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  #121  
Old 11-10-17, 09:30 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
It looks like some of it goes to the Caymans, Cyprus, Switzerland and a few other tax havens. Welfare is a drop in the bucket and goes right back into the local community almost immediate. Giving a tax cut to a billionaire does not.
Oh I don't know Happy claiming "welfare is a drop in the bucket" doesn't seem quite right to me unless you're talking about a very BIG drop. Now the actual amount we spend on "welfare" is a figure that is all over the map ranging from a high of $1,155,000,000,000 (that's a trillion) per year if you include ALL the so called "welfare" like programs at the local, state & federal levels to the most conservative estimate of $342,000,000,000 per year if you ONLY include the following FEDERAL programs: medicaid for those that are NOT ELDERLY or CHILDREN (eg, HEALTHY ADULTS); cash Payments (classic welfare); Food Stamps & Housing Subsidies. That's more than half of what we pay for NATIONAL DEFENSE.
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  #122  
Old 11-10-17, 09:49 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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If you include medicaid/care and SS yes....but a core part of Trumps campaign is he will not touch those programs.

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  #123  
Old 11-10-17, 09:53 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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https://media.c-spanvideo.org/trimme...KVWBEAXX562G7Q
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  #124  
Old 11-10-17, 09:54 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
If you include medicaid/care and SS yes....but a core part of Trumps campaign is he will not touch those programs.

And how does this show that "welfare" is only a drop in the bucket - 11% of the Federal Budget is quite a lot of money!

Also there are HUGE differences between Social Security and Medicaid! As there is between Medicare & Medicaid. Lumping them all together as if they represent the same thing is disingenuous on the part of you and those making the graph or tracking the budget.
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  #125  
Old 11-10-17, 01:22 PM
domi domi is offline
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
100% of taxes left in the hands of the people that earned them goes into the economy as well. Redistributing them just changes where the spending is, not the amounts.
Putting the money into savings or stocks doesn't create jobs or add to the economy. I don't see rich people sitting around saying they would buy a new boat if only they had a tax cut.

Cutting corporate tax rates (or better yet giving tax credits for investing in equipment and people) will help things, cutting taxes for the rich ain't helping anyone but the rich.
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  #126  
Old 11-10-17, 01:54 PM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
Here are some quotes from GOP members pushing this bill through:

*New Jersey Republican Chris Collins recently offered a clue: “My donors are basically saying, ‘Get it done or don’t ever call me again.'”

* Sen. Lindsey Graham says unpopularity of tax reform irrelevant because “the financial contributions will stop” if tax reform fails

It is a gift to the donor class...
Who, as luck would have it, fund about 90% of the federal government's expenditures through their taxes.

Until all citizens have at least some skin in the game, this is what you get.
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  #127  
Old 11-10-17, 02:41 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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Just for a goof, for once, we should take that trillion dollars and target only those earning from about $30k to $150k, give or take. You know, the middle class everyone pretends to care about? All you Trumptards would applaud him (which isn't saying anything) but so would I and most independents and moderates. Talk about boosting the economy. Clearly the current proposal is not about that.
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  #128  
Old 11-10-17, 03:48 PM
serpico serpico is online now
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
Trumptards
Why grown adults would use 'tard' as a suffix to make a childish pejorative is beyond my realm of understanding.
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  #129  
Old 11-10-17, 04:02 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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Wow, lol. Just a play on libtard. Staunch Trump loyalists, sorry.
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  #130  
Old 11-10-17, 04:15 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
Here are some quotes from GOP members pushing this bill through:

*New Jersey Republican Chris Collins recently offered a clue: “My donors are basically saying, ‘Get it done or don’t ever call me again.'”

* Sen. Lindsey Graham says unpopularity of tax reform irrelevant because “the financial contributions will stop” if tax reform fails

It is a gift to the donor class...
The Republicans have been running on Tax Reform (as well as repealing Obamascam) for the last 10 years. It's time to put up or shut up. It's not a gift to the "donor class" (whatever that is). It's a gift to the people that have voted and supported Republicans for the last 20 years.
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  #131  
Old 11-10-17, 04:22 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
It looks like some of it goes to the Caymans, Cyprus, Switzerland and a few other tax havens. Welfare is a drop in the bucket and goes right back into the local community almost immediate. Giving a tax cut to a billionaire does not.
You are living in the past, honest people can't park money overseas to avoid taxes. If you cut 1% from someone making a million dollars it amounts to about $10K in taxes, that $10K is representative of real spending by that person because it was taxed as cash (it's not value locked up in stocks), so that $10K can buy a new car, expand a house, pay for a vacation, throw a party, pay education expenses, be gifted, buy goods and services, or be invested. All of those things are economic activities that go back into the local community and provides opportunities for others. No difference, except in one case the person that earned it gets a return on their labors and in the other the government decides.
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  #132  
Old 11-10-17, 04:25 PM
serpico serpico is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
Just a play on libtard.
I despise both words equally.
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  #133  
Old 11-10-17, 06:06 PM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
You are living in the past, honest people can't park money overseas to avoid taxes. If you cut 1% from someone making a million dollars it amounts to about $10K in taxes, that $10K is representative of real spending by that person because it was taxed as cash (it's not value locked up in stocks), so that $10K can buy a new car, expand a house, pay for a vacation, throw a party, pay education expenses, be gifted, buy goods and services, or be invested. All of those things are economic activities that go back into the local community and provides opportunities for others. No difference, except in one case the person that earned it gets a return on their labors and in the other the government decides.
That is not the people getting the biggest benefit here...it is the people making $5M or with estates of $10M plus. People making $60-100-150 are not coming out ahead and get a very small portion of the revenue SAVINGS, but will have to deal with the debt. What I am saying is the benefit goes to a Very few and the cost is a HUGE increase to the debt that we all will have to pay. Heck Jeff Bezos can get on his jet and become a citizen of any country and avoid taxes in the future and he personally probably benefits more than all of the West Virginia trump voters making less than $150,000 per year.
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  #134  
Old 11-10-17, 06:53 PM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
Wow, lol. Just a play on libtard. Staunch Trump loyalists, sorry.
Not skilled enuff to make up your own insults.

Sad!
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  #135  
Old 11-10-17, 06:57 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domi View Post
Putting the money into stocks doesn't...add to the economy.
Interesting economic analysis. Putting money into the market does not benefit the economy huh? Care to expand on that?

Quote:
I don't see rich people sitting around saying they would buy a new boat if only they had a tax cut.
No, but they may hire some additional employees at their small business. Have work done to their home(employing contractors) buy a new car a little earlier than they would, etc.

"Rich people" aren't scrooge mcduck swimming around in a pile of gold coins. Try not to see the world through such a simplistic lens.
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  #136  
Old 11-10-17, 07:01 PM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
That is not the people getting the biggest benefit here...it is the people making $5M or with estates of $10M plus.
Kill all these people and take every penny they have. It would fund the government at it's current level for about 2 weeks.
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  #137  
Old 11-10-17, 08:45 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domi View Post
Putting the money into savings or stocks doesn't create jobs or add to the economy. I don't see rich people sitting around saying they would buy a new boat if only they had a tax cut.

Cutting corporate tax rates (or better yet giving tax credits for investing in equipment and people) will help things, cutting taxes for the rich ain't helping anyone but the rich.
Putting the money into savings or stocks provides capital for improvements and the creation of new businesses. Giving someone else's money to someone that did nothing to earn it helps no one.
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  #138  
Old 11-10-17, 09:05 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
That is not the people getting the biggest benefit here...it is the people making $5M or with estates of $10M plus. People making $60-100-150 are not coming out ahead and get a very small portion of the revenue SAVINGS, but will have to deal with the debt. What I am saying is the benefit goes to a Very few and the cost is a HUGE increase to the debt that we all will have to pay. Heck Jeff Bezos can get on his jet and become a citizen of any country and avoid taxes in the future and he personally probably benefits more than all of the West Virginia trump voters making less than $150,000 per year.
This is why we can't have nice things...... we aren't all in this together. Someone making under $60K is paying a net income tax rate around 5%. $100K? Around 8%. $150K, about 15%. You get to someone making $5M and their effective income tax rate is around 32%. The national debt was not run up because of the financial activities of the Jeff Bezos', he and people of his income level pay nearly 30% of ALL income taxes despite being less than 1% of the population and receiving 12% of the income. They re paying their fair share.

We need to actually reform taxes to the point that it doesn't require teams of lawyers and accountants to understand the rates, the codes, the deductions, the credits, etc. If Joe the Plumber can get a credit for their kids college so should Bill Gates. If the thought of everyone paying the same percentage terrifies you - so that some teen on minimum wage owes 10 cents on every dollar they receive (about $1500) and Jeff Bezos pays 10 cents on every dollar he receives (about $5M) then we should adopt FairTax or a very simplified version of an Income Tax - eliminate deductions, credits, etc. and tax the 1st $25K at 1%, the next $225K at 10%, and everything above that at 20%. Make the share of taxes permanent so any increase or decrease to any bracket results in the same changes to the others. Done. Then let the government figure out what they can pay for on that income, not what they want to spend, not what they want to use to buy votes, not to let them take what they want, but to actually live within a budget that EVERYONE contributes something for.
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  #139  
Old 11-11-17, 07:22 PM
domi domi is offline
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Originally Posted by Neopolitan View Post
Interesting economic analysis. Putting money into the market does not benefit the economy huh? Care to expand on that?



No, but they may hire some additional employees at their small business. Have work done to their home(employing contractors) buy a new car a little earlier than they would, etc.

"Rich people" aren't scrooge mcduck swimming around in a pile of gold coins. Try not to see the world through such a simplistic lens.
Outside of IPOs people/companies are not selling stock to raise capital. Most selling of stock nowadays is from one investor to another.

I can see corporate tax cuts or credits on capital purchases as something to stimulate the economy but not cutting tax rates for RI h individuals. Your last statement about rich people not being scrooge mcducks is correct. I don't think they sit around on piles of money we saying gee whiz if only I had a tax cut I could out that new roof on my house. I also don't think they need a tax cut.

George Will had a really good article in the last couple days about the possible tax cuts. He had an interesting statement about companies not paying taxes but collecting them for the gubmint. I think there is some truth to his statement.
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  #140  
Old 11-11-17, 10:45 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by domi View Post
Outside of IPOs people/companies are not selling stock to raise capital. Most selling of stock nowadays is from one investor to another.

I can see corporate tax cuts or credits on capital purchases as something to stimulate the economy but not cutting tax rates for RI h individuals. Your last statement about rich people not being scrooge mcducks is correct. I don't think they sit around on piles of money we saying gee whiz if only I had a tax cut I could out that new roof on my house. I also don't think they need a tax cut.

George Will had a really good article in the last couple days about the possible tax cuts. He had an interesting statement about companies not paying taxes but collecting them for the gubmint. I think there is some truth to his statement.
I actually think corporate tax rates should be 0, don't tax corporate income, tax retained earnings and encourage corporations to pay out profits to the stockholders.

Those investors selling stock among themselves are receiving profits and creating wealth for themselves. When the wealthy get a tax cut they do the same things as anyone else, they spend the money. They buy something, build something, fix something, or create something and everything they do creates or continues to fund someone's job. But if it's taken from them in taxes to redistribute to someone that did nothing to earn it, they get nothing for their labor.

The government needs the money less than the people that earned it. We don't necessarily need a tax cut as much as we need tax reform. Some people that pay nothing should pay something and some people that pay something should pay less and some should pay more. But we aren't going to fix it by ignoring the problem - if we doubled everyone's taxes and doubled revenue the spending would just double leaving us exactly where we are today except spending more money faster.

Get every worker with some skin in the game and slash spending to only those things that are Constitutionally obligated. If the separate and individual states want to place high taxes on their citizens to redistribute income, let the people decide where they want to live. We'll never fix it if we don't cut spending.
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  #141  
Old 11-11-17, 11:17 PM
domi domi is offline
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I agree we have a spending problem in this great country of ours but the tax cuts the Republicans are proposing does nothing to help that. It looks like the same voodoo economics that they have tried for the last 40 years. Just giving something to everyone (doubling the standard deduction) to try to make them happy is not a longterm winning solution.
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  #142  
Old 11-11-17, 11:50 PM
serpico serpico is online now
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Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
When the wealthy get a tax cut they do the same things as anyone else, they spend the money. They buy something, build something, fix something, or create something and everything they do creates or continues to fund someone's job.
I'm not taking a position on tax reform, but if a wealthy person gets a tax cut of $17,500 and buys 100 shares of Apple, the only real profit is the $6.95 that Scottrade gets to execute the buy order.
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  #143  
Old 11-12-17, 12:19 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by serpico View Post
I'm not taking a position on tax reform, but if a wealthy person gets a tax cut of $17,500 and buys 100 shares of Apple, the only real profit is the $6.95 that Scottrade gets to execute the buy order.
right.

It's hoarding.
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  #144  
Old 11-12-17, 08:53 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by serpico View Post
I'm not taking a position on tax reform, but if a wealthy person gets a tax cut of $17,500 and buys 100 shares of Apple, the only real profit is the $6.95 that Scottrade gets to execute the buy order.
No, the person that owned the shares previously gets $17,500 (less 20% or more in tax that the government will collect on that transaction) that may or may not include a profit from when they bought it, to go spend on whatever they sold the stock to do. AND ScottTrade gets a commission.
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  #145  
Old 11-12-17, 09:40 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo View Post
right.

It's hoarding.
How? There is a financial transaction where 1 party is able to sell a good and receive income for it. They will pay taxes on that transaction. The other person is allowing the initial investor to receive a gain or loss on their investment and also pays a commission to perform the transaction. You should probably brush up on your understanding of the definition of hoarding.
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  #146  
Old 11-12-17, 10:52 AM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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Originally Posted by domi View Post
I agree we have a spending problem in this great country of ours but the tax cuts the Republicans are proposing does nothing to help that. It looks like the same voodoo economics that they have tried for the last 40 years. Just giving something to everyone (doubling the standard deduction) to try to make them happy is not a longterm winning solution.
Tax cuts or resetting taxes to where they were before president Obama increased them. And don't forget he also layered on a second major increase through the Affordable Care Act.

Just going back to where they were. Until we face the fact that we have a spending problem and address Medicare Medicaid and social security we will merely spin our wheels. No politician will touch spending it's a sure way to not getting. Reelected
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  #147  
Old 11-12-17, 03:19 PM
domi domi is offline
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Tax cuts or resetting taxes to where they were before president Obama increased them. And don't forget he also layered on a second major increase through the Affordable Care Act.

Just going back to where they were. Until we face the fact that we have a spending problem and address Medicare Medicaid and social security we will merely spin our wheels. No politician will touch spending it's a sure way to not getting. Reelected
Besides obamacare when did Obama raise tax rates? I found where tobacco taxes went up but can't find any other tax increases besides obamacare.
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  #148  
Old 11-12-17, 03:28 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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The top marginal rate went from 35% to 40% under Obama for one.
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  #149  
Old 11-12-17, 04:35 PM
HTFF HTFF is offline
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Besides obamacare when did Obama raise tax rates? I found where tobacco taxes went up but can't find any other tax increases besides obamacare.
He repealed the Bush tax plan
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  #150  
Old 11-12-17, 04:38 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is offline
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Timely article from the National Review on the myth of the idle rich: http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...-gets-it-wrong
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