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  #31  
Old 04-14-19, 08:27 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
I've coached for over 20 years and never believed in harping on officials, refs, or umpires. It is counter-productive and we are all human and make mistakes.

With that said my oldest boy got into officiating while still in HS and at the age of 23 is a varsity basketball official. Being in law school he hustles every weekend working those cesspool all day tournaments (gets in 8 games at $25 a game on a Saturday). A couple weekends ago at a large tournament for 4th, 5th, & 6th grade boys and girls basketball half of the officials walked off the court and left. Why? Because the fans were absolutely brutal.

I firmly believe the treatment of officials is directly correlated to the ever increasing false belief that everyone's child is very special and going to go play multiple pro sports some day. It is like being a cop now-a-days. The pay does not justify the scrutiny.
Kudos to the officials who walked out. Seriously. To the ones who didn't, shame on them. Sadly there are too many officials willing to sell their souls to the devil.

That's what it's going to take for fans and these tournament directors, who don't want to pay the officials fairly and/or deal with unruly behavior, to put up or shut up. The quickest way to get people's attention is when little Johnnie doesn't get to play.

I'm sure the "thin skin" or "it's about the kids" nonsense was/will be thrown around. Shrug. Once these out-of-control coaches and parents start having thicker skin in the face of actual or perceived (usually perceived) officiating incompetence, then we can start having that conversation.

I got asked to do one of those free-for-all offseason tournaments this weekend. I respectfully declined, as has usually been the case for me for a few years now.

People can poo-poo this issue all they want and can keep passing the buck to officials, but the data is quite clear on the main reason why people are quitting. Behavior like that alluded to above is yet another example. Until those in charge of unruly stakeholders start getting the backbone to clamp down on atrocious behavior, it's not going to get better.
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  #32  
Old 04-14-19, 08:28 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by my2sense View Post
Not really. Policemen and women put their lives out there everyday. Some refs want a similar level of respect as police, military and first responders but their level of sacrifice is not even close.
So what level of respect do officials deserve?

What about teachers? After all isn't high school sports an extension of the classroom?
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  #33  
Old 04-14-19, 08:34 PM
my2sense my2sense is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
So what level of respect do officials deserve?What about teachers?
Far less than military.
Far less than police men and women.
Far less than firefighters, EMTs and first responders.
Much less than Army reserve and Red Cross
Less than parents who are on call 24/7.
Less than teachers who work 5 days a week.
Less than coaches who teach all day then coach.

Officials need to get over themselves.
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  #34  
Old 04-14-19, 08:41 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by my2sense View Post
Far less than military.
Far less than police men and women.
Far less than firefighters, EMTs and first responders.
Much less than Army reserve and Red Cross
Less than parents who are on call 24/7.
Less than teachers who work 5 days a week.
Less than coaches who teach all day then coach.


Officials need to get over themselves.
Uh, you do realize that almost every high school official works a real job at least 5 days a week, right?

You also realize that those same individuals work all day then go officiate, right?

Oh, I forgot, those facts don't fit your narrative. Figures.
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  #35  
Old 04-14-19, 08:46 PM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Originally Posted by my2sense View Post
Not really. Policemen and women put their lives out there everyday. Some refs want a similar level of respect as police, military and first responders but their level of sacrifice is not even close.
You missed the point to drive home another. Kudos.
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  #36  
Old 04-15-19, 07:30 AM
MSL MSL is offline
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Originally Posted by my2sense View Post
Far less than military.
Far less than police men and women.
Far less than firefighters, EMTs and first responders.
Much less than Army reserve and Red Cross
Less than parents who are on call 24/7.
Less than teachers who work 5 days a week.
Less than coaches who teach all day then coach.

Officials need to get over themselves.


So officials basically don't deserve any respect. Got it.

I'm actually fine with that, as long as they can yell right back at obnoxious coaches and fans without repercussions. I'm guessing that's not what you had in mind. You think your $5 admission entitles you to do and say whatever you want and no one can call you out on it.

You clearly have an ax to grind or you're just a troll. Regardless, you're an imbecile and a disgrace to high school sports.
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  #37  
Old 04-15-19, 09:06 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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I have restrained myself from commenting on here again since my first post early in the thread.

What is really intriguing to me is there are a couple posters on this thread who are proving the OP's original assertion and don't even realize it!

I still believe we have vastly different expectations of proper decorum based on sub culture groups in social settings. Put more simply, the offenders often do not recognize that they are offensive.

I have often contemplated being an official, but know I would not enjoy the disrespect tolerated today. This disrespect for authority is a broadening issue, not confined to as narrow or few as it once was.
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  #38  
Old 04-15-19, 09:46 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by oxat622 View Post
I know this is meant for me, so please point to where I said that.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
You didn't.... I mistakenly attributed the comments from another poster that I don't respond to as yours as part of the back and forth we had on this thread.
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  #39  
Old 04-15-19, 09:49 AM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
I have restrained myself from commenting on here again since my first post early in the thread.

What is really intriguing to me is there are a couple posters on this thread who are proving the OP's original assertion and don't even realize it!

I still believe we have vastly different expectations of proper decorum based on sub culture groups in social settings. Put more simply, the offenders often do not recognize that they are offensive.

I have often contemplated being an official, but know I would not enjoy the disrespect tolerated today. This disrespect for authority is a broadening issue, not confined to as narrow or few as it once was.
Welcome to the Jerry Springer generation.
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  #40  
Old 04-15-19, 09:50 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
Welcome to the Jerry Springer generation.
Except that the attacks being reported aren't staged
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  #41  
Old 04-15-19, 09:54 AM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
Kudos to the officials who walked out. Seriously. To the ones who didn't, shame on them. Sadly there are too many officials willing to sell their souls to the devil.

That's what it's going to take for fans and these tournament directors, who don't want to pay the officials fairly and/or deal with unruly behavior, to put up or shut up. The quickest way to get people's attention is when little Johnnie doesn't get to play.

I'm sure the "thin skin" or "it's about the kids" nonsense was/will be thrown around. Shrug. Once these out-of-control coaches and parents start having thicker skin in the face of actual or perceived (usually perceived) officiating incompetence, then we can start having that conversation.

I got asked to do one of those free-for-all offseason tournaments this weekend. I respectfully declined, as has usually been the case for me for a few years now.

People can poo-poo this issue all they want and can keep passing the buck to officials, but the data is quite clear on the main reason why people are quitting. Behavior like that alluded to above is yet another example. Until those in charge of unruly stakeholders start getting the backbone to clamp down on atrocious behavior, it's not going to get better.
Glad you officiate. I hope the very vocal minority does not ruin it for you as there are still the vast majority of us who "get it."

My son does games for a certain league and there is one dad from one team that simply rides the officials to no end. I finally told my son to stop the game and toss him. Make as big a spectacle of it as possible. Do not start the game until he leaves the premises. Embarrass him in front of everyone because I would bet my bottom dollar even his own fans cannot stand him.

Sure enough the guy is riding the officials and actually leaves his seat to walk down to the floor to argue with my son's partner under the basket. My son does everything I told him to do and fans actually applauded. That dude will think twice before making an of himself again.
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  #42  
Old 04-15-19, 10:14 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
Glad you officiate. I hope the very vocal minority does not ruin it for you as there are still the vast majority of us who "get it."

My son does games for a certain league and there is one dad from one team that simply rides the officials to no end. I finally told my son to stop the game and toss him. Make as big a spectacle of it as possible. Do not start the game until he leaves the premises. Embarrass him in front of everyone because I would bet my bottom dollar even his own fans cannot stand him.

Sure enough the guy is riding the officials and actually leaves his seat to walk down to the floor to argue with my son's partner under the basket. My son does everything I told him to do and fans actually applauded. That dude will think twice before making an of himself again.
Well done, dad !! (and son)

Hopefully the league will step in and reinforce what your son did. (I won't hold my breath however)
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  #43  
Old 04-15-19, 10:18 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
I still believe we have vastly different expectations of proper decorum based on sub culture groups in social settings. Put more simply, the offenders often do not recognize that they are offensive.

I have often contemplated being an official, but know I would not enjoy the disrespect tolerated today. This disrespect for authority is a broadening issue, not confined to as narrow or few as it once was.
People act like the norms of acceptable social conduct go out the window in sports. Because it's "emotional" or they "paid to be there" they use that as an excuse when they choose not to restrain themselves. Hell, just look a few posts up at our troll's opinion that officials aren't worthy of the same respect as coaches and teachers.

What's even more ironic is that officials miss calls or mess things up all the time that fans and coaches don't even bat an eye about. Often they are completely wrong or misguided in their objections.

And to be clear, I like to believe that most stakeholders are reasonable and behave themselves. Unfortunately the bad apples have spoiled the bunch. Believe me, I know plenty of officials that have no business being on the court. But the reality is that no one is replacing the baby boomers or the competent younger ones hanging it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
Glad you officiate. I hope the very vocal minority does not ruin it for you as there are still the vast majority of us who "get it."

My son does games for a certain league and there is one dad from one team that simply rides the officials to no end. I finally told my son to stop the game and toss him. Make as big a spectacle of it as possible. Do not start the game until he leaves the premises. Embarrass him in front of everyone because I would bet my bottom dollar even his own fans cannot stand him.

Sure enough the guy is riding the officials and actually leaves his seat to walk down to the floor to argue with my son's partner under the basket. My son does everything I told him to do and fans actually applauded. That dude will think twice before making an of himself again.
Fans generally don't get to me. That's not to be holier-than-thou, but a lot of it is because I gave up the "unsanctioned" offseason ball where most of these issues happen. I had my fair share of problem spectators removed from those events, to the extent that I drew the ire of some money-grubbing tournament directors and assigners (shrug). I've had fans in high school and college games removed before but in my experience the level of conduct is much better when parents know they have administrators and LEOs on watch (and the loudness of a high school game often drowns out the unruly spectators). Sadly a few bad administrators won't deal with misbehavior until the officials say something (and then they complain to the assigner that the official "needs to focus on the game and not the stands").

Good for your son and great advice from you. Sounds like he has potential and I hope he sticks with it. I completely understand working wreck and travel ball for extra cash and practice. Sadly the level of pay and support is often just not commensurate with the level of BS in those events, leading to good officials not wasting their time.
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  #44  
Old 04-15-19, 10:42 AM
sig4969 sig4969 is offline
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You do not have a game If you do not official.

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  #45  
Old 04-15-19, 10:56 AM
scbuckeye99 scbuckeye99 is offline
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If event directors weren't so spineless they wouldn't have these issues. I've run our wrestling tournament of 20 teams now for 12 years and we've never had so much of any complaints from parents, coaches, athletes, officials about anything.

Why? because we have local sheriff's deputies on hand for both days of the tournament. We pass the extra cost on to ticket cost to parents. Parents basically have a choice. Pay 10 dollars to get taken out by the sheriff's office or sit, watch, enjoy and behave. And we don't give warnings.

In South Carolina you as a coach are also charged $300.00 if you are removed from an athletic event. ($500.00 if you get tossed from the state tournament).

Believe or it not "customers" to these scholastic events actually like a tightly run ship. The 90% that are there to enjoy the event like knowing that we the event staff will quickly remove the 10% who are not there for those reasons.

I should point out some data to confirm this. When we started our event back in 2007 we had 5 teams attend. This past December it has grown to 21 teams. We now have wrestling officials in our area that request working our event because it pays well (we turn out a TON of bouts) and they know that they will be working in a safe environment.
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  #46  
Old 04-15-19, 11:20 AM
jtk jtk is offline
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in my opinion there are too many quote travel/aau teams. with the # of teams you need more officials. assignors don't have a choice to use someone they normally wouldn't use if there were less teams in these tournaments. i'm not sure why some of the teams even play. why go to an event and get beat by 50 points every game. those teams are the ones where the parents/fans are unruly. its the refs fault we are losing by 50. parents can't accept the fact that their kid isn't that good so instead of getting their kid better they want to take it out on someone and usually the ref is the easiest target.

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  #47  
Old 04-15-19, 11:57 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by jtk View Post
in my opinion there are too many quote travel/aau teams. with the # of teams you need more officials. assignors don't have a choice to use someone they normally wouldn't use if there were less teams in these tournaments. i'm not sure why some of the teams even play. why go to an event and get beat by 50 points every game. those teams are the ones where the parents/fans are unruly. its the refs fault we are losing by 50. parents can't accept the fact that their kid isn't that good so instead of getting their kid better they want to take it out on someone and usually the ref is the easiest target.

jtk
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There's some truth to this.

In my experience the people that run these tournaments couldn't care less how "good" an official is. They want cheap labor that won't create problems for them and keeps the games on schedule. If that means guys who only work subvarsity and/or wreck ball, so be it.

Officials that work college or high-level high school often create more problems than the lower-level officials at these events. Why? Because they handle business and call games closer to the rules, which generally means more calls. Whistles piss off those coaches, fans, and tournament directors more often than no-calls, regardless of correctness. (Let 'em play!!)

So at these events you're generally going to get refs that will do anything for a few bucks or refs that are moving up the ladder that are genuinely trying to get better or help out an assigner. You're not going to get the refs who are working multiple rounds in the OHSAA postseason.

Note that all of this is just based on my perspective. I'm sure other officials may see things differently.
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  #48  
Old 04-16-19, 09:41 AM
MSL MSL is offline
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Originally Posted by D4fan View Post
I have restrained myself from commenting on here again since my first post early in the thread.

What is really intriguing to me is there are a couple posters on this thread who are proving the OP's original assertion and don't even realize it!

I still believe we have vastly different expectations of proper decorum based on sub culture groups in social settings. Put more simply, the offenders often do not recognize that they are offensive.

I have often contemplated being an official, but know I would not enjoy the disrespect tolerated today. This disrespect for authority is a broadening issue, not confined to as narrow or few as it once was.
I always ask, why do people that hate officials so much still go to games? If these same people really care about the kids and think the officiating is so despicable then why are they sitting on their fat arses not doing anything to help?

The answer is, they know they wouldn't be good at it, they don't really care about the kids. They just want to scream and yell and blame everyone else for something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
What's even more ironic is that officials miss calls or mess things up all the time that fans and coaches don't even bat an eye about. Often they are completely wrong or misguided in their objections.
How many average fans actually knew that the missed double-dribble in the Final Four was a bad no-call? Very few; even the announcers didn't bat an eye until they brought Steratore on air. Then all of a sudden everyone on Twitter is an expert talking about how "they missed such an easy call" that those same fans couldn't even identify without an officiating expert's help.

Then a lot of those same fans argue that the ref should've eaten the whistle on the obvious foul on the 3-pt shot.
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  #49  
Old 04-16-19, 09:58 AM
JElder JElder is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
There's some truth to this.

In my experience the people that run these tournaments couldn't care less how "good" an official is. They want cheap labor that won't create problems for them and keeps the games on schedule. If that means guys who only work subvarsity and/or wreck ball, so be it.

Officials that work college or high-level high school often create more problems than the lower-level officials at these events. Why? Because they handle business and call games closer to the rules, which generally means more calls. Whistles piss off those coaches, fans, and tournament directors more often than no-calls, regardless of correctness. (Let 'em play!!)

So at these events you're generally going to get refs that will do anything for a few bucks or refs that are moving up the ladder that are genuinely trying to get better or help out an assigner. You're not going to get the refs who are working multiple rounds in the OHSAA postseason.

Note that all of this is just based on my perspective. I'm sure other officials may see things differently.
Everything you stated here is 100% correct.
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  #50  
Old 04-16-19, 11:20 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
There's some truth to this.

In my experience the people that run these tournaments couldn't care less how "good" an official is. They want cheap labor that won't create problems for them and keeps the games on schedule. If that means guys who only work subvarsity and/or wreck ball, so be it.

Officials that work college or high-level high school often create more problems than the lower-level officials at these events. Why? Because they handle business and call games closer to the rules, which generally means more calls. Whistles piss off those coaches, fans, and tournament directors more often than no-calls, regardless of correctness. (Let 'em play!!)

So at these events you're generally going to get refs that will do anything for a few bucks or refs that are moving up the ladder that are genuinely trying to get better or help out an assigner. You're not going to get the refs who are working multiple rounds in the OHSAA postseason.

Note that all of this is just based on my perspective. I'm sure other officials may see things differently.
Spot on.....
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  #51  
Old 04-16-19, 11:29 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by MSL View Post
I always ask, why do people that hate officials so much still go to games? If these same people really care about the kids and think the officiating is so despicable then why are they sitting on their fat arses not doing anything to help?
When not yelling at us, they are beating up the coaching staff 24/7/365 as well as the athletic directors....

All they do is make noise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MSL View Post
How many average fans actually knew that the missed double-dribble in the Final Four was a bad no-call? Very few; even the announcers didn't bat an eye until they brought Steratore on air. Then all of a sudden everyone on Twitter is an expert talking about how "they missed such an easy call" that those same fans couldn't even identify without an officiating expert's help.
When the double dribble happened, followed by the foul, my phone immediately lit up....

My officiating friends knew the double dribble was missed and knew the foul call was right on the money....

My non officiating friends who were fans of Virginia knew the foul call was right and the fans of Tech were screaming bloody murder about the foul....

None knew anything about the double dribble when it happened.

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Then a lot of those same fans argue that the ref should've eaten the whistle on the obvious foul on the 3-pt shot.
And with that you have the wonderful world of officiating.
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  #52  
Old 04-16-19, 11:51 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by JElder View Post
Everything you stated here is 100% correct.
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Spot on.....
And to be clear, I am not in any way criticizing officials who take these types of games for extra cash. If anything I'm criticizing the assigners who won't negotiate for better pay and working conditions, or won't stand up for their officials handling business, out of fear of losing the gig (there's a great group called "Ref Union" with a Facebook page that consistently calls out assigners for this practice).

However, if we had more officials willing to refuse to work under poor pay and/or conditions, the problem would get corrected. Sadly, there are always those that will sell their souls (as I noted above).

Until action like the walkout mentioned above becomes more commonplace, things won't get any better.
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  #53  
Old 04-16-19, 01:43 PM
dig it dig it is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post

When the double dribble happened, followed by the foul, my phone immediately lit up....

My officiating friends knew the double dribble was missed and knew the foul call was right on the money....

My non officiating friends who were fans of Virginia knew the foul call was right and the fans of Tech were screaming bloody murder about the foul....

None knew anything about the double dribble when it happened.



A.
The arrogance drips from this statement. Everyone at the table I was sitting at while watching the game immediately knew it was a double dribble. The instant debate at the time was whether or not a foul occurred before the double dribble, all before it was mentioned on tv. Crazy as it may sound, not one of us is an official. Many people know the game. Just because you own a striped shirt, it doesn't mean you automatically know more than someone who doesn't. This is exactly why people can get a sour taste in their mouth when it comes to refs.
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  #54  
Old 04-16-19, 01:56 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by dig it View Post
The arrogance drips from this statement. Everyone at the table I was sitting at while watching the game immediately knew it was a double dribble. The instant debate at the time was whether or not a foul occurred before the double dribble, all before it was mentioned on tv. Crazy as it may sound, not one of us is an official. Many people know the game. Just because you own a striped shirt, it doesn't mean you automatically know more than someone who doesn't. This is exactly why people can get a sour taste in their mouth when it comes to refs.
That is great for your friend group. I'm sure you're not the only ones.

But I can tell you none of my non-ref friends said anything until Steratore came on air, either. And there was nothing on my Twitter feed until after the game.

"Knowing the game" and "knowing the rules" aren't the same thing.

People thumb their nose at authority all the time. Cops, teachers, refs, etc. doing their job is never "just doing their job." It always has to come with some pretext of a "power trip" or "arrogance" or "never played the game in his life." People always think they can do someone else's job better.
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  #55  
Old 04-16-19, 02:16 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
That is great for your friend group. I'm sure you're not the only ones.

But I can tell you none of my non-ref friends said anything until Steratore came on air, either. And there was nothing on my Twitter feed until after the game.

"Knowing the game" and "knowing the rules" aren't the same thing.

People thumb their nose at authority all the time. Cops, teachers, refs, etc. doing their job is never "just doing their job." It always has to come with some pretext of a "power trip" or "arrogance" or "never played the game in his life." People always think they can do someone else's job better.
MANY people think they know the rules, but most don't.


I get onto the baseball thread about asking the ref quite often to verify and ask rules questions in season, most of times the other fans at the game didn't have a clue about.

One guy, who says he is the one people always go to and ask and started to make an arse out of himself but I was right there to tell him it was the right call. To his credit though, he googled it and found the umpire was right.


I routinely look up rules if I am not 100% certain JUUUUST to make sure!
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  #56  
Old 04-16-19, 02:23 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Originally Posted by dig it View Post
The arrogance drips from this statement. Everyone at the table I was sitting at while watching the game immediately knew it was a double dribble. The instant debate at the time was whether or not a foul occurred before the double dribble, all before it was mentioned on tv. Crazy as it may sound, not one of us is an official. Many people know the game. Just because you own a striped shirt, it doesn't mean you automatically know more than someone who doesn't. This is exactly why people can get a sour taste in their mouth when it comes to refs.
Sitting with Ed Hightower and Teddy Valentine?

Wait, Ed would only call that if it benefited Indiana, and Teddy would only call it if it went against Bobby Knight!
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  #57  
Old 04-16-19, 03:26 PM
oxat622 oxat622 is offline
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To bring it back to the original post, the coach has been arrested on felony assault charges. The Facebook page "Offside" is trying to interview the referee for an upcoming podcast.
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  #58  
Old 04-16-19, 04:30 PM
dig it dig it is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Sitting with Ed Hightower and Teddy Valentine?

Wait, Ed would only call that if it benefited Indiana, and Teddy would only call it if it went against Bobby Knight!
Teddy actually reffed a few games I played in way, way back in the day(late 70s, early 80s). I got a few calls from him. He favored the underdog, and i fit the bill. We both have seen our better days!
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Old 04-16-19, 06:21 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
And to be clear, I am not in any way criticizing officials who take these types of games for extra cash. If anything I'm criticizing the assigners who won't negotiate for better pay and working conditions, or won't stand up for their officials handling business, out of fear of losing the gig (there's a great group called "Ref Union" with a Facebook page that consistently calls out assigners for this practice).

However, if we had more officials willing to refuse to work under poor pay and/or conditions, the problem would get corrected. Sadly, there are always those that will sell their souls (as I noted above).

Until action like the walkout mentioned above becomes more commonplace, things won't get any better.
Again, spot on.....
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Old 04-16-19, 06:26 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dig it View Post
The arrogance drips from this statement. Everyone at the table I was sitting at while watching the game immediately knew it was a double dribble. The instant debate at the time was whether or not a foul occurred before the double dribble, all before it was mentioned on tv. Crazy as it may sound, not one of us is an official. Many people know the game. Just because you own a striped shirt, it doesn't mean you automatically know more than someone who doesn't. This is exactly why people can get a sour taste in their mouth when it comes to refs.
Not sure where you got "I know more than others" out of my post, as all I did was share a fact.... The same fact that zebra shared....... which mirrored the reaction of the "experts" calling the game on TV...(not a word mentioned when it happened live... and not mentioned until after the time out and Gene was Consulted)

If that offended you, then so be it.
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