Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority  

Go Back   Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority > Boys HS Sports > Football

Hello Guest!
Take a minute to register, It's 100% FREE! What are you waiting for?
Register Now
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-28-14, 08:18 AM
jojo22 jojo22 is offline
Freshman
 
Join Date: 03-18-14
Posts: 12
jojo22 is on a distinguished road
Competitive Balance - Catholic Feeder Schools

When will we find out which feeder school has been selected by each private/Catholic high school?

Any thoughts? What will be the feeder school for Ignatius, Eds, St. X, Moeller, etc?

Will the feeder school have a choice whether they will allow themselves to be designated as such?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 05-28-14, 08:24 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 04-04-12
Location: Rayen Stadium
Posts: 9,405
EastYoungstown will become famous soon enough
Does it have to be only one? If not, how many can there be?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-28-14, 08:32 AM
Bonard714 Bonard714 is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 01-25-12
Posts: 110
Bonard714 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo22 View Post
When will we find out which feeder school has been selected by each private/Catholic high school?

Any thoughts? What will be the feeder school for Ignatius, Eds, St. X, Moeller, etc?

Will the feeder school have a choice whether they will allow themselves to be designated as such?
I do not know the answers, but it seems the questions will not matter for the schools named since they will always be D-1 regardless of multipliers.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-28-14, 08:37 AM
thePITman thePITman is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 11-06-06
Location: Wayne County, Ohio
Posts: 9,284
thePITman is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonard714 View Post
I do not know the answers, but it seems the questions will not matter for the schools named since they will always be D-1 regardless of multipliers.
What this guy said. It will really matter when we start talking about Mooney, Ursuline, SVSM, Hoban, Newark Catholic, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-28-14, 09:18 AM
fish82 fish82 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 09-16-05
Location: Secure
Posts: 11,698
fish82 will become famous soon enoughfish82 will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Does it have to be only one? If not, how many can there be?
From what I've read, it looks like only one....which pretty much proves this proposal to be the "stick it to them" solution that people wanted.

If you want to add a multiplier to kids that come from public Jr. High, I'm fine with that. But if a kid has gone to Catholic school since Kindergarten, he/she shouldn't have a multiplier attached...regardless of where the school is located.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-28-14, 09:20 AM
the123kidz the123kidz is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 10-21-10
Posts: 1,109
the123kidz is on a distinguished road
The majority of students at CVCA come from Valley Christian, Chapel Hill Christian, Parma Heights Christian and Medina Christian that along with students that are home schooled make up a large portion of each class. Will they have just 1 school designated a feeder?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-28-14, 09:26 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 04-04-12
Location: Rayen Stadium
Posts: 9,405
EastYoungstown will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by the123kidz View Post
The majority of students at CVCA come from Valley Christian, Chapel Hill Christian, Parma Heights Christian and Medina Christian that along with students that are home schooled make up a large portion of each class. Will they have just 1 school designated a feeder?
As I mentioned above, that really is the big question.

I think a lot of schools have more than 1 feeder.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-28-14, 09:53 AM
lc5397 lc5397 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-30-10
Posts: 2,504
lc5397 is on a distinguished road
If each school is only allowed one feeder, there is going to be problems. Most private schools are getting students from 6-12 schools. Like it was already mentioned, it doesn't matter to the big DI privates either way. I'm assuming a Lake Catholic will designate St. Mary's Mentor or St. Gabriel in Concord as their feeder (which has been the bigger pull based on recent stats) but I'm guessing neither of those schools is more than 10-15% of their student body.

They should just make it that any kid coming from a private grade/middle school going to a private high school shouldn't count in this formula. If my kid goes to Catholic school K-8 and then goes to a Catholic high school then he/she shouldn't be counted against that school because they aren't from the designated feeder. It shows a complete lack of understanding of how Catholic schools function or was designed to be malicious in nature.

It's like making public schools with more than one middle school being forced to only pick one of those schools as a feeder and all the rest count against the competitive balance formula.

It's a long time until 2016. I expect the feeder designation and other specifics of this proposal to be reviewed before implementation.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-28-14, 10:04 AM
BHSspartans13 BHSspartans13 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 09-27-06
Posts: 3,273
BHSspartans13 is on a distinguished road
This is a really BS idea to only have 1 feeder.

My guess is Mooney takes St. Charles in Boardman and Ursuline takes St. Christine's on the southwest side of Youngstown, but there are numerous other feeder schools, especially for Mooney. In fact, you could argue that the deck is stacked more against Mooney than Ursuline if not for the simple fact that there are more Catholic elementary schools serving areas that kids typically go to Mooney than for Ursuline, now made worse by the fact that the only remaining Catholic elementary school in Austintown closed.


Can the feeders be designated by sport? As an aside, Ursuline might be better off taking St. Joseph the Provider in Brier Hill as their feeder for football...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-28-14, 10:08 AM
Summa Summa is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 03-30-08
Posts: 1,791
Summa is on a distinguished road
The history of the student's school enrollment is a factor. If a kid has been in Catholic, Christian or other private schools for their entire schooling they will be multiplied less or not at all especially if that feeder traditionally feeds into a certain private high school. The OHSAA had to concede to this to avoid the countless lawsuits that would result if they punished a private school kid who has never been in the public school system. Private schools that get a lot of 9th graders from public middle schools will be the only ones really significantly effected by this. All in all, most schools will have to be reasonably close to the divisional cutoffs to move up a division under this.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-28-14, 11:05 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 05-11-07
Posts: 12,773
adselder09 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Does it have to be only one? If not, how many can there be?
From the releases I've read the proposal is set up like this:

- Schools will only be able to choose one feeder
- Students from the feeder will be multiplied by 0, in other words omitted from the count.
- Students from other Catholic schools from 7th grade or earlier will be multiplied by 1, counting only once.
- Students from Catholic schools who join after the 7th grade or from public schools will be multiplied by the sport specific multiplier, for football it's 2 (right now).

Likewise the same applies for public schools:

- Schools have their "feeder" or junior high/middle school and they will be multiplied by 0.
- Students from other middle schools from 7th grade or earlier will be multiplied by 1.
- Students from middle schools joined after 7th grade or from private schools will be multiplied by the sport specific multiplier, which is 2.

The wording also states that only they will only need to count for sport specific teams, so I guess the multiplier additions per team will be added to the already counted enrollment.
So here's an example:
500 enrollment
15 kids from designated feeder playing football X 0 = 0
25 kids from other Catholic schools X 1 = 25
15 kids from outside Catholic schools X 2 = 30

So this schools enrollment number for football would be 555
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-28-14, 11:13 AM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 11-03-02
Location: They call me ThreadKiller
Posts: 18,318
Oil Filter is an unknown quantity at this point
This is stupid; there are quite a few public districts with more than one middle school feeding one high school.

A solution: The parish schools should reorganize themselves to something along the lines of The Akron Catholic School St. Bob Campus, The Akron Catholic School St. Bill Campus, etc. Administratively, they are one school -- and count as one feeder.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-28-14, 11:16 AM
Baron Von Steuben's Avatar
Baron Von Steuben Baron Von Steuben is offline
Grand Inquisitor
 
Join Date: 11-30-06
Location: Wintersville, Ohio
Posts: 5,919
Baron Von Steuben is on a distinguished road
This seems to impact schools from large metro areas.

In Steubenville, Catholic Central's feeder (Bishop John King Mussio Junior High- 7th/8th grade) is in a section of Catholic Central High School.

Steubenville High School only has one feeder (Harding Middle School) school in it's boundaries.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-28-14, 11:22 AM
Con_Alma Con_Alma is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 02-24-06
Posts: 1,748
Con_Alma is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by jojo22 View Post
...

What will be the feeder school for Ignatius, Eds, St. X, Moeller, etc?

...
If you're a big D 1 school does it really matter?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-28-14, 11:24 AM
nc green wave nc green wave is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 03-26-07
Posts: 146
nc green wave is on a distinguished road
There are two Catholic grade schools in Newark (St. Francis and Blessed Sacrament). It makes no sense to me that only one of these can be chosen as the feeder school.

NC gets kids from St. Vincent in Mt. Vernon due to the closure of the Catholic high school there many years ago.

NC also gets kids from Pataskala area that are St. Pius students.

In these cases above, NC is the closest Catholic high school option. That is another factor that should be considered.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-28-14, 11:37 AM
thePITman thePITman is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 11-06-06
Location: Wayne County, Ohio
Posts: 9,284
thePITman is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by the123kidz View Post
The majority of students at CVCA come from Valley Christian, Chapel Hill Christian, Parma Heights Christian and Medina Christian that along with students that are home schooled make up a large portion of each class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lc5397 View Post
If each school is only allowed one feeder, there is going to be problems. Most private schools are getting students from 6-12 schools.
Not that it is right or wrong, but I think you guys just made the case for the driving purpose behind Competitive Balance.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-28-14, 11:44 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 05-11-07
Posts: 12,773
adselder09 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by nc green wave View Post
In these cases above, NC is the closest Catholic high school option. That is another factor that should be considered.
This should definitely be considered. I know it is considered for kids who come from bordering states and allows them to plays sports.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this is only for Varsity numbers not program numbers correct? If so, I wonder if some of the schools who are able to limit roster size will do so. By limiting roster size I mean not adding freshmen or sometimes sophomores to the Varsity roster so as not to inflate their numbers. This obviously won't apply to everyone but the schools with big numbers for football.

And again that won't matter for big D-1 schools who will stay D-1 no matter what.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-28-14, 11:51 AM
Oil Filter Oil Filter is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 11-03-02
Location: They call me ThreadKiller
Posts: 18,318
Oil Filter is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by thePITman View Post
Not that it is right or wrong, but I think you guys just made the case for the driving purpose behind Competitive Balance.
I dunno. Consider Massillon: they used to have three Catholic parish schools; they're down to two. The remaining two have consolidated many aspects of their administration; this may be the only thing that keeps a second school from closing. One school has (IIRC) about 180 kids K-8; the other is a little larger. Between the two, that may be 50 kids per grade. Quite a few of them will go to public high schools. And yet, at most one of these schools can be the designated feeder school to the only Catholic high school in western Stark County. Think about what that means in the real world: OHSAA is saying that CCC is entitled to maybe 15 "legitimate" boys in their freshman class.

I'd love to hear an argument to support that as being a fair -- or even realistic -- solution.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-28-14, 11:51 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 05-11-07
Posts: 12,773
adselder09 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by thePITman View Post
Not that it is right or wrong, but I think you guys just made the case for the driving purpose behind Competitive Balance.
Many schools NEED to have multiple schools to draw from otherwise they will go out of business. They need students and tuition $$$ to keep the doors open. Unfortunately some have toed the line when it comes to the rules and it's burnt everyone else.

There are many more students in a private school than there are athletes, much like many public schools. This is especially true the bigger the school is, but people aren't looking at Merit Scholars from private schools and saying that's more than their share, it's only athletics.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-28-14, 11:52 AM
lc5397 lc5397 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-30-10
Posts: 2,504
lc5397 is on a distinguished road
NO, that's does not make the "case" for this proposal. Only somebody with no understanding of the parochial school system would make that kind of statement. Most Catholic schools draw from 6-12 Catholic grade schools because all of the Catholic grade schools are very small and parish based. Most Catholic grade schools have 20-40 kids per grade (coed), not they 200-500 of many public middle schools.

As somebody else suggested, the parochial grade schools should consider reorganizing on paper where they all operate as one "school" with different campuses. That way any kid coming from any diocesan grade school is coming from "one" feeder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thePITman View Post
Not that it is right or wrong, but I think you guys just made the case for the driving purpose behind Competitive Balance.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-28-14, 12:09 PM
thePITman thePITman is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 11-06-06
Location: Wayne County, Ohio
Posts: 9,284
thePITman is on a distinguished road
Could one of these "middle schools" be a "feeder school" for more than 1 high school?

If a feeder school could only be a designated feeder school for 1 high school, then it doesn't matter as much how many "feeder schools" a given high school has. But if a feeder school can serve that "role" for more than 1 high school, then it most definitely makes a difference.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-28-14, 12:19 PM
Cruiseman Cruiseman is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 05-16-11
Posts: 699
Cruiseman is an unknown quantity at this point
Quote:
Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
This should definitely be considered. I know it is considered for kids who come from bordering states and allows them to plays sports.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this is only for Varsity numbers not program numbers correct? If so, I wonder if some of the schools who are able to limit roster size will do so. By limiting roster size I mean not adding freshmen or sometimes sophomores to the Varsity roster so as not to inflate their numbers. This obviously won't apply to everyone but the schools with big numbers for football.

And again that won't matter for big D-1 schools who will stay D-1 no matter what.
The count is to be taken at all levels. Freshmen, JV & Varsity.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-28-14, 12:21 PM
Ahab Ahab is offline
Freshman
 
Join Date: 03-20-14
Posts: 22
Ahab is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Summa View Post
The history of the student's school enrollment is a factor. If a kid has been in Catholic, Christian or other private schools for their entire schooling they will be multiplied less or not at all especially if that feeder traditionally feeds into a certain private high school. The OHSAA had to concede to this to avoid the countless lawsuits that would result if they punished a private school kid who has never been in the public school system. Private schools that get a lot of 9th graders from public middle schools will be the only ones really significantly effected by this. All in all, most schools will have to be reasonably close to the divisional cutoffs to move up a division under this.
Please explain the grounds for "countless lawsuits." Schools are all members of the OHSAA and the membership voted on the rules. If a school does not like the rules, it can withdraw its membership and no longer have to play by them. Of course, schools that do that no longer can play for state titles, either.

Also, the notion of "punished" is laughable. Are they being sent to their room without dinner? Put in timeout? How are they being punished? High school sports are a privilege, not a right. To use a phrase floating around these days, perhaps some private school people need to check their privilege.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-28-14, 12:32 PM
lc5397 lc5397 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-30-10
Posts: 2,504
lc5397 is on a distinguished road
The grounds are that rules were created to specifically target a minority of schools that don't apply to the membership as a whole.

I keep thinking about a school like Holy Name in the Cleveland area when trying to put competitive balance into context. It's your basic Diocesan high school. They've been losing Catholic school kids from their traditional feeders as parochial schools have closed and they've lost kids to the DI Catholics (Eds and Ignatius). Now they're going to get dinged again for having kids from multiple feeder schools. They're already barely competitive in a lot of sports, let alone a juggernaut. And the reality is the majority of Catholic schools are more like Holy Name than they are SVSM or Ursuline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahab View Post
Please explain the grounds for "countless lawsuits."
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-28-14, 12:33 PM
Journey Journey is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 11-11-09
Posts: 1,601
Journey is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by thePITman View Post
Not that it is right or wrong, but I think you guys just made the case for the driving purpose behind Competitive Balance.
They're just trying to sort out how much of their competitive advantage will now be taken into account for divisional placement.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-28-14, 12:34 PM
lc5397 lc5397 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-30-10
Posts: 2,504
lc5397 is on a distinguished road
This is a really good post.

"Think about what that means in the real world: OHSAA is saying that CCC is entitled to maybe 15 "legitimate" boys in their freshman class."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Filter View Post
I dunno. Consider Massillon: they used to have three Catholic parish schools; they're down to two. The remaining two have consolidated many aspects of their administration; this may be the only thing that keeps a second school from closing. One school has (IIRC) about 180 kids K-8; the other is a little larger. Between the two, that may be 50 kids per grade. Quite a few of them will go to public high schools. And yet, at most one of these schools can be the designated feeder school to the only Catholic high school in western Stark County. Think about what that means in the real world: OHSAA is saying that CCC is entitled to maybe 15 "legitimate" boys in their freshman class.

I'd love to hear an argument to support that as being a fair -- or even realistic -- solution.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-28-14, 12:41 PM
Ahab Ahab is offline
Freshman
 
Join Date: 03-20-14
Posts: 22
Ahab is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by lc5397 View Post
The grounds are that rules were created to specifically target a minority of schools that don't apply to the membership as a whole.

I keep thinking about a school like Holy Name in the Cleveland area when trying to put competitive balance into context. It's your basic Diocesan high school. They've been losing Catholic school kids from their traditional feeders as parochial schools have closed and they've lost kids to the DI Catholics (Eds and Ignatius). Now they're going to get dinged again for having kids from multiple feeder schools. They're already barely competitive in a lot of sports, let alone a juggernaut. And the reality is the majority of Catholic schools are more like Holy Name than they are SVSM or Ursuline.
What schools don't the rules apply to?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-28-14, 12:42 PM
The Dock The Dock is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-05-10
Location: Satriale's Pork Store
Posts: 1,011
The Dock is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by nc green wave View Post
There are two Catholic grade schools in Newark (St. Francis and Blessed Sacrament). It makes no sense to me that only one of these can be chosen as the feeder school.

NC gets kids from St. Vincent in Mt. Vernon due to the closure of the Catholic high school there many years ago.

NC also gets kids from Pataskala area that are St. Pius students.

In these cases above, NC is the closest Catholic high school option. That is another factor that should be considered.
Similar situation for Fisher Catholic: one k-8 feeder in Lancaster, two in Perry County as well as some families that come from the Catholic parish in Pickerington but sent their kids to the Catholic grade school in Reynoldsburg. No win situation.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-28-14, 12:43 PM
lc5397 lc5397 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 08-30-10
Posts: 2,504
lc5397 is on a distinguished road
It doesn't apply to Division 1.

It doesn't apply to public schools.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-28-14, 12:52 PM
arizonawildcat arizonawildcat is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 02-13-09
Posts: 6,688
arizonawildcat will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by lc5397 View Post
It doesn't apply to Division 1.

It doesn't apply to public schools.
I wish it did only to see who OSHAA would designate as the feeder schools for Ed's Ignatius.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:48 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Registration Booster - Powered By Dirt RIF CustUmz