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  #151  
Old 11-02-13, 12:10 AM
ECOLace ECOLace is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortcut View Post
Question concerning personal foul.
Play ends offensive player commits personal foul late hit after the whistle on this play. offense is awarded the first down before the penalty is to be assesed.
a) is that the correct call?
b) if it is the correct call do the down markers remain at the spot of the first down or are they moved back to the spot of the ball placement after the penalty is enforced?
In the game in question the penalty was assesed after the team was awarded the first down but then the down markers as well as the ball were moved back to the spot of the ball after the penalty was marked off.
Officials made the correct call.
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  #152  
Old 11-02-13, 12:20 AM
shortcut shortcut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECOLace View Post
Officials made the correct call.
if the call was correct to assess the penalty after the play( I agree) the why were the down markers moved back and not just the ball? if the play result was an incomplete pass not a first down the yard markers would not have moved when the penalty was assesed only the ball.
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  #153  
Old 11-02-13, 08:24 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortcut View Post
if the call was correct to assess the penalty after the play( I agree) the why were the down markers moved back and not just the ball? if the play result was an incomplete pass not a first down the yard markers would not have moved when the penalty was assesed only the ball.
The foul you describe "after the play" is a dead ball foul. The activity to that point stands (complete pass, incomplete pass, fumble, touchdown...etc) as the play, by definition and rule is over. Any foul committed by either team after the ball becomes dead and before the ball becomes ready for play is penalized from the succeeding spot (dead ball spot).

Two examples for you....

1) 2nd and 5 from A's 30yd line. A12's pass is complete to A84 and he is tackled at A's 45. After the play A65 hits B54 late drawing a flag..... Team A earned a new series of downs by advancing the ball to the 45. The dead ball foul is enforced from the succeeding spot (A's 45). A now has the ball 1st and 10 from their own 30 yard line.

2) 2nd and 5 from A's 30yd line. A12's pass to A84 falls incomplete at A's 45yd line. After the play, A65 hits B54 late drawing a flag........ Team A is penalized 15 yards from the dead ball spot (A's 30). Since this was a dead ball foul, the previous down stands (incomplete pass) and it now becomes 3rd down and 20 from A's 15yd line.

An easy way to think of dead ball penalty enforcement is that a team that earns a new series of downs will never start the series with the chains set in a more than 1st and 10 situation.
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  #154  
Old 11-02-13, 12:00 PM
hsfan60 hsfan60 is offline
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BB9, question to clarify a TD cal/non-call Hoban/walsh game

Hoban reciever caught a ball and appeared to maybe come down with one foot in the endzone, not clear on TV replay of game since camera was on opposite dide of field.

Is it not true that for a TD to be awared the official must see wheteher the foot was completely in and possession was achieved while foot was in bounds for a TD to be awared?
Also if the official is not absolutely sure, even if not in the best place to make the call they can't just Assume its a catch and aTD?

Thanks
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  #155  
Old 11-02-13, 12:24 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hsfan60 View Post
Hoban reciever caught a ball and appeared to maybe come down with one foot in the endzone, not clear on TV replay of game since camera was on opposite dide of field.

Is it not true that for a TD to be awared the official must see wheteher the foot was completely in and possession was achieved while foot was in bounds for a TD to be awared?
Also if the official is not absolutely sure, even if not in the best place to make the call they can't just Assume its a catch and aTD?

Thanks
You can never assume anything. You need to go with what you see and what information the other officials give you.

For example, we had a play in our game last night where we had to put the play together piece by piece because each official had some information that the other officials didn't have. Although it probably didn't look good at first we ended up getting the call right in the end.

I have not seen the Walsh-Hoban play but have heard some different accounts of it. I don't really want to comment much further on it.
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  #156  
Old 11-02-13, 12:33 PM
hsfan60 hsfan60 is offline
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Thanks BB9

Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
You can never assume anything. You need to go with what you see and what information the other officials give you.

For example, we had a play in our game last night where we had to put the play together piece by piece because each official had some information that the other officials didn't have. Although it probably didn't look good at first we ended up getting the call right in the end.

I have not seen the Walsh-Hoban play but have heard some different accounts of it. I don't really want to comment much further on it.
I did not want to out another official on the spot for someone elses call, since
hindsight is the best view!
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  #157  
Old 11-02-13, 12:35 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Appreciate that.
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  #158  
Old 11-02-13, 12:39 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Also, check out page 9 of the Gold Book:

http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/...dsHandbook.pdf

I don't know how much this situation applies. But you'll see #4 is in bounds if in doubt, but that's applied in terms of the clock with someone who had clear possession and is tackled close to the sideline. #15 probably applies a little bit better. "If in doubt it is NOT a TD or safety."
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  #159  
Old 11-02-13, 12:51 PM
hsfan60 hsfan60 is offline
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I guess that why it's called the Gold book!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
Also, check out page 9 of the Gold Book:

http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/...dsHandbook.pdf

I don't know how much this situation applies. But you'll see #4 is in bounds if in doubt, but that's applied in terms of the clock with someone who had clear possession and is tackled close to the sideline. #15 probably applies a little bit better. "If in doubt it is NOT a TD or safety."
Nice to see those guidelines in print, thanks

Last edited by hsfan60; 11-02-13 at 07:16 PM.
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  #160  
Old 11-02-13, 06:20 PM
WARRIORS_94 WARRIORS_94 is offline
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If a player is flagged for a 15 yard facemask penalty and then later flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct, can that player be ejected from the game?

Last edited by WARRIORS_94; 11-02-13 at 07:03 PM.
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  #161  
Old 11-02-13, 06:59 PM
RUN IT RUN IT is offline
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If the defensive end is aligned outside the "box", can the offensive tackle cut him on the snap?
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  #162  
Old 11-02-13, 07:20 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WARRIORS_94 View Post
If a player is flagged for a 15 yard facemask penalty and then later flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct, can that player be ejected from the game?
Only 2 unsportsmanlikes for ejection. He could be ejected depending what he did but it is not automatic.
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  #163  
Old 11-03-13, 07:47 PM
Fightingfor7crusader Fightingfor7crusader is offline
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Moeller vs Trinity.

Trinity false starts but throws the ball and a flag is thrown for PI against Moe.. why is there a penalty there against Moe when the play should already be dead? They called offsetting penalties and repeated down and distance.
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  #164  
Old 11-03-13, 07:52 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fightingfor7crusader View Post
Moeller vs Trinity.

Trinity false starts but throws the ball and a flag is thrown for PI against Moe.. why is there a penalty there against Moe when the play should already be dead? They called offsetting penalties and repeated down and distance.
Without seeing the play I'd assume that the play was not a false start, but instead an illegal formation. (same "traveling" signal for a FS and a IF)
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  #165  
Old 11-03-13, 08:10 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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There cannot be any blocking below the waist outside the free blocking zone or when the ball is not in the free blocking zone. Also, not my area of expertise so I'm sure someone else can elaborate better.
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  #166  
Old 11-03-13, 08:31 PM
hsfan60 hsfan60 is offline
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bb9, here's what I've seen, It,s not an exact measurement area, even though ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
There cannot be any blocking below the waist outside the free blocking zone or when the ball is not in the free blocking zone. Also, not my area of expertise so I'm sure someone else can elaborate better.
most consider it to be a 3 x 4 area either side of the center, splits vayr so it hard to measure?

section 2-17 of the rule book has the language. In general if you are a center, guard or tackle and can make initial contact below the waist within 1-2 steps, it's legal contact. If you are lined up as a TE next to the tackle then it gets called or not called depending?? Never seen the TE below the waist on initial contact called much, but it could be by definition.
IMHO
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  #167  
Old 11-03-13, 08:47 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Another important part of the rule is that the ball must still be in the zone as well. Gets real interesting in shotgun formations.

This is one reason I hate the umpire position.
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  #168  
Old 11-03-13, 10:03 PM
hsfan60 hsfan60 is offline
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Natives are restless tonight?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
Another important part of the rule is that the ball must still be in the zone as well. Gets real interesting in shotgun formations.

This is one reason I hate the umpire position.
More chances to get run over too?
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  #169  
Old 11-03-13, 10:07 PM
hsfan60 hsfan60 is offline
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So you expect an absolute answer without seeing the exact play?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RUN IT View Post
I KNOW THEY CANT. BUT, WHY DONT REFS HAVE THE GONADS TO CALL IT?
It is a gray area call if the DE is relatively alligned to the OT, any good official would have to see the film of the paly you are referring to in order top judge whether a call should have been made, get a grip!
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  #170  
Old 11-04-13, 06:56 PM
hsfan60 hsfan60 is offline
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The only grip needed is yours?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RUN IT View Post
GREY AREA... typical ref answer! The D-end is aligned outside of the tackle, Wide end, and still gets cut. D-end has his knee hurt! Please give the definition of the FREE BLOCKING ZONE! You need to get a GRIP
I am not an official, I guess you don't comprehend well?

In my opinion as a none official and BB 9 will correct me if I'm off base, If the tackle raised up from his stance and then cut the guy, it should have been a foul. If the tackle cut him as he came through the tackle area without coming up out of his stance and made contact as the DE came through his area with only 1-2 steps it should not be a foul. If the tackle had to go 3-5 steps outside to get the DE it probably is a foul.

Normally if a coach sees that in film prior to the game the ask the officials to watch for that. It is probably hard for the Umpire to see it but sometimes the referee will call it if it's in front of his vision on the play, probably one of the sidejudges
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  #171  
Old 11-05-13, 08:05 PM
JElder JElder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southwest Guy View Post
What is the proper disciplinary action if a coach continually walks to mid field every time he disagrees with a call ? There is a pretty good coach in Cincinnati that makes a habit of this with little to no repercussion.

I've seen sideline warning frequently which makes sense but why do certain individuals get so much rope when disprespecting the officials ? Should a flag be thrown and how bad before an ejection ?
Ramsey (who you are talking about ) has been flagged twice in the last 3 games for that tactic.
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  #172  
Old 11-05-13, 08:06 PM
hsfan60 hsfan60 is offline
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Typical response from someone who has a beef

Quote:
Originally Posted by RUN IT View Post
Sorry... I thought this was "Ask the Ref" Not ask Joe Blow! My BAD!
and doesn't just state what it is up front in your initial post, you obviously did not want an answer , just something be ----- about, you succeeded.

Next time read the rule book and just go with what you want to believe anyway!

If bb9 thinks my answer is wrong he can say so since he knows the rules and has no hidden agenda!

This is ask the ref, not bait or ----- at the ref!
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  #173  
Old 11-05-13, 08:38 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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First off, the sideline infractions go as follows: Sideline warning, followed by 5 yard penalty, then 15 yard (unsportsmanlike I believe) penalty. A coach is allowed to ask for a conference with the referee in regards to rules. If the coach is right about the rule, whatever misapplication that occurred is corrected but if he is wrong he is charged with a timeout. I don't know anything about the Cincy area so I can't comment on any specific coaches (and wouldn't comment anyway).

In regards to some recent posts, I don't feel this is the best place to complain about calls or refs that you have had in the past. It is a good place for rules and mechanics discussion.

By the way, this discussion was originally created for SW OH Official and I apologize if I (unintentionally) hijacked the thread. I enjoy answering these questions but feel that I may be out of place jumping in all the time. AllSports and SW OH Official, please let me know your feelings before I keep jumping in. I don't want to steal anyone else's thunder.
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  #174  
Old 11-07-13, 06:48 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southwest Guy View Post
If any coach anywhere in Ohio makes a habit of walking to midfield because he doesn't like the call what should the penalty be ? What is the procedure for a coach to ask for a conference and when and where should he do it ?
It's become a habit because it was allowed to become a habit. On the first time they make their way to mid-field because they do not like a call, it's a 15 yard unsportsmanlike foul. No sideline warning, no "get back coach" warning....a flag is warranted.

The sideline warning procedures are set in place to help keep the team box clean. (someone outside the team box, but not on the field)

Should a coach feel that an official has made an error in applying the rules properly, (not a judgment call) he may request a time-out and if granted, can bring this apparent to the attention of the Referee. If a change to the original ruling occurs, he is not charged with a time-out.

Last edited by AllSports12; 11-07-13 at 07:12 AM.
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  #175  
Old 11-07-13, 07:28 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post

In regards to some recent posts, I don't feel this is the best place to complain about calls or refs that you have had in the past. It is a good place for rules and mechanics discussion.
Don't feed the trolls, they will go away. Thar being said, in order for this to not become a haven for the immature to come and "mess" with us, it has to be moderated. I sent Yappi a note advising that I would be happy to clean this thread up only if he thinks it would help. I might be told to pound salt, but I think this type of thread can be very beneficial to the fans who truly want to be better informed about the rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
By the way, this discussion was originally created for SW OH Official and I apologize if I (unintentionally) hijacked the thread. I enjoy answering these questions but feel that I may be out of place jumping in all the time. AllSports and SW OH Official, please let me know your feelings before I keep jumping in. I don't want to steal anyone else's thunder.
I don't feel like anything was hijacked by either you or I. That being said, if anyone is going to put their "expertise" out there, (whether anyone started the idea or is just commenting) they have to be right each and every time.......and that hasn't happened here.

I don't apologize for pointing out when one of our brothers or sisters are wrong about a rule, ruling or interpretation. We don't do anyone (officials or fans) any favors if we throw inaccurate information out there. If that ruffles some feathers, that's too bad.......
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  #176  
Old 11-07-13, 09:02 AM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Agreed
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  #177  
Old 11-08-13, 10:33 AM
tom_hsfootball_fan tom_hsfootball_fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shortcut View Post
you have to be an official to download the 2013 version or buy it
No you don't. NFHS has a Kindle version on Amazon for 5.99.
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  #178  
Old 11-08-13, 10:38 AM
tom_hsfootball_fan tom_hsfootball_fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Finally, can someone from the defense stand back by the FG post and knock down a long field goal attempt? I know this is possible in the pros.
Actually, it is NOT legal in the NFL and has not been since 1969, unless there's a recent change I haven't heard of. You can catch and return, but you cannot jump and block the kick from going through. It is also illegal in NCAA.
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  #179  
Old 11-08-13, 10:56 AM
tom_hsfootball_fan tom_hsfootball_fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
The defense cannot score in overtime. So it would just be the end of the offense's series.
Hang on a second... in the NFHS 2012 (and previous editions) Rulebook, in the section on resolving tied games, it says this:

"8-1: If the defensive team scores a safety or touchdown, the game is ended."

That seems to more than simply imply that the defense CAN score in OT. What happens if the offensive player runs out of his own end zone? There's no change of possession to kill the play. I still maintain my old trivia question answer is correct: Team A 28 Team B 14 in 2OT. How? After an equal first OT, Team A scores 6+2 on offense in 2nd OT. Then, after a (admittedly ridiculous) series of penalties, Team B fumbles the ball into their own end zone and A falls on it for 6 more. I've not seen anything written to directly rule this out.
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  #180  
Old 11-08-13, 11:11 AM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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From the OHSAA Football Manual

http://www.ohsaa.org/sports/ft/boys/ftmanual.pdf

Overtime: Use the OHSAA Procedure indicated below. Do NOT use the overtime Procedure listed in the NFHS Rules Book.

Definition: An overtime Period is defined as the Home Team & Visiting Team each having a series.

Start First Overtime Period: Each team has a series of downs.

Change of Possession: If B gains possession, ball is dead immediately. As series has ended.

Scoring: A team may score by touchdown, field goal, & Try ONLY. If A scores a touchdown, then do the Try, unless points would not affect the game outcome. Team with the most points at the end of an overtime Period win. Final score: Combine points scored in regulation & all overtime Periods.

This is outlined on page 10 of the manual (12 of the PDF). Looking at the 2012 version, you are correct. It has been clarified for this season. I have talked to our local interpreter about this issue but I will give Columbus a call just to clarify.
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