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  #1  
Old 10-26-17, 07:22 AM
XCFan98 XCFan98 is offline
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Troy Course?

So, what do you hear about the Troy course this year? What is the latest?
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  #2  
Old 10-26-17, 08:45 AM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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It's still flat.
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  #3  
Old 10-26-17, 09:38 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Going today. Should be in good condition
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  #4  
Old 10-26-17, 09:47 AM
Finishtiming Finishtiming is offline
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Lower section footing is kind of rough.
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  #5  
Old 10-26-17, 09:57 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finishtiming View Post
Lower section footing is kind of rough.
Grass is long, course is lumpy in a lot of places, but it is lined.

Which makes me believe the grass will not be cut again before the race.
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  #6  
Old 10-26-17, 10:15 AM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
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It all depends on the wind.
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  #7  
Old 10-26-17, 10:20 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Grass is long, course is lumpy in a lot of places, but it is lined.

Which makes me believe the grass will not be cut again before the race.
Par for the course

I hope everyone enjoys this. Might be the last one.
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  #8  
Old 10-26-17, 10:54 AM
southpaw69 southpaw69 is offline
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How much rain are we expected to get and how will it impact the course conditions?
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  #9  
Old 10-26-17, 11:12 AM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Just plan on running with the daggers and let your kids have at it!
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  #10  
Old 10-26-17, 11:59 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
Par for the course

I hope everyone enjoys this. Might be the last one.
Best spectator course in the state of Ohio. I can watch almost the entire race as a coach.

I pray to god they don't move it to Cedarville. Cedarville is the worst spectator course I have been to in a long time. Truer to a xc course than most courses, but in reality it does not get you ready for the state meet.

They need to move the Troy Regional to a race track. How about KilKare speedway or I believe there is a Racetrack in Hamilton. Need something ridiculously flat and fast.
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  #11  
Old 10-26-17, 12:17 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Best spectator course in the state of Ohio. I can watch almost the entire race as a coach.

I pray to god they don't move it to Cedarville. Cedarville is the worst spectator course I have been to in a long time. Truer to a xc course than most courses, but in reality it does not get you ready for the state meet.

They need to move the Troy Regional to a race track. How about KilKare speedway or I believe there is a Racetrack in Hamilton. Need something ridiculously flat and fast.
1. I see alot of the races at cedarville. THe only part that is not friendly is the first mile loop

2. Move regionals to a race track just because the state meet is at a racetrack?
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  #12  
Old 10-26-17, 12:20 PM
Running Man 101 Running Man 101 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Best spectator course in the state of Ohio. I can watch almost the entire race as a coach.
Might agree with you on that point. Don't think it is much of a cross country course, but certainly is good from a spectator POV.

VOA is worse than Cedarville to watch from, by FAR.
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  #13  
Old 10-26-17, 12:34 PM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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I have fond memories of watching from the bridge.

Last edited by yj_runfan; 10-27-17 at 07:16 AM..
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  #14  
Old 10-26-17, 12:53 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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^^^THey dont let you on the bridge anymore.
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  #15  
Old 10-26-17, 03:01 PM
Knights1984 Knights1984 is offline
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You need to know the shortcut to the mile at Cedarville. This area doesn't need another track on grass.
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  #16  
Old 10-26-17, 03:17 PM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Spectator friendly courses are nice and all, but if the option is to run a spectator friendly course or a challenging course that is better for the runners, the latter should win out every time.
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  #17  
Old 10-26-17, 03:18 PM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
Move regionals to a race track just because the state meet is at a racetrack?
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  #18  
Old 10-26-17, 08:49 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Ran the course today. It is in great condition.
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  #19  
Old 10-27-17, 09:00 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOTT View Post
Spectator friendly courses are nice and all, but if the option is to run a spectator friendly course or a challenging course that is better for the runners, the latter should win out every time.
I think a physically challenging course for the regional can be a disadvantage at the state meet. The old Lancaster Cross Country course was one of my favorite XC courses, and a great one to run in the regular season. But a lot of older coaches here in the Central District think it was a net disadvantage for our athletes.
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  #20  
Old 10-27-17, 09:48 AM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
I think a physically challenging course for the regional can be a disadvantage at the state meet. The old Lancaster Cross Country course was one of my favorite XC courses, and a great one to run in the regular season. But a lot of older coaches here in the Central District think it was a net disadvantage for our athletes.
My point was not that challenging courses are always better for athletes but rather IF the option lies between a challenging course that is good for runners and a spectator friendly course, the challenging course should be the obvious choice.
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  #21  
Old 10-27-17, 10:02 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Why would a challenging course affect you a week later?
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  #22  
Old 10-27-17, 11:37 AM
galesxc galesxc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
Why would a challenging course affect you a week later?
I struggle with this also... if effort is a constant (that is, if we assume guys give their best effort in the Regional regardless...), it seems to me the variables in the equation would be "difficulty" and the "resulting time". A tougher course would simply yield a slower time at the same effort. And wouldn't that "same" effort have the same impact on the following week's race?

Having said that, I'm still not sure... the downhills especially seem to cause some lingering quad soreness, especially in our younger, less developed guys... a few guys also seem to experience a few days of extra calf soreness, especially if the ground is soft. This generally passes by weds/thurs, but I guess I could understand a lingering mental impact.

The current Lancaster course is less demanding than the old regional course, but still a different test than most courses in our area. The current course is designed to include long, sweeping downhills to pay back the on the uphill climbs and is slightly net downhill. The Ohio Division teams that ran their OCC meet at Lancaster seemed to perform well in last week's District races.

So... I guess I'm still trying to sort this one out in my mind...
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  #23  
Old 10-27-17, 11:47 AM
Eye89 Eye89 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
I think a physically challenging course for the regional can be a disadvantage at the state meet. The old Lancaster Cross Country course was one of my favorite XC courses, and a great one to run in the regular season. But a lot of older coaches here in the Central District think it was a net disadvantage for our athletes.


Does not compute. At the time Lancaster was a regional site, the State meet was at Scioto Downs. Those two sites are more similar than dissimilar with their rolling terrain. Actually having competed on both courses back in the 80s, I always felt 2nd mile loop at Scioto Downs was more challenging than anything at Lancaster.


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  #24  
Old 10-27-17, 11:53 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eye89 View Post
Does not compute. At the time Lancaster was a regional site, the State meet was at Scioto Downs. Those two sites are more similar than dissimilar with their rolling terrain. Actually having competed on both courses back in the 80s, I always felt 2nd mile loop at Scioto Downs was more challenging than anything at Lancaster.


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agreed that last mile at scioto was tough. To me its about muscle memory. We run track on grass and if you run tough courses your nuerological system does not train its muscles to turn over fast. It teaches force. 2 different things.
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  #25  
Old 10-27-17, 01:18 PM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by galesxc View Post
I struggle with this also... if effort is a constant (that is, if we assume guys give their best effort in the Regional regardless...), it seems to me the variables in the equation would be "difficulty" and the "resulting time". A tougher course would simply yield a slower time at the same effort. And wouldn't that "same" effort have the same impact on the following week's race?

Having said that, I'm still not sure... the downhills especially seem to cause some lingering quad soreness, especially in our younger, less developed guys... a few guys also seem to experience a few days of extra calf soreness, especially if the ground is soft. This generally passes by weds/thurs, but I guess I could understand a lingering mental impact.

The current Lancaster course is less demanding than the old regional course, but still a different test than most courses in our area. The current course is designed to include long, sweeping downhills to pay back the on the uphill climbs and is slightly net downhill. The Ohio Division teams that ran their OCC meet at Lancaster seemed to perform well in last week's District races.

So... I guess I'm still trying to sort this one out in my mind...
There are absolutely physiological principles involved in some of what you mention that could play a factor on kids' soreness, etc. In particular, long downhills will increase quad soreness due to eccentric muscle contractions. Contracting the muscle during an elongated state will cause quite a bit of trauma and thus sore muscles: the quads in particular because they are the largest muscle group in an elongated state during downhill running.

In terms of effort, though, I tend to agree with you. Either you are giving your best effort or you aren't and different courses will reflect that with different times.
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  #26  
Old 10-27-17, 02:54 PM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
agreed that last mile at scioto was tough. To me its about muscle memory. We run track on grass and if you run tough courses your nuerological system does not train its muscles to turn over fast. It teaches force. 2 different things.
Kids run "track on grass" courses all season long. Do you really think that running a regional race on a "tough" course the week before running a flat(ish) course such as NTR is going to make a big difference and retrain the muscles to not turn over as fast? I don't buy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SOTT View Post
There are absolutely physiological principles involved in some of what you mention that could play a factor on kids' soreness, etc. In particular, long downhills will increase quad soreness due to eccentric muscle contractions. Contracting the muscle during an elongated state will cause quite a bit of trauma and thus sore muscles: the quads in particular because they are the largest muscle group in an elongated state during downhill running.
I agree with your theory but I don't think that there is any regional course with enough total downhill distance to make that discernible of a difference a week later.

The fact is that everyone will be lining up on the same course at State and be facing the same conditions. The playing field, so to speak, will be level.
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  #27  
Old 10-27-17, 06:30 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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raining good here in Troy.
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  #28  
Old 10-27-17, 06:45 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOTT View Post
My point was not that challenging courses are always better for athletes but rather IF the option lies between a challenging course that is good for runners and a spectator friendly course, the challenging course should be the obvious choice.
I am all for making the course good for the runners. Even if it sometimes makes it more challenging for me as a coach.
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  #29  
Old 10-27-17, 07:15 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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I don't think that running at the old Lancaster course* necessarily disadvantaged everyone or even most of the runners who ran there. But I do feel for some it was a disadvantage. So to answer some questions...

A race can absolutely have an effect a week later if you were pushing yourself near your limits. Actually every 5k is still going to have an effect a week later. There is a reason conferences in the NCAA mostly have their meets two weeks ahead of the regional meets. Most of the time that effect is quite small, but it is still probably measurable. But if you pushed really hard it can absolutely still be affecting you a week later.

Energy use is absolutely not constant just because perceived effort is constant. Lots of factors play into this. Elevation changes are the first one. A course with a lot of elevation changes is going to require more energy than a flat course. At the speeds that the qualifying athletes run at there is no way that most runners could run fast enough to make a flat course as energy intensive as a hillier course. That is just physics and physiology.

Energy use will also be higher if a course is more challenging at the start. In simple terms, a big hill in the first mile creates a fatigue load that makes a runner use more energy over the two following flat miles when compared to the energy usage of a runner running two flat miles then a big hill. (I vividly remember having to help demonstrate this in a college biology class.) More physically demanding courses increase the chance of exerting yourself out near your limits and impeding your recovery for the next race.

As SOTT said, running downhills (and to a less extent uphills) increases the chance of muscle strains and greater than normal muscle soreness. Any of these has a chance to make runners slower a week later.

I can't think of a single coaching book I have read that talks about week to week qualifying races that hasn't cautioned about over exertion in the preceding rounds affecting the final race outcome. Everything I have ever read has argued for using the minimum effort needed to get the desired result (whether that is winning or merely qualifying on) unless you know a maximal effort is needed in order to even have a chance to advance.

Again, a maximal effort one week doesn't necessarily mean there will be any significant drop off in performance the following week. But there are certainly cases where such an effort has resulted in poorer performances. Running a more physically challenging course simply increases the chance you will need such an effort.



* I am a big fan of the new Lancaster course. While not as tough as the old regional course, I really think it rewards smart racing. The two loops "across the bridge" in the field provide terrain where it is both favorable and unfavorable to make a move.
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  #30  
Old 10-27-17, 07:55 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Going on hour 3 of some good rain in troy. I might head down in a few hours and check the course
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