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  #31  
Old 01-07-18, 05:45 PM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is offline
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I think in some sports, Jerome parents can be tough for coaches to deal with , but I think Coach G can fairly easily navigate his way around them or get them to be supportive not intrusive .

Yes I know the Jerome parent and their 'Kind" and I realize it isn't the era that myself and some others commenting on this thread grew up in where coaches pretty much operated with full support from parents in a " The coaches aren't people we question " vane and if he kicks our kid in the AZZZ and gives him a hard time " Well he must have had it coming " attitude.

As is most things in life are , somewhere in the middle of then and now is probably optimum or at least more reasonable ?

Parents can be the bane of coaches existences , no question, many a coach has indeed resigned and looked for other opportunity's due to overzealous and 'Over involved " parents .

Burchfield isn't leaving Hartley , he did build it, my accurate assessment about the regional opponents being inherently overmatched notwithstanding , he can coach , motivate and he built the program to a higher level , he would be a desirable hire , but I don't see him as a public guy .

To further clarify my White and Davidson ' lack of talent " dynamic , it isn't lost on me that they don't have a plethora of D-1 kids signing annually in February .

Coaches are judged in a variety of ways , but the best of the best are often judged on what they do with marginal talent. Some coaches are faced with this dynamic more often than others .

White is often judged as the best due to the lack of D-1 talent that his program produces , or is it he is cursed to have to coach and get to overachieve with ? Therein is the rub . I rate him as the top guy in CO in this era due to his obvious two state titles which is really hard to do , coupled with his system that is designed to better deal with either Catholic's or Publics with different demographics that simply have more physical ability than his teams have .

I say the lack of talent is over-stated because I believe the talent equation isn't merely , 'Do they have many or a few D-1 kids". I think the D-1 kids can be difference makers no question about it, but I think Davidson in years past has had really good 'Athletes " be it track guys , wrestlers, or kids who aren't even going to play football at all in college really help them prosper.

This is the case with many small schools EVERY year. Back in previous era's kids played multiple sports in greater numbers , we al know that and we played them ourselves without thinking of specializing even if we knew what sport was most apt to be our" College" sport .

Davidson and White are given props , much like the famed Odessa Permian program that many are familiar with for winning at an incredibly high rate despite having very few D-1 kids relatively speaking to their main competition . Any of you familiar with the Friday night lights program knows this , the program was key, the culture, the lack of size and D-1 talent didn't impede their play-off runs on a yearly basis , their discipline , mental and physical toughness and culture carried the day much like Davidson's has the last 15 years.

Permian threw the ball 12-15 times a game and give or take some years depending on personnel that season. Back in their hey day some of their opponents ran the veer or and option based run mostly system and some beat them with bigger lineman , faster back s and superior execution .



Davidson does it another way, doesn't deviate from it no matter who they have on board . It has worked though, and when they have the right mix of players they are a big factor in the play-offs and have won titles. .

The lack of D-1 kids adds to the lore no question, as it is at the crux of their very identity isn't it? We run the system we do because we don't have the talent to run something else if we want to beat physically superior teams with more speed?

The system as run is going to limit the Offensive lineman's development though because they spend a lot of time on the ground which is the exact opposite of what 95 percent of college offensive line evaluators want to see.

We win with a lack of speed and D-1 talent is a badge of honor I suppose, it really is commendable in my opinion , but is it that simple ?

I follow Coach White on twitter, a lot of good motivational quotes and information , easy to see where his head is at and why he is such a good motivator and uber successful and respected coach .

Recently he retweeted the case of one of the New Year's day difference makers who was a basketball player first and came over to football later on . He mused about basketball players or athletes in general wanting to help their school on the gridiron . Interesting and telling ? He wants and knows he needs more athletes to thrive now?
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  #32  
Old 01-08-18, 11:25 AM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrycrane View Post
Were they not the only catholic at the regional level ? YES they were
Your original statement did not say regional level. Besides - in 2011 and 2012, Hartley was in Region 14 which include Elyria Catholic and Bishop Ready. They didn't face either of these teams in the playoffs despite their inherent Catholic advantages that should have propelled them directly to the regional championship by default. In 2012, Ready was blown out in round 1 by a public. 2011 ended for Hartley in a close regional final loss to the Kenton Maukers. 2012 ended in a blowout loss to zero traffic lights Clinton Massie McSurleys.

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Originally Posted by Harrycrane View Post
are you saying that theyn had no talent advantages due to being able to draw kids from other than a small two stoplight town in the middle of nowhere ?
The problem with you anti-Catholic folks - and there are tons of you in the state - is that you have zero respect for the effort expended by teams at Catholic schools. Fear, yes. Respect, no. Whenever a lower division Catholic school succeeds, all the success is attributed to these imaginary talent advantages. I grant that the SWO and NEO D1 megaschools with massive endowments have these advantages since they are basically state-wide open enrollment. And the Toledo Catholics are lucky enough to be surrounded by a bunch of failed public schools, but it only seems to be helping TCC in football.

I know I've explained this to you here and elsewhere a bunch of times already, and it hasn't seemed to sink in. Hartley talent level hasn't changed over the years. There are a lot of people who like to point at the voucher system as the cause of the "changing demos" and "influx of 'non-Catholics'" or whatever - but the EdChoice program started in 2006. Hartley started accepting voucher kids right away. The volume never changed. In the 10 years prior to Burchfield, Hartley qualified for the playoffs twice - 2004 and 2005. Got one win each year before exiting hard in the second round. Burchfield lost in the first round of 2008 running the old coach's system. 2009 was a rebuilding year to install the new wacky offense. Hartley has had great success since then that started with the state championship in 2010. No one noticed us until then.

Hartley's part of town is crowded with good suburban schools. We don't draw public kids away from the likes of Reynoldsburg, Pickerington, and Gahanna unless they've been in the feeder system since kindergarten. We do get some kids whose families would rather not have them attend a failed Columbus Public high school who didn't win the lottery for Eastmoor or Columbus Alternative.

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Originally Posted by Harrycrane View Post
Come on man we've been over this , they got better athletes play all publics at the D-4 D-5 REGIONAL LEVEL and won almost every game for a while , 80 percent by wide margins.
Hartley added Watterson in 2012. Chucks in 2013. DeSales in 2014. Toledo Central Catholic in 2015. Played a down Hoban a couple of years. And a smattering of out of state Catholics, including some small school state champs from Indiana and Michigan. So the qualifying path to the playoffs required a winning enough season against a bunch of higher division Catholic schools. Yes that was better preparation for the playoffs than playing a weak D-IV / D-V schedule in a conference that hasn't done anything in decades.

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Originally Posted by Harrycrane View Post
Sorry , I know what I am talking about
No you don't. You repeatedly say that you don't follow the lower divisions. You only commented on D-III this season in order to direct your snark at Hartley. You've got an obsession, not knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrycrane View Post
they were unlike the teams in their region in many ways, beating them like a drum wasn't the little engine that could story. Is it that hard to see the difference between them and Plain City high , and Indian river Tech ?
Hartley's 2004 team had two all-state players, but got positively thumped by Jonathan Alder and managed to lose to Northridge of all teams. In 2013 and 2014 went 0-3 against Coldwater - pobably because they have three traffic lights instead of just two. During this run of success, Hartley played some close D-IV and D-V games against Kenton, Bellevue, Wheelersburg, Liberty Union, Ironton, Ottawa-Glandorf, and Steubenville. Those games weren't decided by traffic signals. Those teams all played well because they were talented, well-coached, physical, and disciplined. In that order. Those are the attributes that makes Hartley a perenially successful team. Same as everybody else. In the lower divisions, there's no magic in being Catholic any more than there's something in the water in the MAC. But it does help to have an extremely challenging schedule.

Hartley started scheduling up in 2012, but moving into D-III has leveled the playing field. I don't think any of the consistently good public teams in Region 11 thinks we're unbeatable. We've been scrimmaging Zanesville for 3-4 years now. They match up well enough talent-wise, and I don't think they're going to see any more differences/advantages in us than they do in DeSales.
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  #33  
Old 01-08-18, 01:33 PM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is offline
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Don’t care about regular season schedules , just the fact that most years had a clear path against mostly overmatched public’s is all . Not saying you don’t put a lot of effort into it or have to work hard to win titles , just saying and commenting on many years regional field make-up
Level those margins of victory on average while impressive shows a personnel advantage most including myself would disagree that the talent has remain unchanged like you do . Talent level is more than number of all State players .

You put a ton of effort into that , sorry to say it hasn’t changed my mind at all . You say little engine that could story with a great coach getting you to sl those regional titles , I give credit but basically at the regional you aren’t competing against schools like yourself in anyway , apples and Oranges as most even catholic coaches in a truthful moment admit .

Nothing personal here but no need to write Another Hartley history chapter . I don’t CARE about lower division bal as much , doesn’t mean I don’t know anything about it or the dynamics in place , history or talent
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  #34  
Old 01-08-18, 01:36 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley1 View Post
Who are the top coaches in Central Ohio?
1. Sharret -Pick Central
2. White - Davidson
3. Hale - Liberty
4. Crabtree - Coffman
5. Burchfield - Hartley

And if you were a new school (Berlin) and could pick any coach in Central Ohio to start your program who would it be?
Rumor in Summit County is that Olentangy Berlin is going to hire Mark Nori away from Stow. If so, then this is a great hire by Berlin. He's an excellent coach and a better man. They will be very happy with the quality of program he will build there.
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  #35  
Old 01-08-18, 01:37 PM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is offline
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Now in D-3 the region is different my point was more over the D-5 and D-4 days just to clarify
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  #36  
Old 01-08-18, 01:45 PM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is offline
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Hartley had ZERO to do with predicting games this year in D-3 through the big boys , had NEVER done this before this year so you are wrong . Snark ? My only mistake was thinking they were better than they were . Predicted them to win big which they did for two weeks until losing . I was wrong not snarky , although the play calling in the second half may have been less than good , I commented on lack of field position ALL GAME ,and it being hard to lose with that yardage advantage . I was wrong about how good they were , so what I? You seem to want people to think the talent is average and you win other ways . Ok you can feel how you want , why do you care what I think so much ???
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  #37  
Old 01-08-18, 02:18 PM
TCSoup TCSoup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrycrane View Post
Hartley had ZERO to do with predicting games this year in D-3 through the big boys , had NEVER done this before this year so you are wrong . Snark ? My only mistake was thinking they were better than they were . Predicted them to win big which they did for two weeks until losing . I was wrong not snarky , although the play calling in the second half may have been less than good , I commented on lack of field position ALL GAME ,and it being hard to lose with that yardage advantage . I was wrong about how good they were , so what I? You seem to want people to think the talent is average and you win other ways . Ok you can feel how you want , why do you care what I think so much ???
Can you and Hartley Boy take your slap fight elsewhere.?
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  #38  
Old 01-08-18, 05:13 PM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is offline
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Tell him , he has the problem with my opinion here . I am fine with his narrative even if I don’t agree with some of it
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  #39  
Old 01-08-18, 05:54 PM
sapientia et veritas sapientia et veritas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCSoup View Post
Can you and Hartley Boy take your slap fight elsewhere.?
I'm explaining why Hartley's success is more a consequence of the coaching than any superiority of talent. It's germane to the discussion at hand.
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  #40  
Old 01-08-18, 06:03 PM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is offline
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And most will say while the coaching is better , the talent is also getting and has gotten better, , I am one of many to think that, if you want to think that the talent and speed level has remained basically unchanged over the last few decades, so be it, your entitled to think that. and to think it is almost completely coaching and not talent that's ok, if you want to think that at the D-5 and D-4 level that getting through those regionals to the final four most years was like fighting the 'Holy War " go for it. In fact make it a regular part of any Hartley sermon .
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  #41  
Old 01-08-18, 06:23 PM
TCSoup TCSoup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapientia et veritas View Post
I'm explaining why Hartley's success is more a consequence of the coaching than any superiority of talent. It's germane to the discussion at hand.
No its the same old rehash you 2 been slap fighting about for years.
Start your own Hartley / Harry discussion thread .
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  #42  
Old 01-08-18, 06:48 PM
Friday night light Friday night light is offline
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Originally Posted by sapientia et veritas View Post
I'm explaining why Hartley's success is more a consequence of the coaching than any superiority of talent. It's germane to the discussion at hand.
The G damn Germans got nothing to do with it!!!!
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  #43  
Old 01-09-18, 07:58 AM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is offline
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“ Germane Germane remember the name “. Get your riigghttt caaaarrr AT Reichert
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  #44  
Old 01-09-18, 09:04 AM
thedudeabides thedudeabides is offline
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What about Tito, Marlon, Jackie, and Michael?? Sorry... Seemed like the next logical turn for pulling this thread completely off the rails... Don't forget LaToya and Janet!!!
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  #45  
Old 01-09-18, 03:22 PM
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FormerWildcat FormerWildcat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambeau Fields View Post
replicate what they did from 2001-13, but his success over that period is simply incredible IMHO.
2015 was a pretty good year. 2014 wasn't bad; they almost upset Coffman in the playoff rematch.
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  #46  
Old 01-09-18, 10:57 PM
Lambeau Fields Lambeau Fields is offline
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Originally Posted by FormerWildcat View Post
2015 was a pretty good year. 2014 wasn't bad; they almost upset Coffman in the playoff rematch.
No argument there. I just see 2013 as a recent peak. That was a special team. I could see them continuing to produce teams like the 2014-15 teams with some regularity , but not likely have 4 teams like the 2006, 2009, 2010, and 2013 vintages. At least not 4 teams like that in an 8 year stretch. I could be wrong.
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  #47  
Old 01-10-18, 12:49 AM
FootballDNA FootballDNA is offline
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Originally Posted by Hartley1 View Post
Most wins in the past 3 years...
1. Burchfield 36, Hartley
2. Sharret 35, Pick Central
3. Hale 31, Liberty
4. Wiggins 29, DeSales
5. Hillerich 28, Pick North/Hamilton Township
Others... Loparo 27, Bradley... Solis 26, Olentangy... Crabtree 25, Coffman
3. Carter 32, Johnstown-Monroe
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  #48  
Old 01-10-18, 07:12 AM
Harrycrane Harrycrane is offline
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I have to agree with the Boss here , 2015 was a good year for Davidson and they played a great game against a very good Coffman team in 2014 play-offs taking them the full 48 and narrowly losing .

But the title runs were done with larger numbers , not a huge difference but with only two high schools at the time it was more likely to have that type of team. We don't see the number of quality athletes on defense at this point as we did in those 'Salad days" and the offensive lines have not been as good the last handful of years overall as they were say 2004- through 2011 ?

The system they run doesn't require high talent levels, you don't need shifty jaguar speed backs or a rangy talented passer who can move obviously or good solid receivers, but what you do need is a bit more talent up front on offensive to make that system go and a few more athletes on defense, haven't been seeing them in enough numbers lately, good teams can eventually find mismatches and weaknesses on the defense and the teams with good front sevens who are coached well on their schedule have had good success keeping them from holding the ball for the classic patented 8 drives .


So the margin for error has gotten smaller, back in the day Davidson use to get a couple 15 yarders late hits when up and feeling comfortable, my opinion was they wanted to rub your face in it a bit, don't go crazy, I saw it with my own eyes and that's my opinion not an indictment on anyone, sharks smell blood and get excited.

Less sharks over there now, some good tough football players, but just not the same numbers of them as before. I do think this year they get back to the play-offs, , White is steaming over there not winning a play-off game in two years and missing altogether last year. Not sitting well , they will be even more fanatical in their effort I believe this off-season and in season . Teams better buckle up.
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  #49  
Old 01-10-18, 05:40 PM
The Dock The Dock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley1 View Post
Most wins in the past 3 years...
1. Burchfield 36, Hartley
2. Sharret 35, Pick Central
3. Hale 31, Liberty
4. Wiggins 29, DeSales
5. Hillerich 28, Pick North/Hamilton Township
Others... Loparo 27, Bradley... Solis 26, Olentangy... Crabtree 25, Coffman
Milan Smith has 29 wins in the past three seasons at Harvest Prep.

Last edited by The Dock; 01-15-18 at 11:43 AM.
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