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  #1  
Old 05-22-19, 08:43 AM
shaggy71 shaggy71 is offline
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PIAA to change weigh classes?

https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/spo...r70zf9yVD7Mz7Q
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  #2  
Old 05-22-19, 09:10 AM
Sweep Sweep is offline
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Looks good to me! I might raise 185 to 189. 30lb jump between weight classes seems like a lot. Seems they dropped a lower weight class, then re-adjusted the mids and uppers and dropped one more. If they were wanting to go to 13 then I would do a combo of the two systems.
106-113-120-126-132-140-146-152-160-172-185-215-285
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  #3  
Old 05-22-19, 09:14 AM
bulldowg_Wrestling19 bulldowg_Wrestling19 is offline
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I hope this does not go through. It is nice to see a change in the weight classes, but it doesn't address the real problem: the weight class distribution.


The simplest and most effective way to curb forfeits and still give as many kids an opportunity as possible is to take away one weight class from the lower and upper weights and add them to the middle weights. 220 and 113 are notoriously low in numbers, and almost always 2 of the lowest filled weight classes at sectionals throughout the state of Ohio.

Don't believe me? Go look at Track rosters and where kids weighed in for their alpha. Yes, weights change as the season goes on, but a HUGE majority of the kids are from 126-160. Sopme teams have 4 and 5 145/152's and one 220/113 if they're lucky.

Get rid of 195/220, create a new weight class at 205, get rid of 113 all together, adjust 120 down to 116, and add the remaining weight classes in the middle.

It makes absolutely zero sense to eliminate weight classes when there are kids on the roster who could wrestle, but they just happen to be born in a body that a large percentage of kids naturally weigh.

106
116
126
132
138
143
149
155
160
165
170
185
205
285


Yeah, yeah the NFHS did a study to determine the current weight classes. Well, the study sucked because it only made the problem of forfeits WORSE rather than make it better. Whoever thought taking a middle weight out was a good idea couldn't have been a coach, and if they are/were, they have not been around the sport in a long time.
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  #4  
Old 05-22-19, 09:19 AM
Sweep Sweep is offline
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From a different news source
110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215 and 285.
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  #5  
Old 05-22-19, 11:14 AM
heavybcat heavybcat is offline
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Bulldowg,
I like your idea! I have coached HS for 25 yrs. This would have helped my numbers for the teams. Many wouldnt come out because we had an over load of good wrestlers in the middle weights.
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  #6  
Old 05-22-19, 01:13 PM
wrestlfan wrestlfan is offline
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if maximizing participation is the key it is very simple
allow 14 kids to wrestle in an event regardless of weight class
there have been several years where i had a stud hvy not be able to compete.
cutting 70 pounds was not an option
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  #7  
Old 05-22-19, 01:54 PM
bulldowg_Wrestling19 bulldowg_Wrestling19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavybcat View Post
Bulldowg,
I like your idea! I have coached HS for 25 yrs. This would have helped my numbers for the teams. Many wouldnt come out because we had an over load of good wrestlers in the middle weights.
To me it seems like a very obvious and practical solution. Why no one else has thought of this or brought it up is beyond me. Making less weight classes IS NOT the answer. If they wanted to allow small schools to use a modified dual format with less weight classes to make them more competitive that is fine by me, but a universal elimination of 2 weight classes by the NFHS would be detrimental in my opinion.
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  #8  
Old 05-22-19, 02:42 PM
Blast82.5 Blast82.5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrestlfan View Post
if maximizing participation is the key it is very simple
allow 14 kids to wrestle in an event regardless of weight class
I like this idea. I know it presents challenges for tournaments that would prefer to have similar numbers in each weight class, but that can be managed by experienced people.

Offhand, I'm not sure what to do with the year-end tourneys (how many progress from Sectional to District to State ... and how many "place" ... does it depend on the number of entrants?), but I suppose solutions could be found.
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  #9  
Old 05-22-19, 06:09 PM
Huge Huge is offline
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111, 118 then college weights for a total of 12 weights. Problem solved.
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  #10  
Old 05-22-19, 08:33 PM
UsedToBe103 UsedToBe103 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huge View Post
111, 118 then college weights for a total of 12 weights. Problem solved.
If they did that I would want something added between 197 and 285, which would make it 13 weight classes and solve the issue of tiebreaker criteria. Having a huge gap from 197 to 285 is acceptable in college (but still not ideal) since they are adults, but not so much in high school. No mother wants their 210 pound boy wrestling a 285 pound mammoth.
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  #11  
Old 05-22-19, 08:57 PM
Huge Huge is offline
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Lower hs heavyweight to a max of 250 or so
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  #12  
Old 05-22-19, 09:26 PM
UsedToBe103 UsedToBe103 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huge View Post
Lower hs heavyweight to a max of 250 or so
Unfortunately I think we'd lose even more football players if we did that.
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  #13  
Old 05-22-19, 09:46 PM
ProV1 ProV1 is offline
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No wonder PA is the best wrestling state. They use common sense and and make the tough decisions for the good of the sport. This was needed a long time ago.
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  #14  
Old 05-23-19, 04:43 PM
Blast82.5 Blast82.5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsedToBe103 View Post
Unfortunately I think we'd lose even more football players if we did that.
Why does wrestling care so deeply about having football players wrestle?

Does Baseball soul-search about the number of basketball players playing? Or does Track fret about the number of volleyball players (or wrestlers)?

I'd offer that the main reason is that we can't fill the heavy classes with guys who actually want to wrestle, so we have to beg football players to come out, so that we don't have forfeits.

Huge - Like your idea, would require very little tweaking of any of the weights. I've long thought that reducing the HWT limit to something like 240 or 250, and eliminating the 215/220 class would be a positive move. The absolute worst wrestling is performed in the top two classes.
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  #15  
Old 05-23-19, 11:07 PM
UsedToBe103 UsedToBe103 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast82.5 View Post
Why does wrestling care so deeply about having football players wrestle?

Does Baseball soul-search about the number of basketball players playing? Or does Track fret about the number of volleyball players (or wrestlers)?

I'd offer that the main reason is that we can't fill the heavy classes with guys who actually want to wrestle, so we have to beg football players to come out, so that we don't have forfeits.

Huge - Like your idea, would require very little tweaking of any of the weights. I've long thought that reducing the HWT limit to something like 240 or 250, and eliminating the 215/220 class would be a positive move. The absolute worst wrestling is performed in the top two classes.
I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not interested in football players for the sake of being football players, but rather just because the more athletic guys in the 220 and 285 range are probably also football players, so if you don't get them then there are probably guys walking your hallways who could beat your heavyweight.

But I definitely agree that the worst wrestling from a technique and action standpoint is in the top two classes.
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  #16  
Old 05-24-19, 10:51 AM
miketyson miketyson is offline
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I was really starting

to think about what about the football players argument. It seems like we are constantly trying to appease to football. Yet the participation keeps going down. The depth at the upper weights are laughable. Then when we look to do a restructure of weight classes to make the teams more competitive we have a 215 for the "football players" instead of creating an extra weight class for the average sized kid. Doesn't make any sense. I think we should stop slamming our heads into the wall to get these guys out to wrestle cause they really don't want to do it.
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  #17  
Old 05-24-19, 12:54 PM
cosh wrestling dad cosh wrestling dad is offline
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Moving the lightest weight up even further smh . It would Surprise me if we didn't lose 50-75 kids that can't make that till soph/Jr year that end up being good even great 126-138 upper classmen. But of course let's give the guys eating the cheeseburger on the way to weigh-ins another weight class
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  #18  
Old 05-26-19, 11:19 PM
Huge Huge is offline
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The data support raising the lowest weight and reducing weight classes will reduce forfeits and reduce the likelihood of inexperienced wrestlers thrown into varsity before they are ready just avoid a forfeit. No other sport requires 14 starters. Foot ball has 11 baseball has 9 etc. I wrestled 119 as a senior and my son was 113/120 so I am all for the little guys. I also know the data shows that not many wrestlers weigh over 250. You can look up all the stats from the certifications via NHSCA website.
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  #19  
Old 05-27-19, 08:26 PM
scbuckeye99 scbuckeye99 is offline
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Am I correct in stating that the current weight classes were determined by OPC data?? If so then why was the data so off??? Is that a fair assessment??? It seems to me that if the weights were changed to more adequately suit what kids were weighing than we shouldn't be having these issues with numbers of kids in a class. Yes??? or am I weigh off? ;-)
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  #20  
Old 05-28-19, 11:06 AM
Campolongo Campolongo is offline
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Don't change any of the actual weight classes.

Make 106 lbs a "sub-varsity" level weight class (JV & Frosh levels only; similar to 98 lbs for freshman level).



JRHS continues to offer 16 (I believe) weight classes

JV & Freshman levels both adopt 98 lbs and thus have 15 weight classes offering more opportunity for the younger/inexperienced wrestlers.

Varsity starts at 113 lbs and has 13 weights.

No need for tiebreak criteria.

Gradual progression physically & competitively.

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  #21  
Old 05-28-19, 05:00 PM
Blast82.5 Blast82.5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campolongo View Post
Don't change any of the actual weight classes.

Make 106 lbs a "sub-varsity" level weight class (JV & Frosh levels only; similar to 98 lbs for freshman level).



JRHS continues to offer 16 (I believe) weight classes

JV & Freshman levels both adopt 98 lbs and thus have 15 weight classes offering more opportunity for the younger/inexperienced wrestlers.

Varsity starts at 113 lbs and has 13 weights.

No need for tiebreak criteria.

Gradual progression physically & competitively.

Great idea! Solves the tie-breaker issue at the same time. I advocated for something similar on another thread ... eliminating or raising the lowest Varsity class, as long as it remains available for Freshmen / JV.

If the light classes are removed altogether, then small guys lose about their only chance in sports that is currently available. This is where many of the best 126 / 132 / 138's come from ... they used to be 106 / 113.
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  #22  
Old 05-29-19, 07:53 AM
LucMurphy134 LucMurphy134 is offline
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....another thought, rather than eliminate weights...why not think about forfeits in duals differently? Must a forfeit be 6 points?
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  #23  
Old 05-29-19, 07:58 AM
Blast82.5 Blast82.5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LucMurphy134 View Post
....another thought, rather than eliminate weights...why not think about forfeits in duals differently? Must a forfeit be 6 points?
I don't think changing the value of the Forfeit makes much difference.

Hypothetically:
Say a FFT is worth fewer points (3 or 4) ... coaches will be incentivized to forfeit if they think their guy is likely to lose badly.
Say a FFT is woth more points (8 or 9) ... coaches will be incentivized to throw "non-Varsity-level" guys out there and have them get killed.

Which is better for the sport? Neither. The lack of enough (qualified) guys on the team is still an issue.
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  #24  
Old 05-29-19, 08:23 AM
chidy chidy is offline
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11 weights for duals
14 for tournaments
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  #25  
Old 05-29-19, 09:24 AM
jmog jmog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast82.5 View Post
I don't think changing the value of the Forfeit makes much difference.

Hypothetically:
Say a FFT is worth fewer points (3 or 4) ... coaches will be incentivized to forfeit if they think their guy is likely to lose badly.
Say a FFT is woth more points (8 or 9) ... coaches will be incentivized to throw "non-Varsity-level" guys out there and have them get killed.

Which is better for the sport? Neither. The lack of enough (qualified) guys on the team is still an issue.
Very true, see it in "youth duals" that have FFs as 3 or 4. It incentivizes avoiding a good wrestler and FF around them.

In HS, coaches are already putting "non-varsity level" kids out there with it being 6 points in hoping they only get TFd or MDd. Make it more than 6 and it will only be worse.
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  #26  
Old 05-29-19, 09:40 AM
coach_r coach_r is offline
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Whatever is done (if anything), I hope they make an odd number of weight classes to completely eliminate all the dual meet tie breaking criteria.
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  #27  
Old 05-29-19, 10:12 AM
jmog jmog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coach_r View Post
Whatever is done (if anything), I hope they make an odd number of weight classes to completely eliminate all the dual meet tie breaking criteria.
Odd number wouldn't eliminate tie breaker criteria, but would make it less likely to be needed.

If there were 1 less weight class (13). If one team wins 7 matches all by minor and the other team wins 6 matches (5 minor 1 pin) that is still 21-21.

Could be 3 minors and 3 majors for the team with 6 wins and get the same result.
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  #28  
Old 05-29-19, 10:25 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmog View Post
Odd number wouldn't eliminate tie breaker criteria, but would make it less likely to be needed.

If there were 1 less weight class (13). If one team wins 7 matches all by minor and the other team wins 6 matches (5 minor 1 pin) that is still 21-21.

Could be 3 minors and 3 majors for the team with 6 wins and get the same result.
That would not be the decider. The point total would not matter. It would be which team won more matches head to head. In your example, the team with 7 wins to 6 would be the winner.
They might add in "something" for a team with FMC or USC but that could be figured out easily enough.
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  #29  
Old 05-30-19, 08:49 AM
tantal tantal is offline
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I don't like the idea of eliminating weight classes. There may be something to changing them up a bit, but why take opportunity away, particularly from the little guys? 110 is WAY too high of a starting point. I think the old system where we started at 103 was fine. I'd even support a 98 pound weight class like they had many years ago. If teams struggle to fill weights, then they simply need to do a better job of getting kids out to wrestle. Someone had the idea of having fewer weights for duals and keep 14 weights for tournaments - that might not a bad idea, especially for the small schools. I just hate to see less opportunity.
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  #30  
Old 05-30-19, 09:52 AM
LucMurphy134 LucMurphy134 is offline
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I’m still trying to wrap my head around the argument of cutting weight classes as being good for the development of the sport, yet it’s clear that my opinion isn’t shared by the majority of the posters on the thread. I maintain it’s taking away opportunities for kids too small to compete in many other sports at the HS level (FB, Baseball, LAX, etc.). Brackets for national level tournaments in the lightweights are often the deepest and most competitive. Many of these late- blooming kids are wrestlers first and only wrestlers, year-round committed wrestlers, who without the opportunity to compete in High School will either quit the sport, or find other avenues to compete (i.e. clubs).

Other sports such as hockey, swimming, gymnastics, even soccer, increasingly elite kids are not competing for their local school in favor of clubs where they can find better competition. Why would a 100lb freshman or sophomore who has had success throughout his youth/MS career find it worthwhile to wrestle JV for a few years, when he could train year round with a club wrestle a schedule of regional /national events? We see this at the MS level all the time for the same reasons. Hell, David Taylor was an undersized 106lber as a sophomore (I know – Graham could be argued is a club). What about frosh...Steibers, C. Palmer, J. Clark, Nato? More and more it’s not HS state titles that colleges look at in recruitment anymore as state titles are often watered down with multiple divisions in many states, rather it’s performance in national events so why wouldn’t the best kids not train to compete at that level.

Oh, one more thought, if you think “holdbacks “ are a heated topic on this thread now, just wait ….
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