushes the pace is just setting up others. In a level field a frontrunner cannot just run away. To think someone out of the pack can just push the pace and change the outcome for themself is silly. The winner and the placers were the people who stayed tucked in the pack until late in the race.
That is just not true. There were kids that got caught in the pack with nowhere to go and got eaten up and spit out of the back.

So, you can't run a strategy that changes the outcome? That is silly.

You can push the pace without setting up others.

There is no way that all 18 guys in that field were sit and kick runners where it was in their best interest to let it get to a 400 meter race. There had to be someone where it was better for them to take it out hard and take the kickers legs out from under them. I always tried to make my races a 1 or 2 person race. I was good at many changes of pace and I would not let people get comfortable. I ran with a guy that could run a 4:13 1600 but could not come close to 2:00 for 800. He just went from the gun. He would have had a lot to say about the pace if he was in that race. You don't just run around doing what everyone else does.
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Old 06-21-19, 11:01 AM
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There were kids that got caught in the pack with nowhere to go and got eaten up and spit out of the back.

You can push the pace without setting up others.

There is no way that all 18 guys in that field were sit and kick runners where it was in their best interest to let it get to a 400 meter race. There had to be someone where it was better for them to take it out hard and take the kickers legs out from under them. I always tried to make my races a 1 or 2 person race. I was good at many changes of pace and I would not let people get comfortable. I ran with a guy that could run a 4:13 1600 but could not come close to 2:00 for 800. He just went from the gun. He would have had a lot to say about the pace if he was in that race. You don't just run around doing what everyone else does.
I believe you are right if there is a disparity in abilities, but if all are similar in talent leading is what spits you out the back. I think history at the state meet shows far more early leaders finishing a straight-away behind than those falling from the pack. Those that barely made it there who are not near the frontrunners in talent fall into the category you mention that fall from the pack. I am speaking of those languishing far behind.

There are kids that would have benefitted a much faster pace, but only if it were pushed and led by another. The mental and physical energy needed to lead is too much when abilites are the same at the high school level.

If the person you are advocating pushing to take kickers legs away is not far more talented, he will get eaten alive by those who have been sitting. If your friend was running against other 4:13 guys who could run 1:52 he would be in trouble but if he were against 4:20 guys who could run 1:52 he might be okay with leading. The boys in the D1 1600 were all the equally talented on paper.

You don't mimic what others do and a push from 600 out or other strategies that have been practiced or prepared for are options. Pushing from the gun if all abilities are similar as this race seemed to be would only set up others. You can't ask a 4:15 guy to push at 4:08 pace early and think others will fall off and he can cruise to the finish in 2:20 with no one around.

This is just my opinion of watching the state meet for many years.
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Old 06-21-19, 12:41 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
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Well, I will concede, and say I suppose getting cross country/track guys into the wrestling team wouldn't be a bad idea in the slightest. Every wrestler ive seen, and we haven't had too many of those, but the ones that did come out for XC or track always excelled. Coventry's all ohio long jumper this year was also state runner up in wrestling.

Coventry's state qualifier in XC in 2015 was also a wrestler. He was the sort of guy, that in just talking to him the summer prior, I was ready to bet the house on him qualifying to state. I know, psychodad, you folks at woodridge weren't to fond of him. But his goal wasn't to be liked. His goal was to qualify, And he was prepared to do what ever it takes to get there. And his fighters spirit, his me versus the world mindset is what got him there. And im certain that that mindset is typical with someone who has wrestled his entire life.

Additionally, one of Coventry's XC seniors from last season came out for wrestling for the first time as a junior. Wasn't great at it, but it completely changed him. It made him much tougher, physically and especially mentally. I noticed he was putting up more of a fight, was actually racing his opponants instead of just trying to run fast times. Was showing up on race day ready to fight.

Anyway, rambling aside, point is, I want more guys on the XC and track team like the ones I just described. Im not in the business of dictating what athletes do in the offseason, they should do what ever they want. But if they all wished to do wrestling, It would benefit them all greatly. And I would stop at nothing to convince our wrestlers to come out for XC/track.

Last edited by CoventryTrackXCguy; 06-21-19 at 12:54 PM..
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Old 06-22-19, 10:04 AM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
I think that strength, explosiveness, toughness, sprinting, dorsi flex and running mechanics are all very important things in the 1600. The 1600 is relatively short, so endurance is not as important as some of the sprinting type things you need. I don't think CC is necessarily critical to being successful in the 1600. I think some of the things that the kid does in football and basketball are just as if not more beneficial than CC.
Your points are well-taken and appreciated. For the athlete in question you're more than likely spot-on. He's a dynamic athlete and is a 1600 runner that is more of a 400/800 type vs an athlete coming down from the 3200. He's a fairly large guy as well - in the context of a distance runner or compared to other distance runners. I believe he's in the 6'4" or 5" range and maybe 180ish pounds. Your arguments, how an athlete would benefit more from football and basketball, are probably more valid for this type of an athlete. For a more "wispy" and "distance-type" runner, I doubt that football would be much of a help. I'm stereotyping here but think of a prototypical distance runner - someone like Matt Scrape, Arjun Jha, or your own Micah Blair. I can't see football helping that type of an athlete. When I made my original comments I probably had the "prototypical" distance runner in mind.

I'm a firm believer that if an athlete can participate in multiple sports, that they should. The multiple demands of participating in different sports and activities is beneficial in athletic and physiological development. Urban Meyer, when he was coaching, preferred to recruit multi-sport athletes. He felt that participating in more than football made a better football player. Single sport specialization is not something that I like seeing.

I'm an avid soccer fan and keep a close pulse on the sport. A trend in that sport, I don't like seeing, is that some governing bodies (US Soccer's Developmental Academies for girls and boys) do not encourage athletes to participate in other sports. At the very least, it's not made easy for the athletes to participate in more than soccer. In general, it's been hard for the higher level players to play a spring sport due to playing high soccer in the fall and club soccer in the spring. (For those athletes in states that play high school soccer in the spring the primary club season would be in the fall). It is possible for the high level club player to participate in sports other than soccer but the USSDA is making it more difficult for players that participate in that league to do so. The USSDA does not even allow participation in high school soccer. Perhaps this push to specialize is why the attrition rate of those athletes is a bit higher than average. This is all supposed to improve the skill level of our soccer athletes but I'm not seeing it.

I've digressed too much from the topic here so I'll get off of my soap box......
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