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  #2581  
Old 08-03-17, 10:38 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Once again 13Blue, teams need to look at what is currently happening and what could happen in the future. They should have had the foresight to see one player was 26 and very unlikely to significantly improve over the next 5 years (guess what, he didn't) while the other was 22 and likely to continue to improve (guess what? He did). It doesn't take a genius to figure out 26 year olds rarely improve significantly.

Furthermore, the Reds knew each players contract details. They could have saved money. Since it's not your money, you'll never understand.
I believe in 2012, the Reds were contending, Cozart was cheap and very good defensively, hit #7 or #8. I really don't think it was much of a consideration.
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  #2582  
Old 08-03-17, 10:50 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
How'd that work out for the Reds? Pennant? Playoff wins? Long term contract?

It's not your money so paying Cozart an additional $3 million is easy for you to say. Some people, when their money isn't on the line, will never understand. Am I right, 14 Red?
Choo was the right player at the time. The Reds made the playoffs. It cost the Reds a player that has had nearly the same production as Cozart. The only way it would matter about age is if the Reds would be willing to sign Didi long term. If so, they can bid on him in Free Agency.

Would the Reds have made the playoffs without Choo? Probably not.
Would the Reds be better now with Didi instead of Cozart? Probably but not good enough to make the playoffs.

You seem to think $3M over 5 yrs is a lot of money. In MLB that will buy you a rookie per year. Again, no appreciable difference.
  #2583  
Old 08-03-17, 11:01 AM
wolves82 wolves82 is offline
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Early August check in: Reds at 44-63 (.411) which extrapolates to 66.5 wins.
Currently better than the Phillies, White Sox and Giants in the standings.

If you had told me in March the Reds would be have a better record than the Giants in early August, I would have presumed you were drunk. Funny what starting pitching does for a team. No Bumgardner, Cueto sub-par and injured, Samardjiza having bad hair days or something. They go from contender to terrible.
  #2584  
Old 08-03-17, 11:10 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
I believe in 2012, the Reds were contending, Cozart was cheap and very good defensively, hit #7 or #8. I really don't think it was much of a consideration.
Right, the Reds didn't have the foresight to see Didi would be similar to Cozart in the immediate and better in the future. And they would have saved $3 million.
  #2585  
Old 08-03-17, 11:10 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
You seem to think $3M over 5 yrs is a lot of money. In MLB that will buy you a rookie per year. Again, no appreciable difference.
Spoken like someone who's money isn't on the line. You'll never understand, right 14Red?
  #2586  
Old 08-03-17, 11:11 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Not sure Gregorias would have put us over the top....

In major league baseball terms $3 mill is is like $1,000 dollars. Just stop it...
Doesn't matter. They would have gotten better production for less money.

Whoa whoa whoa man. It isn't YOUR money. You wouldn't understand. It's so easy to say "it's only $3 million" because it isn't your money on the line. You aren't the one signing these guys paychecks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
I'm amazed how people don't worry about how other people's money is spent.

Last edited by Taco MacArthur; 08-03-17 at 11:24 AM..
  #2587  
Old 08-03-17, 11:18 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Right, the Reds didn't have the foresight to see Didi would be similar to Cozart in the immediate and better in the future. And they would have saved $3 million.
Except Cozart was better than Didi when the Reds window of contention was open. It really doesn't matter if Didi is better this year. The Reds weren't contenders.
  #2588  
Old 08-03-17, 11:24 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Except Cozart was better than Didi when the Reds window of contention was open. It really doesn't matter if Didi is better this year. The Reds weren't contenders.
They were similar players in 2013.

Cozart - 12 HR, 63 RBI, .254 average, 0.284 obp, 0.381 slg, 0.665 ops
Didi* - 7 HR, 28 RBI, 0.252 average , 0.332 obp, 0.373 slg, 0.704 ops

*Didi had 200 less plate appearances. Reasonable to expect about 10 HRs and 40 RBIs. So much for that.
  #2589  
Old 08-03-17, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by wolves82 View Post
Early August check in: Reds at 44-63 (.411) which extrapolates to 66.5 wins.
Currently better than the Phillies, White Sox and Giants in the standings.

If you had told me in March the Reds would be have a better record than the Giants in early August, I would have presumed you were drunk. Funny what starting pitching does for a team. No Bumgardner, Cueto sub-par and injured, Samardjiza having bad hair days or something. They go from contender to terrible.
How many more wins do you think the Reds would have if Disco, Finnegan and Baily had been in the rotation since opening day?
  #2590  
Old 08-03-17, 11:29 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
They were similar players in 2013.

Cozart - 12 HR, 63 RBI, .254 average, 0.284 obp, 0.381 slg, 0.665 ops
Didi* - 7 HR, 28 RBI, 0.252 average , 0.332 obp, 0.373 slg, 0.704 ops

*Didi had 200 less plate appearances. Reasonable to expect about 10 HRs and 40 RBIs. So much for that.
Didi got them Choo. Why do you continually want to discount that?

They got essentially the same production at SS but seriously upgraded CF.

It was the right move.
  #2591  
Old 08-03-17, 11:32 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Didi got them Choo. Why do you continually want to discount that?

They got essentially the same production at SS but seriously upgraded CF.

It was the right move.
I'm not discounting anything. You said Cozart was better than Didi was. That simply isn't true.

Choo was in Cincinnati for only one year. Why do you continually want to discount that? Had a 4.4 WAR. Put a replacement player in for the Reds they tie the Nationals for the last WC spot. Very likely they still make the playoffs.
  #2592  
Old 08-03-17, 01:38 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I'm not discounting anything. You said Cozart was better than Didi was. That simply isn't true.

Choo was in Cincinnati for only one year. Why do you continually want to discount that? Had a 4.4 WAR. Put a replacement player in for the Reds they tie the Nationals for the last WC spot. Very likely they still make the playoffs.
It may be difficult for me to make a rational opinion here, but side by side, knowing what I know about Cozart and his impact on the Reds. I'd have made the same decision. The extra $3 mill is simply an acceleration of salary because Cozart is older, Didi will have made more than Cozart at this time next season.
But body of work vs. body of work, I'd take what Zack's done. Now, that's just me and my eyeball test...
  #2593  
Old 08-03-17, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
543 hits to 511 hits
252 runs to 265 runs
59 HR to 53 HR
234 RB to 218 RBI


5 year numbers..... no appreciable difference.

Of course one player brought Sin Shoo-Choo to Cincy.

Keeping Cozart was the right move.
Terrible move. They'd have a 27 yo SS instead of the part time player Cozart is now. But maybe you're right, nobody wants Cozart now, much less willing to trade Shoo for him.
  #2594  
Old 08-03-17, 01:49 PM
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I thought Indiandad left in shame after he bungled the waivers issue and improperly assessed what the yankee and Red Sox would do at 3rd base.
  #2595  
Old 08-03-17, 02:38 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I'm not discounting anything. You said Cozart was better than Didi was. That simply isn't true.

Choo was in Cincinnati for only one year. Why do you continually want to discount that? Had a 4.4 WAR. Put a replacement player in for the Reds they tie the Nationals for the last WC spot. Very likely they still make the playoffs.
Drew Stubbs the 2012 CF who was also in the Gregorius trade hit .213 with 14 HR and 40 RBI.
Choo hit 21 HR and 54 RBI along with a .285 average.

You're a fool if you think keeping Gregorius and Stubbs was a better move.
  #2596  
Old 08-03-17, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Drew Stubbs the 2012 CF who was also in the Gregorius trade hit .213 with 14 HR and 40 RBI.
Choo hit 21 HR and 54 RBI along with a .285 average.

You're a fool if you think keeping Gregorius and Stubbs was a better move.
They should have just kept Gregorius. Another talent assessment miss by you and the Reds front office.
  #2597  
Old 08-03-17, 02:42 PM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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I thought Indiandad left in shame after he bungled the waivers issue and improperly assessed what the yankee and Red Sox would do at 3rd base.
Shame??? I didn't bungle anything. I taught you about MLB contracts. You had no idea such things as termination clauses even existed.
I accurately predicted both Boston and New York would be the only two teams looking to upgrade 3B.
  #2598  
Old 08-03-17, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
They should have just kept Gregorius. Another talent assessment miss by you and the Reds front office.
And the Reds would have missed the playoffs. Great call!
  #2599  
Old 08-03-17, 02:46 PM
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And the Reds would have missed the playoffs. Great call!
Why? Cozart and Stubbs would have gotten him since Cozart was the better player according to you.
  #2600  
Old 08-03-17, 02:47 PM
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Shame??? I didn't bungle anything. I taught you about MLB contracts. You had no idea such things as termination clauses even existed.
I accurately predicted both Boston and New York would be the only two teams looking to upgrade 3B.
hilarious.
  #2601  
Old 08-03-17, 06:08 PM
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Remember last year when 14red tried to tell us Barnhart was better than Wilson Contreras?
  #2602  
Old 08-03-17, 06:31 PM
Sig Hansen Sig Hansen is offline
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Desclafani goes 1/3 inning, gives up 8 hits, 3HR and 8 ER tonight at Dayton. Sweet

Time to bring up Mahle in the next few weeks imo. Crushing it down in Louisville
  #2603  
Old 08-04-17, 06:53 AM
wolves82 wolves82 is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
How many more wins do you think the Reds would have if Disco, Finnegan and Baily had been in the rotation since opening day?
A good question. Certainly Disco, Finnegan, Bailey are not the same caliber as Bumgardner, Cueto and Samardjiza.

But if the Reds had all 3 healthy all season I'd presume that they would have 6-8 more wins now. Let's think back to all the awful 3-4 inning starts turned in this year by Arroyo, Reed, and many other lame wads. With the way the Reds offense and bullpen started the year, they would have won those 6-8 extra games just with so-so MLB starting pitching. Which is what Disco, Finnegan and Bailey could provide.
  #2604  
Old 08-04-17, 07:10 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
It may be difficult for me to make a rational opinion here, but side by side, knowing what I know about Cozart and his impact on the Reds. I'd have made the same decision. The extra $3 mill is simply an acceleration of salary because Cozart is older, Didi will have made more than Cozart at this time next season.
But body of work vs. body of work, I'd take what Zack's done. Now, that's just me and my eyeball test...
Again, spoken like someone whose money isn't on the line. You aren't the one signing their paychecks, easy for you to say you'd throw that money around. It doesn't matter if the extra $3 million is simply because Cozart is older. It is still an extra $3 million.

So you would take an inferior player?
  #2605  
Old 08-04-17, 07:13 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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And the Reds would have missed the playoffs. Great call!
Nope. I've already addressed that. Try again!
  #2606  
Old 08-04-17, 07:16 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Drew Stubbs the 2012 CF who was also in the Gregorius trade hit .213 with 14 HR and 40 RBI.
Choo hit 21 HR and 54 RBI along with a .285 average.

You're a fool if you think keeping Gregorius and Stubbs was a better move.
How many times are you going to move the goal posts of this argument? And why are you comparing Stubbs 2012 stats with Choo's 2013 stats?
  #2607  
Old 08-04-17, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
It may be difficult for me to make a rational opinion here, but side by side, knowing what I know about Cozart and his impact on the Reds. I'd have made the same decision. The extra $3 mill is simply an acceleration of salary because Cozart is older, Didi will have made more than Cozart at this time next season.
But body of work vs. body of work, I'd take what Zack's done. Now, that's just me and my eyeball test...
I'm not sure how anyone can claim Cozart's "body of work" is better. He's 4 years older and Did's offensive numbers are better from an OPS+ perspective, gloves about equal, and did I mention Didi is 4 yrs younger with a much much higher ceiling? It was dumb to choose Cozart over him. It speaks to this organization's terrible eye for talent.
  #2608  
Old 08-04-17, 08:34 AM
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How many more wins do you think the Reds would have if Disco, Finnegan and Baily had been in the rotation since opening day?
Not as many as you seem to think. Maybe 5 more wins?
  #2609  
Old 08-04-17, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Again, spoken like someone whose money isn't on the line. You aren't the one signing their paychecks, easy for you to say you'd throw that money around. It doesn't matter if the extra $3 million is simply because Cozart is older. It is still an extra $3 million.

So you would take an inferior player?
IN MY OPINION...I'd still take Cozart's body of work over Gregorias. And please remember that by 2018, Gregorias will be making significantly more than Cozart. It was an option the Reds had to make at the time and that's what they chose? If you're going to crucify every single decision a club makes, then you're a warped fan. The Reds were looking to contend in 2012, if they were rebuilding, then Didi would have made sense. Even now, if the Reds were contending, you wouldn't see Peraza and Winker on the field. But they are rebuilding.
  #2610  
Old 08-04-17, 08:52 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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IN MY OPINION...I'd still take Cozart's body of work over Gregorias. And please remember that by 2018, Gregorias will be making significantly more than Cozart. It was an option the Reds had to make at the time and that's what they chose? If you're going to crucify every single decision a club makes, then you're a warped fan. The Reds were looking to contend in 2012, if they were rebuilding, then Didi would have made sense. Even now, if the Reds were contending, you wouldn't see Peraza and Winker on the field. But they are rebuilding.
So in your opinion, you'd take an inferior player. Okay, got it. You're assuming Didi will be making more, there's no way of knowing that for sure. I haven't crucified every decision the club has made. You asked for a SS who put up similar or better production than Cozart for less money. Didi was brought up, someone who the Reds chose to part with. No, a warped fan thinks every decision the clubs makes is a good one, aka you. And that's weird, the Red Sox are first in their division and just brought up a 3rd baseman from Triple A. According to you, they should have stayed with Marrero.
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