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  #2641  
Old 08-06-17, 09:47 PM
14Red 14Red is offline
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The only good thing that could come from today's thrashing is maybe they get rid of the silly Game of Thrones promotion days...
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  #2642  
Old 08-06-17, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
That's the most accurate thing you've put on here in awhile...
What have I said that was inaccurate?
  #2643  
Old 08-07-17, 04:44 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
The only good thing that could come from today's thrashing is maybe they get rid of the silly Game of Thrones promotion days...
wut? Nerds!!!


That's^ pathetic.

Amazed it goes on for days
  #2644  
Old 08-07-17, 07:16 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
You think WAR is accurate in predicting wins?


Joey Votto has a 4.5 WAR this season.... if you think he is only worth 4 to 5 wins more than a replacement (ie. Minor leaguer) then you are an absolute moron!
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
You really aren't capable of conversing with out getting so frustrated that you feel the need to call others names, are you?
The irony.

I think WAR is a good starting point. They definitely would have contended if they didn't have Choo and I have something to back my statement. You, on the other hand, do not.
  #2645  
Old 08-07-17, 07:17 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
I haven't moved them at all.

Stubbs was the CF/leadoff that Choo replaced. Why wouldn't they be compared?
Yes you are. You said Cozart was better, I proved that wrong, you started talking about something completely different.

Why wouldn't you compare the same years? Ya know like 2012 vs. 2012 and 2013 vs. 2013?
  #2646  
Old 08-07-17, 07:21 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
I'm guessing the Red Sox are going with a young player with a high ceiling because they have no options. But again, I'm not concerned with them.

Not sure I'd call the Red Sox successful. They've been up and down like most organizations, and they have a bigger checkbook than most.
You would guess wrong. They have options.

Of course you wouldn't. Since 2007: 96 wins 1st place in division won the World Series, 95 wins lose in the ALCS, 95 wins lost in the ALDS, 89 wins, 90 wins, 69 wins, 97 wins 1 place division won World Series, 71 wins, 78 wins, 93 wins lost int he ALDS, currently with 63 wins 14 games over .500 and 1st in the division. What have the Reds done since 2007?
  #2647  
Old 08-07-17, 08:05 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
The irony.

I think WAR is a good starting point. They definitely would have contended if they didn't have Choo and I have something to back my statement. You, on the other hand, do not.
Of course they would have contended, they had excellent starting pitching. 2012 had a glaring hole in CF. Choo filled that hole.
Choo had an amazing year in 2013 for the Reds.
Would you have preferred Drew Stubbs and his .213 average leading off?
  #2648  
Old 08-07-17, 08:17 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Yes you are. You said Cozart was better, I proved that wrong, you started talking about something completely different.

Why wouldn't you compare the same years? Ya know like 2012 vs. 2012 and 2013 vs. 2013?
You didn't prove anything of the sort.

I compared the two starting CF for the Reds in back to back seasons. The difference is very Stark.
  #2649  
Old 08-07-17, 08:21 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Of course they would have contended, they had excellent starting pitching. 2012 had a glaring hole in CF. Choo filled that hole.
Choo had an amazing year in 2013 for the Reds.
Would you have preferred Drew Stubbs and his .213 average leading off?
I agree. The Reds should have had a better eye for talent and traded Cozart and Stubbs for Choo, brought Didi up.
  #2650  
Old 08-07-17, 08:21 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
You didn't prove anything of the sort.

I compared the two starting CF for the Reds in back to back seasons. The difference is very Stark.
I most certainly did. Even if I didn't, it doesn't change the fact you started talking about something completely different. You moved the goalposts.

You compared 2 different years. Why wouldn't you compare the same years?
  #2651  
Old 08-07-17, 08:25 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
Are you going to answer the question? I notice you are avoiding and dodging it.
If the measurement of success is championships then yes Boston has been very successful this century.

If you're measuring success as talent evaluations then Boston has failed many times. They have thrown the Reds entire annual payroll at failed players over the years. Fortunately for them they have an extra $100M in their annual budget to cover those mistakes.
  #2652  
Old 08-07-17, 08:46 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Of course they would have contended, they had excellent starting pitching. 2012 had a glaring hole in CF. Choo filled that hole.
Choo had an amazing year in 2013 for the Reds.
Would you have preferred Drew Stubbs and his .213 average leading off?
Choo had an amazing offensive year, was misplaced in centerfield and Billy was on his way. Choo became very, very expensive after the '13 season.
  #2653  
Old 08-07-17, 08:49 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
If the measurement of success is championships then yes Boston has been very successful this century.

If you're measuring success as talent evaluations then Boston has failed many times. They have thrown the Reds entire annual payroll at failed players over the years. Fortunately for them they have an extra $100M in their annual budget to cover those mistakes.
The Red Sox paid Pablo Sandoval $50 mill NOT to play for them any more. Very few pro baseball teams have this luxury. Not an excuse for teams to manage their roster poorly, but just a nice safety net for those who have it.
  #2654  
Old 08-07-17, 09:05 AM
Indiandad Indiandad is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I agree. The Reds should have had a better eye for talent and traded Cozart and Stubbs for Choo, brought Didi up.
Do you know that the trade would have happened with Cozart replacing Didi?
  #2655  
Old 08-07-17, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Choo had an amazing offensive year, was misplaced in centerfield and Billy was on his way. Choo became very, very expensive after the '13 season.
Choo was never supposed to be a long term piece so it is irrelevant that he became expensive after the season.
The Reds had a short window and they went for it. Unfortunately they "dropped the ball".
  #2656  
Old 08-07-17, 09:12 AM
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If Including Cozart would have killed that deal, the Reds shouldn't have made the trade.
  #2657  
Old 08-07-17, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Choo was never supposed to be a long term piece so it is irrelevant that he became expensive after the season.
The Reds had a short window and they went for it. Unfortunately they "dropped the ball".
I know, he was a stop gap to Billy, and a group of young pitchers were about to get paid. There are no guarantees for contenders. Lots of teams "drop the ball" of course it's told to them in hindsight.
  #2658  
Old 08-07-17, 10:20 AM
14Red 14Red is offline
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Two big plays in yesterday's game.
1. Bottom of one, bases loaded, 0 out. Winker hits into a 3-2 DP and the Reds don't score more than 3 in the first.
2. Top 2, 3-0, runners on 1st and 3rd for the Cards. Wong hits a chopper that goes over Votto's head and down the line. If that ball is a foot or two down, it's a DP, 3-1 Reds, 2 on 0 out. It's not, the Cards get back to back first pitch doubles and go up 4-3 and never look back.

I say this not because I'm making excuses for Homer, but just to show that the margin of success and failure is so thin. The metrics of yesterday was that Homer seemed to be physically fine. His fastball tipped 95MPH, his other pitches seemed fine, although I think he's still struggling with spotting most of his pitches.
There seems to be this feeling that the Reds can just cut Bailey or DFA him and move on. If they were the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox or another team with a huge payroll, then yes, they could. But the Reds can't owe a player a minimum of $50 mill over the next 3 years and just let him walk. That's not possible. So if he's healthy, he's pitching.
  #2659  
Old 08-07-17, 10:35 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Do you know that the trade would have happened with Cozart replacing Didi?
I don't know that. I'm just basing it according to you. You say Cozart is so much better than Didi, why wouldn't the Dbacks want him?

I noticed you didn't answer my Stubbs/Choo question though. Why wouldn't you compare 2012 vs. 2012 and 2013 vs 2013?
  #2660  
Old 08-07-17, 10:38 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
If Including Cozart would have killed that deal, the Reds shouldn't have made the trade.
Yup. The Reds chose wrong. For some reason IndianDad and 14Red can't admit the Reds make mistakes.
  #2661  
Old 08-07-17, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Two big plays in yesterday's game.
1. Bottom of one, bases loaded, 0 out. Winker hits into a 3-2 DP and the Reds don't score more than 3 in the first.
2. Top 2, 3-0, runners on 1st and 3rd for the Cards. Wong hits a chopper that goes over Votto's head and down the line. If that ball is a foot or two down, it's a DP, 3-1 Reds, 2 on 0 out. It's not, the Cards get back to back first pitch doubles and go up 4-3 and never look back.

I say this not because I'm making excuses for Homer, but just to show that the margin of success and failure is so thin. The metrics of yesterday was that Homer seemed to be physically fine. His fastball tipped 95MPH, his other pitches seemed fine, although I think he's still struggling with spotting most of his pitches.
There seems to be this feeling that the Reds can just cut Bailey or DFA him and move on. If they were the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox or another team with a huge payroll, then yes, they could. But the Reds can't owe a player a minimum of $50 mill over the next 3 years and just let him walk. That's not possible. So if he's healthy, he's pitching.
Glad to hear Homer pitched great and just got some bad luck in giving up 10 earned runs in 4 innings or whatever. Nice to know we will be able to count on him for years to come. Good post 14red!
  #2662  
Old 08-07-17, 10:49 AM
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ENOUGH with the Cozart vs. Didi trade decision in 2012. Revisionist history is easy.

In 2012:
Didi was an unproven minor leaguer hitting about .260 for career, with little power (max 7 HR in a season). He had potential, but...

Cozart had a better glove and 15 MLB HR in 2012. The Reds were still trying to win division titles and make playoffs. He was 26 years old at the time.

Saying they should have kept Didi is easy in 2017. In 2012 the decision was pretty easy to keep Cozart, based on the situation at that time.

Let's move on...
  #2663  
Old 08-07-17, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
I say this not because I'm making excuses for Homer, but just to show that the margin of success and failure is so thin. The metrics of yesterday was that Homer seemed to be physically fine. His fastball tipped 95MPH, his other pitches seemed fine, although I think he's still struggling with spotting most of his pitches.
95 is the new 85. If your fastball is 95, straight as a string, and over the heart of the plate, you get Sunday's results. No movement + poor location = useless pitcher.

Before you tell me "he's pitching if he's healthy" for the 100th time, I know that. Everyone understands that. But we don't have to be happy about it. If we could trade him for a box of Double Bubble and be rid of his contract, I'd say do it. Same for Mesoraco. Contracts like that the rebuild.
  #2664  
Old 08-07-17, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 14Red View Post
Two big plays in yesterday's game.
1. Bottom of one, bases loaded, 0 out. Winker hits into a 3-2 DP and the Reds don't score more than 3 in the first.
2. Top 2, 3-0, runners on 1st and 3rd for the Cards. Wong hits a chopper that goes over Votto's head and down the line. If that ball is a foot or two down, it's a DP, 3-1 Reds, 2 on 0 out. It's not, the Cards get back to back first pitch doubles and go up 4-3 and never look back.

I say this not because I'm making excuses for Homer, but just to show that the margin of success and failure is so thin. The metrics of yesterday was that Homer seemed to be physically fine. His fastball tipped 95MPH, his other pitches seemed fine, although I think he's still struggling with spotting most of his pitches.
There seems to be this feeling that the Reds can just cut Bailey or DFA him and move on. If they were the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox or another team with a huge payroll, then yes, they could. But the Reds can't owe a player a minimum of $50 mill over the next 3 years and just let him walk. That's not possible. So if he's healthy, he's pitching.
Speaking of beating a dead horse.
  #2665  
Old 08-07-17, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
I don't know that. I'm just basing it according to you. You say Cozart is so much better than Didi, why wouldn't the Dbacks want him?

I noticed you didn't answer my Stubbs/Choo question though. Why wouldn't you compare 2012 vs. 2012 and 2013 vs 2013?
My guess is that the Reds offered one or the other. The Diamondbacks were rebuilding and went with the younger SS.

I did answer your question. Stubbs was the REDS center fielder in 2012 and Choo was in 2013. It was a comparison of one player replacing another and the primary reason Gregorious was traded.
  #2666  
Old 08-07-17, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by wolves82 View Post
ENOUGH with the Cozart vs. Didi trade decision in 2012. Revisionist history is easy.

In 2012:
Didi was an unproven minor leaguer hitting about .260 for career, with little power (max 7 HR in a season). He had potential, but...

Cozart had a better glove and 15 MLB HR in 2012. The Reds were still trying to win division titles and make playoffs. He was 26 years old at the time.

Saying they should have kept Didi is easy in 2017. In 2012 the decision was pretty easy to keep Cozart, based on the situation at that time.

Let's move on...
Exactly.
  #2667  
Old 08-07-17, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by eastside_purple View Post
So you think Votto's real WAR is 12 right now? And without him, they would be worse than the 2013 Astros?
On this team, this year, Votto is probably worth 12 wins right now. The pitching is so horrendous that without Votto this Reds team may be the worst in MLB history.
  #2668  
Old 08-07-17, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
My guess is that the Reds offered one or the other. The Diamondbacks were rebuilding and went with the younger SS.

I did answer your question. Stubbs was the REDS center fielder in 2012 and Choo was in 2013. It was a comparison of one player replacing another and the primary reason Gregorious was traded.
So the Reds made a bad trade and should have only offered Cozart. Simple enough.

Well that is just utterly asinine. Compare the same years. The Reds weren't going to get the exact same stat line from Stubbs in 2013 as they were in 2012.
  #2669  
Old 08-07-17, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Indiandad View Post
Exactly.
Exactly what? If you actually go back, you'll see I was responding to 14red's challenge to find a better value/production proposition than Cozart. I just pointed out that Didi was a better value, slightly better batting statistics, pretty equal fielding, 4 yrs younger and far better upside than Cozart....and also noted the Reds made a bad trade choosing Cozart over him for those very reasons.
  #2670  
Old 08-07-17, 12:49 PM
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Glad to hear Homer pitched great and just got some bad luck in giving up 10 earned runs in 4 innings or whatever. Nice to know we will be able to count on him for years to come. Good post 14red!
Not sure it's going to be "counting" on him, but he'll be on the mound buddy, like it or not.

Luck does have something to do with it. Not always but sometimes. Just pointing out the differences.
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