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  #61  
Old 04-29-19, 09:05 AM
simkon simkon is offline
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It is just a bad Harbin situation. I am not saying Canfield couldn't compete with East and Cheney, they just would get minimal Harbins from them. The teams Canfield would need to defeat in this league would be Fitch, Harding, Boardman, and Ursuline or Mooney if they are good. And I doubt they would ever beat Fitch, Harding and Boardman in one season unless they were all having down years in which case Canfield would still miss the playoffs.

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  #62  
Old 04-29-19, 09:23 AM
simkon simkon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BTrev View Post

As for OOC...

Poland is D4. Howland is D3. Louisville is D3. Alliance is D3.



Say Canfield plays the 7 league schools... Poland and Howland... and either Louisville or Alliance. They'd play 3 bigger schools. 5 smaller schools. And 2 same size schools.



So the majority of opponents would be smaller, not bigger.
Canfield's OOC games would more likely be Poland, Dover, Louisville, or possibly Highland or another D II. Alliance is not on Canfield's schedule any longer, and Howland may not be interested in playing us either if they continue to have down years at this rate.
The proposed league would be detrimental towards Canfield making the playoffs just because of how the Harbins would work out. If they utilized different means to determine playoff teams then I would have no problem with this league arrangement.
As it stands right now, Canfield couldn't even join this league due to previous commitments on the schedule. It would have to wait 2 or 3 years until only Poland and Dover are penciled in.



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  #63  
Old 04-29-19, 03:21 PM
BTrev BTrev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simkon View Post
Canfield's OOC games would more likely be Poland, Dover, Louisville, or possibly Highland or another D II. Alliance is not on Canfield's schedule any longer, and Howland may not be interested in playing us either if they continue to have down years at this rate.
The proposed league would be detrimental towards Canfield making the playoffs just because of how the Harbins would work out. If they utilized different means to determine playoff teams then I would have no problem with this league arrangement.
As it stands right now, Canfield couldn't even join this league due to previous commitments on the schedule. It would have to wait 2 or 3 years until only Poland and Dover are penciled in.



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No one is saying the league has to start this year. Canfield isn't the only school with previous commitments. Of course it would be a couple years down the road.

Has Canfield lost to Boardman since that series was kickstarted a few years ago? And Fitch and Harding are trending downward. Harding probably won't drop off too much... but there's a good chance that Fitch will be on the same level as Boardman in a few years.

So say Canfield beats Poland and splits with Dover and the other D2 school. 2-1. Say they beat Boardman, Mooney, Ursuline, Chaney, East. 7-1. If Fitch keeps hemorrhaging enrollment after the GM shutdown, they just dropped like 100+ boys from a couple years ago, it wouldn't be a surprise if Canfield beat them in a few years. And say they lose to Harding... 8-2.

8-2 would get Canfield in the playoffs most years. And every so often they'd get a special group that goes 9-1 or 10-0. Sure, Canfield would have some sub .500 years... but that wouldn't be the norm, either.
And they could always schedule easier OOC games... they don't need to play Dover and other D2 powerhouses every year. A cupcake, a Harbin cow, and Poland would suffice. There'd be plenty of Harbins on the table in league play.

It's not a matter of what Fitch was, or even is right now... it's a matter of what they'll be in a few years. I don't think they'll be an "automatic loss" every year, as you like to say. The last several years, yes. Canfield wouldn't have done too well against Fitch. Going forward, I'd be more optimistic... and I actually don't think it's all that unpragmatic.

Canfield's football and basketball teams wouldn't own the league every year, but they wouldn't exactly get killed either. Their soccer, golf, tennis, wrestling, and baseball teams would dominate this league. And the girls would clean up, too.

Would Canfield make money in this league? Yes. Lots of it. Lots of games that would draw big crowds, especially in football and basketball.
Would Canfield be competitive in this league? Yes. Very competitive. And perennial championship contenders in almost every sport.
Would this league make scheduling easy for Canfield and make sense geographically? Yes. Like 85-90% of their games across all sports would be in Mahoning county... which would also save a ton of money on travel.

But in football, Canfield wouldn't go 10-0 every year and be the number 1 seed in Region 9... so it's not a good fit? Please.

First the excuse was we can't beat Mooney or Ursuline. Then it was Fitch and Harding are too big. Now it's the Harbin situation...

The truth is, Canfield would never join a league like this because they wouldn't be in control. They'd need to actually get along and be more democratic with the other members. Judging how they handled the situation with Poland, their biggest rival and the biggest draw on their schedule. And how they've publicly vowed to never play Mooney or Ursuline. Their administration is too stubborn and authoritarian to ever have a healthy working relationship with Boardman, Fitch, Harding, Mooney, Ursuline, etc.
That's why Struthers wants nothing to do with them anymore.

It's a shame.
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  #64  
Old 04-29-19, 03:42 PM
simkon simkon is offline
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Playing their OOC schedule (assume Poland, Dover, Highland) and in the proposed league Canfield would never have an 8-2 record. OOC they would go 1-2 most years, in Conference expect losses to 2 of the following teams Fitch, Boardman, and Harding. So best case they go 6-4 and might get an 8 seed if they are lucky. Canfield does not have the depth and athletes year in and year out to be competitive playing a mostly D-II schedule. Canfield can handle playing one of Boardman, Harding or Fitch but playing all 3 would really wear them down. Canfield would have likely lost to Boardman every year if they had to play a tough opponent every week.

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  #65  
Old 04-29-19, 05:40 PM
Buckeye Elite Buckeye Elite is offline
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^^ if you say they don’t have the athletes year in and out to compete with those schools which is disagree they are just as much talented then all except maybe Harding and fitch, why did they cry and cry because all schools D4 and soon to be D5 didn’t want to let them join their conference, seems to me like Canfield calls teams scared to play them when the school is smaller, but then won’t play in a league with schools a little bigger then them and not by much at all either. Sounds really hypocritical to me. But hey that’s how Canfield has always been, Howland too for that matter, they just stink so nobody cares.
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  #66  
Old 04-29-19, 07:09 PM
Red-Lep Red-Lep is offline
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If we don't consider football in this conversation, than the merger of all these schools (including....gasp... Howland) makes for a logical choice for everyone. Boys and Girls teams in all other sports are all competitive. Simple solution, form a conference with all schools in but for football where everyone will stay independent.
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  #67  
Old 04-29-19, 07:11 PM
simkon simkon is offline
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Canfield is too big for the NE8 and too small to play with Boardman, Harding and Fitch. Canfield and Howland are the only D-III schools in the tri-county area. Canfield is an outlier in the area in terms of enrollment and demographics. Howland is in a similar boat but they may be in a better position than Canfield in terms of enrollment.

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  #68  
Old 04-29-19, 07:57 PM
Jaws31 Jaws31 is offline
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Saying Canfield is too small to play with Boardman, Harding and Fitch is the reason Canfield will go 8-2, 9-1 with the occasional 10 win regular season and get beat before they should in the playoffs.
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  #69  
Old 04-29-19, 08:08 PM
BTrev BTrev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws31 View Post
Saying Canfield is too small to play with Boardman, Harding and Fitch is the reason Canfield will go 8-2, 9-1 with the occasional 10 win regular season and get beat before they should in the playoffs.
This guy gets it.
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  #70  
Old 04-29-19, 08:10 PM
simkon simkon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaws31 View Post
Saying Canfield is too small to play with Boardman, Harding and Fitch is the reason Canfield will go 8-2, 9-1 with the occasional 10 win regular season and get beat before they should in the playoffs.
Except that has never been the case actually. They lost to eventual state champion Kenston last year, Runner-up St. Vincent-St. Mary the year before, the previous playoff appearance they lost to St. Vincent-St. Mary who lost to eventual state champion Hoban. Almost every year they made the playoffs they lost to either the state champion, state Runner-Up or the team they lost to lost to the eventual state champion.
I don't see even one time that matches what you described.
Maybe you would like to believe that is the case but the reality is that it hasn't happened as of yet but I suppose it could possibly happen in the future. But until it does you don't really have a leg to stand on.
So you have a problem with them losing to TCC in 2005 or Kenston last year or Pickerington when they all won the championship?

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  #71  
Old 04-29-19, 08:13 PM
simkon simkon is offline
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Originally Posted by BTrev View Post
This guy gets it.
Apparently you are just as clueless as that guy then. I get the point he is trying to make but they haven't lost in that fashion yet.
Maybe the year they beat Howland in the regular season and then lost to them in the playoffs is the only time that matches that description. But other than that there is no time that even comes close.

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  #72  
Old 04-29-19, 08:14 PM
BTrev BTrev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red-Lep View Post
If we don't consider football in this conversation, than the merger of all these schools (including....gasp... Howland) makes for a logical choice for everyone. Boys and Girls teams in all other sports are all competitive. Simple solution, form a conference with all schools in but for football where everyone will stay independent.
Not a bad idea... but I have a hunch that it'd be an all or not situation. And Canfield would never go for it, for reasons mentioned above. And no... the "Canfield is too small to play with Boardman, Fitch, and Harding" argument doesn't hold water.
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  #73  
Old 04-29-19, 08:22 PM
BTrev BTrev is offline
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Originally Posted by simkon View Post
Except that has never been the case actually. They lost to eventual state champion Kenston last year, Runner-up St. Vincent-St. Mary the year before, the previous playoff appearance they lost to St. Vincent-St. Mary who lost to eventual state champion Hoban. Almost every year they made the playoffs they lost to either the state champion, state Runner-Up or the team they lost to lost to the eventual state champion.
I don't see even one time that matches what you described.
Maybe you would like to believe that is the case but the reality is that it hasn't happened as of yet but I suppose it could possibly happen in the future. But until it does you don't really have a leg to stand on.
So you have a problem with them losing to TCC in 2005 or Kenston last year or Pickerington when they all won the championship?

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Just a couple things... they shouldn't have lost to TCC in 2005... but you can't knock a team for losing in the state championship game. And they absolutely should've beat SVSM in 2017.
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  #74  
Old 04-29-19, 08:24 PM
BTrev BTrev is offline
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Originally Posted by simkon View Post
Apparently you are just as clueless as that guy then. I get the point he is trying to make but they haven't lost in that fashion yet.
Maybe the year they beat Howland in the regular season and then lost to them in the playoffs is the only time that matches that description. But other than that there is no time that even comes close.

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Wrong.
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  #75  
Old 04-29-19, 08:27 PM
BTrev BTrev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simkon View Post
Canfield is too big for the NE8 and too small to play with Boardman, Harding and Fitch. Canfield and Howland are the only D-III schools in the tri-county area. Canfield is an outlier in the area in terms of enrollment and demographics. Howland is in a similar boat but they may be in a better position than Canfield in terms of enrollment.

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I agree with you on Howland. The rest is BS though.
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  #76  
Old 04-29-19, 08:30 PM
simkon simkon is offline
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Originally Posted by BTrev View Post
Just a couple things... they shouldn't have lost to TCC in 2005... but you can't knock a team for losing in the state championship game. And they absolutely should've beat SVSM in 2017.
Perhaps Canfield should have won against SV-SM but it was a very close game. Its not like they got blown out. I will concede the year they lost to Howland though.

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  #77  
Old 04-29-19, 08:30 PM
BTrev BTrev is offline
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Honest question Simken…

If not the new Youngstown league, where does Canfield fit best then?
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  #78  
Old 04-29-19, 08:41 PM
simkon simkon is offline
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Originally Posted by BTrev View Post
Honest question Simken…

If not the new Youngstown league, where does Canfield fit best then?
They fit extremely well in terms of enrollment and demographics and competitiveness in the Suburban League in the lower tier. They just are a far geographic outlier and wouldn't be feasible for that reason, if they were 15-20 minutes closer to Akron they might get serious consideration but obviously as it stands Canfield is best off playing an independent football schedule and just scheduling whoever is willing to play them in the tri-county area for everything else.

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  #79  
Old 04-29-19, 10:33 PM
BTrev BTrev is offline
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What if they joined that Youngstown league with Howland? And Boardman, Fitch, Harding were left out. That would be a nice 6 team league of Canfield, Chaney, East, Howland, Mooney, and Ursuline.

Niles and Hubbard might not be bad fits for that league, either... and Salem and West Branch could take their places in the NE8.

Bam! A couple of well balanced 8 school conferences that could be around for decades. Everyone would have to get over the stigma of playing Mooney and Ursuline. So good luck to that ever happening. Mooney and Ursuline could drop to D7 and everyone would still be afraid of them...
It'd be really cool, though. The 2 leagues would look something like this...

Unnamed Youngstown League
Canfield - D3
Howland - D3
Niles - D3
Hubbard - D3
East - D4
Chaney - D4
Ursuline - D4
Mooney - D5

NE8
West Branch - D4
Salem - D4
Struthers - D4
Poland - D4
Lakeview - D5
Girard - D5
South Range - D5
Jefferson Area - D5

Crestview would be a solid replacement if Jefferson ever decides they've had enough.

I think the big 3 would be mad about being left out... but those would still be some pretty good conferences.
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  #80  
Old 04-29-19, 10:38 PM
BTrev BTrev is offline
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Sorry for hijacking the thread. Doesn't really apply to the AAC Blue or the MVAC... I know.
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  #81  
Old 04-29-19, 10:45 PM
Buckeye Elite Buckeye Elite is offline
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I think Hubbard belongs in the NE8 especially with them starting to lose
Some transfers back to city schools
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  #82  
Old 04-30-19, 06:42 AM
bop bop is offline
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With the constant shifting of population here in our area, maybe we should employ what PA does and have districts. If you are this size school, you are in this district and play these teams. The OHSAA would have to do it because the locals could never agree. Just seems to be a non-stop league issue all over our area over the last 10 years that never get it right. If you are playing schools your own size, you have no gripe.
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  #83  
Old 04-30-19, 06:49 AM
Football 101 Football 101 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BTrev View Post
Unnamed Youngstown League
Canfield - D3
Howland - D3
Niles - D3
Hubbard - D3
East - D4
Chaney - D4
Ursuline - D4
Mooney - D5

NE8
West Branch - D4
Salem - D4
Struthers - D4
Poland - D4
Lakeview - D5
Girard - D5
South Range - D5
Jefferson Area - D5

Crestview would be a solid replacement if Jefferson ever decides they've had enough.

I think the big 3 would be mad about being left out... but those would still be some pretty good conferences.
makes waaaaaayyyy too much sense - so that excludes it from actually happening
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  #84  
Old 04-30-19, 08:05 AM
ideliver ideliver is offline
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Originally Posted by kingpin2010 View Post
Fantasy? Bring in JFK, move them and Brookfield to MVAC and Waterloo and Springfield to AAC. Groups the D5 and large D6 together and small D6 and D7 together.
Haha....Brookfield, LaBrae, Newton Falls and Crestview all said they wouldn't even come to the table if JFK was there.

Newton Falls turned down the NAC too.
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  #85  
Old 04-30-19, 08:10 AM
ideliver ideliver is offline
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Originally Posted by BTrev View Post
No one is saying the league has to start this year. Canfield isn't the only school with previous commitments. Of course it would be a couple years down the road.

Has Canfield lost to Boardman since that series was kickstarted a few years ago? And Fitch and Harding are trending downward. Harding probably won't drop off too much... but there's a good chance that Fitch will be on the same level as Boardman in a few years.

So say Canfield beats Poland and splits with Dover and the other D2 school. 2-1. Say they beat Boardman, Mooney, Ursuline, Chaney, East. 7-1. If Fitch keeps hemorrhaging enrollment after the GM shutdown, they just dropped like 100+ boys from a couple years ago, it wouldn't be a surprise if Canfield beat them in a few years. And say they lose to Harding... 8-2.

8-2 would get Canfield in the playoffs most years. And every so often they'd get a special group that goes 9-1 or 10-0. Sure, Canfield would have some sub .500 years... but that wouldn't be the norm, either.
And they could always schedule easier OOC games... they don't need to play Dover and other D2 powerhouses every year. A cupcake, a Harbin cow, and Poland would suffice. There'd be plenty of Harbins on the table in league play.

It's not a matter of what Fitch was, or even is right now... it's a matter of what they'll be in a few years. I don't think they'll be an "automatic loss" every year, as you like to say. The last several years, yes. Canfield wouldn't have done too well against Fitch. Going forward, I'd be more optimistic... and I actually don't think it's all that unpragmatic.

Canfield's football and basketball teams wouldn't own the league every year, but they wouldn't exactly get killed either. Their soccer, golf, tennis, wrestling, and baseball teams would dominate this league. And the girls would clean up, too.

Would Canfield make money in this league? Yes. Lots of it. Lots of games that would draw big crowds, especially in football and basketball.
Would Canfield be competitive in this league? Yes. Very competitive. And perennial championship contenders in almost every sport.
Would this league make scheduling easy for Canfield and make sense geographically? Yes. Like 85-90% of their games across all sports would be in Mahoning county... which would also save a ton of money on travel.

But in football, Canfield wouldn't go 10-0 every year and be the number 1 seed in Region 9... so it's not a good fit? Please.

First the excuse was we can't beat Mooney or Ursuline. Then it was Fitch and Harding are too big. Now it's the Harbin situation...

The truth is, Canfield would never join a league like this because they wouldn't be in control. They'd need to actually get along and be more democratic with the other members. Judging how they handled the situation with Poland, their biggest rival and the biggest draw on their schedule. And how they've publicly vowed to never play Mooney or Ursuline. Their administration is too stubborn and authoritarian to ever have a healthy working relationship with Boardman, Fitch, Harding, Mooney, Ursuline, etc.
That's why Struthers wants nothing to do with them anymore.

It's a shame.
This is Canfield in a nutshell...too good for everyone

They want no part of any league that they can't go 9-1 or 10-0 every year...because they are that good.

Oh...and the loose to the eventual state runner up every year...

If Ursuline, Mooney and JFK counted those (on top of their actual state championships)....they'd had double digit titles...

But...coulda woulda shoulda....enjoy your participation trophies...
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  #86  
Old 04-30-19, 08:17 AM
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Kenston was in the same boat as Canfield and Howland was when the CVC booted them for "outgrowing" the rest of the league. They are now the smallest school in the WRC and their enrollment differential from Riverside and South is similar to what Canfield and Howland's would be to Austintown Fitch and Boardman. Kenston was 8-2 in 2017 and 15-1 in 2018 (state champions). Ironically, their only loss last season was to Chardon (the second smallest school in the WRC). So, playing larger schools probably isn't ideal, but when there are no other options it is certainly happening elsewhere with success.
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  #87  
Old 04-30-19, 11:03 AM
itzme itzme is offline
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Originally Posted by ideliver View Post
Haha....Brookfield, LaBrae, Newton Falls and Crestview all said they wouldn't even come to the table if JFK was there.

Newton Falls turned down the NAC too.
Why would Crestview & Labrae say that? Crestview has played JFK every year since 2015 and Labrae has played them every year since 2012. In football. Other sports dont want to play them?
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  #88  
Old 04-30-19, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Football 101 View Post
makes waaaaaayyyy too much sense - so that excludes it from actually happening
Why in the world would West Branch trade its six current road trips (and established rivalries) that are all 45 minutes or less (and four are 15-30 minutes), for a league where five of the seven schools are at least a 45-minute ride?
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  #89  
Old 04-30-19, 11:45 AM
Football 101 Football 101 is offline
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ok

slide Crestview in that lineup instead of West Branch(which is further from canton south and carrollton than 30 minutes)

but ok

Last edited by Football 101; 04-30-19 at 12:56 PM.
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  #90  
Old 04-30-19, 12:32 PM
BTrev BTrev is offline
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Why in the world would West Branch trade its six current road trips (and established rivalries) that are all 45 minutes or less (and four are 15-30 minutes), for a league where five of the seven schools are at least a 45-minute ride?
Why is Jefferson in the NE8. Why were Jefferson and Edgewood in the AAC?

5 of the 8 are former MVC schools, including WB.
But ok. Point taken.

There are other D4-D5 schools in the area that would make sense.
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