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  #661  
Old 07-26-18, 05:22 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobcatBomber View Post
Can someone explain to me why a 1st and 2nd strike foul ball that is fouled into the mitt of a catcher is not an out, but the 3rd strike is?
Because the during the action you describe, the contact between the bat and ball is ignored and the ball remains live. Strike one, strike two, and strike three

Last edited by AllSports12; 07-26-18 at 05:56 PM.
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  #662  
Old 07-26-18, 11:21 PM
simkon simkon is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
This is an example of why I hesitate to discuss specific situations and focus on rules and mechanics, as you significantly changed the dynamics of the play..
I know the general rules regarding replay, but had never seen an extra out recorded in case the actual 3rd out recorded was overturned. Adding in that the extra out was only recorded because the runners thought the inning was over. The replay officials have never had to deal with a situation quite like this before, had the force out only been the 1st or 2nd out in the inning then there would not have been any problem.
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  #663  
Old 07-27-18, 06:54 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simkon View Post
I know the general rules regarding replay, but had never seen an extra out recorded in case the actual 3rd out recorded was overturned. Adding in that the extra out was only recorded because the runners thought the inning was over. The replay officials have never had to deal with a situation quite like this before, had the force out only been the 1st or 2nd out in the inning then there would not have been any problem.
Once the runner from 1st was ruled out via a force play at 2nd (3rd out) the inning ended. All further activity is ignored as nothing further can happen by rule.

If, the call at 2nd is overturned via replay, there are only two options to be considered with regards to the lead runner......... He is either returned to third base or he is awarded home. Those two decisions are the responsibility of the replay official.

There is no "extra out" to consider.
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  #664  
Old 07-27-18, 07:25 AM
BobcatBomber BobcatBomber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Because the during the action you describe, the contact between the bat and ball is ignored and the ball remains live. Strike one, strike two, and strike three
Why is that?

If the batter swings, slightly tips the ball and the catcher drops it, is that considered a foul, or a dropped 3rd strike?
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  #665  
Old 07-27-18, 09:34 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobcatBomber View Post
Why is that?
It allows for continuous action. Rewards the defense for making a play and protects the offense when the play is not made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobcatBomber View Post
If the batter swings, slightly tips the ball and the catcher drops it, is that considered a foul, or a dropped 3rd strike?
Foul ball by definition. That applies regardless how many strikes there are on the batter.
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  #666  
Old 07-27-18, 10:26 AM
simkon simkon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Once the runner from 1st was ruled out via a force play at 2nd (3rd out) the inning ended. All further activity is ignored as nothing further can happen by rule.
So in a situation in which there is a runner on 1st and 2 out, a ground ball is hit to the second-baseman and he flips it to the short-stop but may have pulled him off the base so the SS throws to first before the runner reaches the base. If the runner at 2nd is initially ruled out by force then the call is overturned then are you saying that even though the fielder threw to 1st in case he came off the bag early that the out would not count and there would be runners on first and second with 2 outs?
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  #667  
Old 07-27-18, 12:25 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simkon View Post
So in a situation in which there is a runner on 1st and 2 out, a ground ball is hit to the second-baseman and he flips it to the short-stop but may have pulled him off the base so the SS throws to first before the runner reaches the base. If the runner at 2nd is initially ruled out by force then the call is overturned then are you saying that even though the fielder threw to 1st in case he came off the bag early that the out would not count and there would be runners on first and second with 2 outs?
If the call at 2nd is overturned and the runner is ruled safe.... The replay official must then determine where to place any other runner.

In this situation the throw to first may or may not be of aid to the replay official and here's why........

What if the Batter/Runner pulled up momentarily when the original throw went to second? Had he not pulled up maybe he beats that instinctive throw.

The bottom line in this....... There is no additional out. There are things however that can help the replay official to make a proper determination.
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  #668  
Old 07-27-18, 12:30 PM
Buck_98 Buck_98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simkon View Post
So in a situation in which there is a runner on 1st and 2 out, a ground ball is hit to the second-baseman and he flips it to the short-stop but may have pulled him off the base so the SS throws to first before the runner reaches the base. If the runner at 2nd is initially ruled out by force then the call is overturned then are you saying that even though the fielder threw to 1st in case he came off the bag early that the out would not count and there would be runners on first and second with 2 outs?
I've been coaching high school baseball for over 10 years and have never heard of an extra out just in case a play gets overturned. Is that an MLB thing? I've never heard it discussed at the coach's clinics in Columbus.
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  #669  
Old 07-27-18, 12:34 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Buck_98 View Post
I've been coaching high school baseball for over 10 years and have never heard of an extra out just in case a play gets overturned. Is that an MLB thing? I've never heard it discussed at the coach's clinics in Columbus.
The only time an additional out would come into play is when an appeal by the defense results in a "4th" out.

That "4th out" could result in a run not scoring.
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  #670  
Old 07-27-18, 12:42 PM
Buck_98 Buck_98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simkon View Post
This is the location of all players at the moment the force out was recorded at 2nd.
What age group is this? Why is the catcher backing up a throw to 1st with runners on? Why is the pitcher standing on the mound when there is a runner at second? If both runners are running with the pitch how did the runner on 2nd make it almost home but the runner going to 2nd is thrown out and the batter/runner is past 1st base? I'm guessing 6 made the throw to 4 for the out since 6 is in the hole and 4 is closest to the bag but in the baseline after the runner is on 2nd. I only ask because you wrote "This is the location of all players at the moment the force out was recorded at 2nd." and things don't look right.
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  #671  
Old 07-27-18, 12:45 PM
Buck_98 Buck_98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
The only time an additional out would come into play is when an appeal by the defense results in a "4th" out.

That "4th out" could result in a run not scoring.
That I have actually seen in an MLB game. Line drive was caught and runner got caught in a run down between 1st and 2nd. Runner on 3rd took off without tagging. Rundown was the 3rd out and the run scored. Third baseman asked for the ball and stepped on 3rd run didn't count.
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  #672  
Old 07-27-18, 12:50 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck_98 View Post
That I have actually seen in an MLB game. Line drive was caught and runner got caught in a run down between 1st and 2nd. Runner on 3rd took off without tagging. Rundown was the 3rd out and the run scored. Third baseman asked for the ball and stepped on 3rd run didn't count.

Exactly


A 4th out appeal would involve an infraction by a base runner while the ball is live.

The ball became dead once the inning ended (3rd out) in the situations presented here.
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  #673  
Old 07-28-18, 04:29 PM
simkon simkon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck_98 View Post
Is that an MLB thing?
It would only apply to professional baseball and the boys/baseball college world series.
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  #674  
Old 07-29-18, 11:08 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by simkon View Post
It would only apply to professional baseball and the boys/baseball college world series.
Again.... and for the final time..... There is no "extra out" Not in MLB, NCAA, NFHS, USSSA, LL.....

It's time to move to another subject.

Last edited by AllSports12; 07-29-18 at 11:20 AM.
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  #675  
Old 07-30-18, 04:24 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Hidden ball Trick rulings....

Saw 2 teams try it this weekend in a 12 yr old tournament. I am not exactly sure what rules they were going by.

The first attempt the pitcher stood right behind the rubber. Runner on 3rd knew what was up and yelled "pitcher has the ball" and the play ended.

Then in the very next game, the team that had the attempted hidden ball trick done on them tries to do this play. If you watched the previous game, which I did, it was pretty obvious that was what they were attempting to do.

So, not being sure what rules they went by I waited to say anything. As soon as I saw the pitcher straddle the rubber I knew that it pretty much was illegal no matter the rules so as soon as the runner got off and was tagged by the third basemen I, of course, yelled balk.

It was called and the coach went out to argue why it was called.

So my question to you Mr AllSports is......

When time is out (which is what occurred here) it is my understanding that the HP umpire does not call play back in until the pitcher has the ball and ready to get on the rubber, so something close to that..correct?

If the HP umpire is fooled and calls the ball into play then a balk should be called correct in accordance to the rules (OBR, NFHS (5feet) or collegiate (on the dirt area).

Or should the umpire really rule that the play never should have happened because the ball never should have been put into play since the pitcher did not have the ball?


Just wondering.....thanks.

All in all, I think the umps at the Plain City tournament did a very good job. Many kids were new to balks and such and gave warnings, and even showed the kids a proper way to do things. I also liked how they took care of an incident of a player being a bit aggressive/angry by talking to him. He likely could have tossed the kid, but instead talked to him fairly sternly near the dugout
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  #676  
Old 07-30-18, 05:51 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Hidden ball Trick rulings....

Saw 2 teams try it this weekend in a 12 yr old tournament. I am not exactly sure what rules they were going by.

The first attempt the pitcher stood right behind the rubber. Runner on 3rd knew what was up and yelled "pitcher has the ball" and the play ended.

Then in the very next game, the team that had the attempted hidden ball trick done on them tries to do this play. If you watched the previous game, which I did, it was pretty obvious that was what they were attempting to do.

So, not being sure what rules they went by I waited to say anything. As soon as I saw the pitcher straddle the rubber I knew that it pretty much was illegal no matter the rules so as soon as the runner got off and was tagged by the third basemen I, of course, yelled balk.

It was called and the coach went out to argue why it was called.

So my question to you Mr AllSports is......

When time is out (which is what occurred here) it is my understanding that the HP umpire does not call play back in until the pitcher has the ball and ready to get on the rubber, so something close to that..correct?

If the HP umpire is fooled and calls the ball into play then a balk should be called correct in accordance to the rules (OBR, NFHS (5feet) or collegiate (on the dirt area).

Or should the umpire really rule that the play never should have happened because the ball never should have been put into play since the pitcher did not have the ball?


Just wondering.....thanks.

All in all, I think the umps at the Plain City tournament did a very good job. Many kids were new to balks and such and gave warnings, and even showed the kids a proper way to do things. I also liked how they took care of an incident of a player being a bit aggressive/angry by talking to him. He likely could have tossed the kid, but instead talked to him fairly sternly near the dugout
On balls that remain live live when the original play ends the three major codes all have a different rule that applies to the hidden ball trick. In this situation, when the ball is live it is a balk when.........

NFHS - The pitcher places his feet on or astride the pitcher’s plate, or positions himself within approximately five feet of the pitcher’s plate without having the ball.

NCAA - While not in possession of the ball, the pitcher stands with either foot or both feet on any part of the dirt area (circle) of the mound during a hidden-ballplay attempt;

OBR (MLB) - When the pitcher takes a position on or astride the rubber.


If the ball is declared dead at the end of the previous play. The ball cannot be made live until the following three things happen.....

- The Pitcher, in possession of the ball takes his place on the pitcher's plate
- The Catcher takes his position in the Catcher's Box
- The Batter takes his position (and ready to hit) in the Batter's Box

Anything that happens until all three components are met is a whole lot of nothing..... whether it be a clever tag on an unsuspecting runner, or the resulting rundown and overthrow into dead ball territory once the runner thinks hes been had.
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  #677  
Old 08-06-18, 11:18 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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I understand all of that. As an umpire youc annot call ball into play until those things happen, as you state.
BUt what if, as an umpire, you are fooled and call the ball into play because you believed the pitcher to have the ball. Do you call a balk, or do you call it NO PLAY since you inadvertently put the ball into play.
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  #678  
Old 08-07-18, 05:45 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
I understand all of that. As an umpire youc annot call ball into play until those things happen, as you state.
BUt what if, as an umpire, you are fooled and call the ball into play because you believed the pitcher to have the ball. Do you call a balk, or do you call it NO PLAY since you inadvertently put the ball into play.
The ball cannot, by rule, be put into play until all of the criteria (posted above) is met.

No play has occurred.
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  #679  
Old 08-17-18, 02:44 PM
sig4969 sig4969 is offline
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Los Angeles Angels vs Texas Rangers 08/16/18 top 4th

base are loaded

batter hits ground ball to third umpire signal no catch

third baseman fields the ball goes to tag runner on third
runner leaves the bag.

third baseman step on third

runner from third run outside the base path

third baseman throw ball to second baseman stand on second

Did umpire signal out for stepping on third ??
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  #680  
Old 08-17-18, 04:27 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by sig4969 View Post
base are loaded

batter hits ground ball to third umpire signal no catch

third baseman fields the ball goes to tag runner on third
runner leaves the bag.

third baseman step on third

runner from third run outside the base path

third baseman throw ball to second baseman stand on second

Did umpire signal out for stepping on third ??

Yes he did.... Here's what happened....

- Low line drive, F5 catches the ball on a short-hop, therefore the Umpire signals "safe" (indicating no catch)

- The runner from 3rd retreats to the bag because he thinks the ball could be caught, once he realizes it is not caught he starts to move towards home, while at the same time F5 advances towards him, ball in hand

- F5 reaches to tag the runner from 3rd but a split second before he tags the runner, he steps on 3rd base, which retires the runner from second on the force out. (out #1)

- Immediately after touching 3rd base with his foot, the tags the runner from third who is off the base. (out #2)

- The 3rd Base Umpire points to 3rd base and signals "out" for the force, then points to the runner and signals "out" for the tag of the runner off the base

- F5 then throws to F4 who is standing on second base. (out#3) That action completes the triple play, however, because things happened so fast, the runner from 1st, F4, and the 2nd base umpire aren't sure how many outs were recorded at third as well as not being sure if the force out was still in effect on the runner from 1st (it was).

- The runner from first retreats towards first, a run down starts, and the runner tries to evade a tag by running into the infield grass. the 2nd base Umpire then signals "out" on that maneuver. (he was already out, it was discovered on the original throw to second)

This is why baseball is the greatest game..... you never know what's going to happen and when you think you've seen it all..... well, you see something new.
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  #681  
Old 04-08-19, 09:43 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Bases loaded.
1 out.

Ground ball to third. R2 is called for INTERFERANCE and a dead ball was called.

What is the ruling on the field and what does the BATTER get credited for?

I know if the ball hits a runner he is out, every returns to their previous base unless forced to the next one, and BATTER goes to first and credited with it hit.


WHAT WAS CALLED: Umpires originally called it a DP, inning over and no run scored. Then they called the 'league office' and changed the call to basically the same ruling as if the runner had been hit by the batted ball. I accepted that answer, but A. For a dead ball INT is that the right call and what does the batter get credited for?



BTW---I believe it was a bad call because the fielder did end up fielding it cleanly and had a good opportunity to turn a double play




And a note to umpires, and I believe you are taught this, but be loud and decisive when making your calls as it exudes you got it right. Saw both sides of it this weekend. Quiet, lethargic and wishwashy calls lead to controversy and pissed off people wherease the loud and decisive ones leave no doubt and show that even if you at wrong......people who don't know the rule will believe you are right.
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  #682  
Old 04-08-19, 10:31 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Bases loaded.
1 out.

Ground ball to third. R2 is called for INTERFERANCE and a dead ball was called.

What is the ruling on the field and what does the BATTER get credited for?

I know if the ball hits a runner he is out, every returns to their previous base unless forced to the next one, and BATTER goes to first and credited with it hit.


WHAT WAS CALLED: Umpires originally called it a DP, inning over and no run scored. Then they called the 'league office' and changed the call to basically the same ruling as if the runner had been hit by the batted ball. I accepted that answer, but A. For a dead ball INT is that the right call and what does the batter get credited for?



BTW---I believe it was a bad call because the fielder did end up fielding it cleanly and had a good opportunity to turn a double play




And a note to umpires, and I believe you are taught this, but be loud and decisive when making your calls as it exudes you got it right. Saw both sides of it this weekend. Quiet, lethargic and wishwashy calls lead to controversy and pissed off people wherease the loud and decisive ones leave no doubt and show that even if you at wrong......people who don't know the rule will believe you are right.
With regards to the call....

R2 is out immediately for the Interference and if in the judgment of the umpire the interference prevented another putout to be completed, then either the batter or another runner can be declared out.

From what you describe in this play, two outs could have been declared on this... One for the INT by the runner and another for the subsequent out at second base or on the batter-runner.

With regards to scoring....

The NFHS does not have a published standard for scoring. Typically they use the guidelines set by Official Baseball Rules. In this case you would not credit the batter with a hit. Instead, a fielder's choice would be what shows up in the box score.
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  #683  
Old 04-08-19, 10:49 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
With regards to the call....

R2 is out immediately for the Interference and if in the judgment of the umpire the interference prevented another putout to be completed, then either the batter or another runner can be declared out.

From what you describe in this play, two outs could have been declared on this... One for the INT by the runner and another for the subsequent out at second base or on the batter-runner.

With regards to scoring....

The NFHS does not have a published standard for scoring. Typically they use the guidelines set by Official Baseball Rules. In this case you would not credit the batter with a hit. Instead, a fielder's choice would be what shows up in the box score.
Thank you.

Ultimately the call was correct at first, until the umpires called the 'league office' who came to the diamond, was told what happened, and switched the call.
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  #684  
Old 04-08-19, 10:51 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Thank you.

Ultimately the call was correct at first, until the umpires called the 'league office' who came to the diamond, was told what happened, and switched the call.
How did R2 interfere?
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  #685  
Old 04-08-19, 11:55 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
How did R2 interfere?
As the ball was being fielded he jumped over the glove. It was fielded cleanly, and the fielder may, or may not, have tagged the runner as it was hard to tell and the umpires weren't very clear on their calls.


Can he do a delayed dead ball in that instance to see what played out because, as I stated, it was fielded cleanly
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  #686  
Old 04-08-19, 11:04 PM
serpico serpico is offline
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Runners on 1st and 3rd, no outs. Fly ball caught by right fielder, who fires home to get the runner, who tagged up at 3rd. The runner is safe, and the ball trickles away from the catcher and is picked up by the pitcher. The defensive team believes the runner on 3rd left too early, so the pitcher strolls directly over to 3rd and tags the base. The home plate umpire gives the safe sign.

Two questions:

1) Is this a proper appeal, or does the pitcher need to toe the rubber, step off, and then either throw to 3rd or touch 3rd himself?
2) What is the proper mechanic here for the umpire? Is this the home plate umpire’s call, and if so, how can he see both the catch and when the runner tags? It was a two-man crew.
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  #687  
Old 04-08-19, 11:42 PM
CedarBuck92 CedarBuck92 is offline
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Our coach has been told twice this year that if he did not shut up then he would be fined. Is there any mechanism in place to fine coaches? and if so is this something an umpire can do?
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  #688  
Old 04-09-19, 07:35 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by CedarBuck92 View Post
Our coach has been told twice this year that if he did not shut up then he would be fined. Is there any mechanism in place to fine coaches? and if so is this something an umpire can do?
Umpires don't impose penalties outside the scope of the rules.

Coach needs to address the comments with the assigner.
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  #689  
Old 04-09-19, 08:22 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by serpico View Post
Runners on 1st and 3rd, no outs. Fly ball caught by right fielder, who fires home to get the runner, who tagged up at 3rd. The runner is safe, and the ball trickles away from the catcher and is picked up by the pitcher. The defensive team believes the runner on 3rd left too early, so the pitcher strolls directly over to 3rd and tags the base. The home plate umpire gives the safe sign.

Two questions:

1) Is this a proper appeal, or does the pitcher need to toe the rubber, step off, and then either throw to 3rd or touch 3rd himself?
2) What is the proper mechanic here for the umpire? Is this the home plate umpire’s call, and if so, how can he see both the catch and when the runner tags? It was a two-man crew.
There are both live and dead ball appeals available to teams under NFHS rules.

Live Ball -- An appeal may be made during a live ball by any fielder in possession of the ball touching the base missed or left too soon on a caught fly ball, or by tagging the runner committing the violation if he is still on the playing field. (please note that this touching of the base must be an intentional act. Inadvertently touching the base while in possession of the ball is not considered an appeal)

Dead Ball -- A dead-ball appeal may be made...

1) Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called, a coach or any defensive player, with or without the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. The administering umpire should then make a decision on the play.

2) If the ball has gone out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base-running responsibilities before the dead-ball appeal can be made.

When you have an appeal situation, it's best for the umpire to declare that time is out when the play is over and rule on the impending appeal. (the cleanest and easiest way under NFHS rules)

With regards to 'who's watching who"?..... In a two umpire system the home plate umpire has the responsibility for watching R3 in this play and the base umpire has the responsibility for ruling Catch/No Catch. Depending where the ball is in relation to the foul line, the home plate umpire could also the responsibility for Fair/Foul, Catch/No Catch, and R3 retouching or leaving the base too soon. It's a hole in the mechanics that can only be remedied by adding another umpire(s)
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  #690  
Old 04-09-19, 08:39 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CedarBuck92 View Post
Our coach has been told twice this year that if he did not shut up then he would be fined. Is there any mechanism in place to fine coaches? and if so is this something an umpire can do?
Is this at the HS level?

I know at some of these youth tournaments, it is written in the rules that a coach will be fined for arguing. If that is in the tourney rules then I would say it is legit.

What I think should happen though is the umpire should report his findings to the tournament director and let him make the decision to take the emotion out of the situation.
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