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Old 02-25-18, 06:50 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is offline
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Kurt's Response

This past Saturday I received a letter from Kurt Ruffing about the incident at the X game and his response. I was glad that he brought us, as alumni and members of the Elder Community, up to speed but I am underwhelmed by the response thus far. I am somewhat relieved that he indicates that he and the process are not completed. His statement that "students need experiences that expose them to the feelings, perspectives and backgrounds of people who are different from them and are not a part of their everyday lives", however, he said nothing about the minorities that live amongst many who are already members of the Elder Community. What good is it to have our kids go out into other communities to get that "exposure" all the while ignoring the minorities that live within blocks of EHS?

The solution to Elder's reputation problem will not be resolved by white kids behaving well. Others do not notice when one behaves as one should, only when they fail to do so. No, white kids behaving won't do it and, quite frankly, shouldn't be enough. What it will take, is a serious, well planned and well executed initiative to recruit the minority students from West, East and Lower Price Hill, South Fairmont, the West End and every other neighborhood West of Vine Street.

Let's get started on that Kurt. Pronto.
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  #2  
Old 02-25-18, 07:22 PM
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PantherVOR PantherVOR is offline
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I too received Kurt's letter and I thought it was very appropriate for the intended audience. I've known Kurt and his family for most of my life. He is a good man with a good heart and a strong moral foundation. I trust him to lead Elder through this disgraceful event and bring us out on the other side a better institution for having gone through it.
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Old 02-25-18, 07:33 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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I agree with both Mojo and VOR. If all Elder does is bring in speakers to lecture students, that's a complete waste of time. We all know, nobody pays attention during assemblies or if they do, the message is usually forgotten by the end of the day. Of all the assemblies we ever had, I only remember the guy from the World's Strongest man crumpling up a frying pan like a piece of paper... No idea what the actual message was.

However, like VOR I trust that Elder has more substantive plans in place they're not ready to disclose publicly. Elder took a beating in the news, and it could've actually been far worse. If this ever happens again, it could be a death nail for the school. With stakes so high, there's no way they're just gonna do lip service on this.
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Old 02-25-18, 07:43 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is offline
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He is a good man from a good family. I too know the Ruffings very well. Mrs. Ruffing chased me around the gym floor on many occasions and I got to know Kathy, Bud and Kurt, as well as Fr. Kirk, very well. He will do the right thing if people speak up and guide him. It must come from people in the Elder Community, not from people at X, LaSalle or further afield. Fr. Phil Sehr might be one of the people from which he should take counsel. Fr, Sehr grew up in Price Hill and graduated from St. William. I do not know if he went directly to the seminary or, like many of his contemporaries (Fr. Walsh, Fr. Rudemiller, Fr. Berke, Chet and others his age or slightly older than he is) went to Elder first. What makes him uniquely qualified is that he is a typical German Catholic boy from Price Hill but, after shepherding his childhood parish of St. William, he volunteered to lead St. Josephs in the West End (a predominantly African-American parish), where he tried to encourage the St. Joes graduates to enroll at Elder. He should have a good idea as to why they went elsewhere and what can be done to win them over.

Fr. John Amankwah should also be encouraged to take a very visible role at Elder during school liturgies and elsewhere. He is not a man obsessed with race and is among the most colorblind people I know. He might however be convinced that there would be a great benefit to the Elder Community for him to become more involved. Perhaps the Elder Community and especially the student body could embrace his effort to build a school in Ghana.

These are the things that would have the deepest and most expedient positive change.

Last edited by Purplemojo; 02-25-18 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 02-25-18, 07:44 PM
jjk10 jjk10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
This past Saturday I received a letter from Kurt Ruffing about the incident at the X game and his response. I was glad that he brought us, as alumni and members of the Elder Community, up to speed but I am underwhelmed by the response thus far. I am somewhat relieved that he indicates that he and the process are not completed. His statement that "students need experiences that expose them to the feelings, perspectives and backgrounds of people who are different from them and are not a part of their everyday lives", however, he said nothing about the minorities that live amongst many who are already members of the Elder Community. What good is it to have our kids go out into other communities to get that "exposure" all the while ignoring the minorities that live within blocks of EHS?

The solution to Elder's reputation problem will not be resolved by white kids behaving well. Others do not notice when one behaves as one should, only when they fail to do so. No, white kids behaving won't do it and, quite frankly, shouldn't be enough. What it will take, is a serious, well planned and well executed initiative to recruit the minority students from West, East and Lower Price Hill, South Fairmont, the West End and every other neighborhood West of Vine Street.

Let's get started on that Kurt. Pronto.

Are you talking about all of the folks they help feed at Thanksgiving? Pretty sure they did not get ignored !
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Old 02-25-18, 07:57 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is offline
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Originally Posted by jjk10 View Post
Are you talking about all of the folks they help feed at Thanksgiving? Pretty sure they did not get ignored !
Great! Our kids fed them a holiday meal, just as the Free Store or St Vincent DePaul or a hundred other charities would do. If you think that is that big a deal, or in any way is enough, then that is the problem.

Check out the commercial "Don't You Forget About Me" if you think holiday giving (as good as the intention is) is all that big a deal.

If most of the Elder Community feels as you do, the problem is obvious.
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Old 02-25-18, 10:32 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
He is a good man from a good family. I too know the Ruffings very well. Mrs. Ruffing chased me around the gym floor on many occasions and I got to know Kathy, Bud and Kurt, as well as Fr. Kirk, very well. He will do the right thing if people speak up and guide him. It must come from people in the Elder Community, not from people at X, LaSalle or further afield. Fr. Phil Sehr might be one of the people from which he should take counsel. Fr, Sehr grew up in Price Hill and graduated from St. William. I do not know if he went directly to the seminary or, like many of his contemporaries (Fr. Walsh, Fr. Rudemiller, Fr. Berke, Chet and others his age or slightly older than he is) went to Elder first. What makes him uniquely qualified is that he is a typical German Catholic boy from Price Hill but, after shepherding his childhood parish of St. William, he volunteered to lead St. Josephs in the West End (a predominantly African-American parish), where he tried to encourage the St. Joes graduates to enroll at Elder. He should have a good idea as to why they went elsewhere and what can be done to win them over.

Fr. John Amankwah should also be encouraged to take a very visible role at Elder during school liturgies and elsewhere. He is not a man obsessed with race and is among the most colorblind people I know. He might however be convinced that there would be a great benefit to the Elder Community for him to become more involved. Perhaps the Elder Community and especially the student body could embrace his effort to build a school in Ghana.

These are the things that would have the deepest and most expedient positive change.
Maybe reach out to Ruffing with your ideas.
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Old 02-25-18, 10:34 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Are you talking about all of the folks they help feed at Thanksgiving? Pretty sure they did not get ignored !
That does nothing. Most kids only do that as required Service Hours for a Religon Class.
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Old 02-26-18, 07:57 AM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
He is a good man from a good family. I too know the Ruffings very well. Mrs. Ruffing chased me around the gym floor on many occasions and I got to know Kathy, Bud and Kurt, as well as Fr. Kirk, very well. He will do the right thing if people speak up and guide him. It must come from people in the Elder Community, not from people at X, LaSalle or further afield. Fr. Phil Sehr might be one of the people from which he should take counsel. Fr, Sehr grew up in Price Hill and graduated from St. William. I do not know if he went directly to the seminary or, like many of his contemporaries (Fr. Walsh, Fr. Rudemiller, Fr. Berke, Chet and others his age or slightly older than he is) went to Elder first. What makes him uniquely qualified is that he is a typical German Catholic boy from Price Hill but, after shepherding his childhood parish of St. William, he volunteered to lead St. Josephs in the West End (a predominantly African-American parish), where he tried to encourage the St. Joes graduates to enroll at Elder. He should have a good idea as to why they went elsewhere and what can be done to win them over.

Fr. John Amankwah should also be encouraged to take a very visible role at Elder during school liturgies and elsewhere. He is not a man obsessed with race and is among the most colorblind people I know. He might however be convinced that there would be a great benefit to the Elder Community for him to become more involved. Perhaps the Elder Community and especially the student body could embrace his effort to build a school in Ghana.

These are the things that would have the deepest and most expedient positive change.
That's just silly. He should take advice from all walks of life, from every source he can get. Be it Tim Reilly from St. X, Santa Ono in Canada, random John Doe from West End. If it's a good idea, he should be listening.
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Old 02-26-18, 01:39 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is offline
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
That's just silly. He should take advice from all walks of life, from every source he can get. Be it Tim Reilly from St. X, Santa Ono in Canada, random John Doe from West End. If it's a good idea, he should be listening.
No surprise that you would criticize anything I would come up with. I understand that it is your thing.

So, you would recommend taking a year or so and send some people to some diversity programs, attend some seminars and conferences and then maybe have some more speakers come to speak to a number of assemblies of the predominately white student body. Great plan. Its been done for decades. The only progress is made person to person and I gave two examples of people within the community already that have that expertise and personal experiences and personal contacts that could make an immediate difference. We could do that or, as you suggest, maybe we could do some studies and have some outsiders come up with some ideas promulgated for generic model communities and then devise a plan to implement this top down strategy rather then simply putting our Christian values to work and engage people in our community one on one.

Good plan Taco! I am guessing you work for the government.
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Old 02-26-18, 01:57 PM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
No surprise that you would criticize anything I would come up with. I understand that it is your thing.
No surprise you had an irrational overreaction to a sensible post. I understand that is your thing.

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So, you would recommend taking a year or so and send some people to some diversity programs, attend some seminars and conferences and then maybe have some more speakers come to speak to a number of assemblies of the predominately white student body. Great plan. Its been done for decades.
No, I would not recommend that. Could you please point to the part of my post where I said Elder should continue to do what they've been doing for decades without making changes? Or point to the part of my post where I mentioned diversity programs, attending seminars and conferences? I'll patiently wait.

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The only progress is made person to person and I gave two examples of people within the community already that have that expertise and personal experiences and personal contacts that could make an immediate difference.
I disagree that is the only progress. I agree both people you mentioned would be great for Elder to reach out.

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We could do that or, as you suggest, maybe we could do some studies
I did not suggest that Elder could do some studies. Please point out my post where I suggested that. I'll patiently wait.

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have some outsiders come up with some ideas promulgated for generic model communities and then devise a plan to implement this top down strategy rather then simply putting our Christian values to work and engage people in our community one on one.
I'm not surprised you decided to put words into my mouth during another one of your patented irrational rants. I didn't say Elder should have outsiders come up with ideas. I simply said Elder shouldn't JUST listen to their echo chamber. Why would you want to exclude voices who have experience or success with diversity? That's moronic. They should listen to any ideas from anyone. St. Xavier has had great success at diversity, if Tim Reilly wants to offer some ideas or suggestions for Elder to help invite diversity, Ruffing absolutely should listen. Santa Ono has already written a beautiful letter regarding the issue and how he has dealt with racism growing up. He also had to deal with the fiasco of a white UC police officer shooting a black man (and since you're an irrational nut job I know you'll think I'm comparing the Ray Tensing shooting to the Elder SS situation, I'm not) while he was UC's president. Given they are both school leaders and dealt/are dealing with racially charged situations, he might have something to say that Ruffing could learn from.
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Old 02-26-18, 02:13 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
No surprise you had an irrational overreaction to a sensible post. I understand that is your thing.



No, I would not recommend that. Could you please point to the part of my post where I said Elder should continue to do what they've been doing for decades without making changes? Or point to the part of my post where I mentioned diversity programs, attending seminars and conferences? I'll patiently wait.



I disagree that is the only progress. I agree both people you mentioned would be great for Elder to reach out.



I did not suggest that Elder could do some studies. Please point out my post where I suggested that. I'll patiently wait.



I'm not surprised you decided to put words into my mouth during another one of your patented irrational rants. I didn't say Elder should have outsiders come up with ideas. I simply said Elder shouldn't JUST listen to their echo chamber. Why would you want to exclude voices who have experience or success with diversity? That's moronic. They should listen to any ideas from anyone. St. Xavier has had great success at diversity, if Tim Reilly wants to offer some ideas or suggestions for Elder to help invite diversity, Ruffing absolutely should listen. Santa Ono has already written a beautiful letter regarding the issue and how he has dealt with racism growing up. He also had to deal with the fiasco of a white UC police officer shooting a black man (and since you're an irrational nut job I know you'll think I'm comparing the Ray Tensing shooting to the Elder SS situation, I'm not) while he was UC's president. Given they are both school leaders and dealt/are dealing with racially charged situations, he might have something to say that Ruffing could learn from.
So, talk about putting words in one's mouth, I never said that Kurt shouldn't listen to outsiders, or that he should just listen to the "echo chamber", in fact, the two people I suggested could not be further outside the "echo chamber". What they do have, however, which distant outsiders would not have, is experience with the local community that is both the problem and the solution.

This is an urgent matter, that requires prompt and effective engagement. We have the know-how and the personal connections right here and right now, if we have the wisdom to recognize it and the willingness to take advantage of it.

You can make this personal if you want. What I have said in this thread I have been saying for years and if heeded would have taken us where we need to be a long time ago.
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Old 02-26-18, 02:37 PM
Taco MacArthur Taco MacArthur is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
So, talk about putting words in one's mouth, I never said that Kurt shouldn't listen to outsiders,
Hm, let's take a look at your original post in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
He will do the right thing if people speak up and guide him. It must come from people in the Elder Community, not from people at X, LaSalle or further afield.
Yup, you're the only person putting words into other's mouths in this thread. Like I said, that's silly. Elder should be reaching out to any and all resources. Be it from St. X or Vancouver or 5 minutes from campus. If it comes from just the Elder community, it comes from the echo chamber. They need to reach outside the Elder community. Keeping it inside the Elder community is exactly how Elder earned it's reputation in the AA/black community and how things transpired to where they are today.

Quote:
What they do have, however, which distant outsiders would not have, is experience with the local community that is both the problem and the solution.
Yes they do, which is why I agreed with you that Elder should be reaching out to both men.

Quote:
This is an urgent matter, that requires prompt and effective engagement. We have the know-how and the personal connections right here and right now, if we have the wisdom to recognize it and the willingness to take advantage of it.
Again, I agree with you. Unfortunately Elder is fighting against their own history here. Looking back through the history of the school, especially modern history, shows Elder is not prompt and tends to be slow on change. Hopefully this was an eye opener to not just how Elder handles itself with diversity but with promptness in all aspects of the school. Too often Elder has been behind the 8 ball because they took too long to make changes.

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You can make this personal if you want.
You're the one who made it personal.
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Old 02-26-18, 04:10 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
What I have said in this thread I have been saying for years and if heeded would have taken us where we need to be a long time ago.
Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of this involved in any discussion regarding change at Elder on here. It clearly is more about the individual and their ideas being right as opposed to fixing the issues. At some point people need to quit being so stubborn and listen to each other's ideas. The solution is much more important than any one person being right, whether it's trey, Mojo or Pboy.
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Old 02-26-18, 04:12 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
So, talk about putting words in one's mouth, I never said that Kurt shouldn't listen to outsiders, or that he should just listen to the "echo chamber", in fact, the two people I suggested could not be further outside the "echo chamber". What they do have, however, which distant outsiders would not have, is experience with the local community that is both the problem and the solution.

This is an urgent matter, that requires prompt and effective engagement. We have the know-how and the personal connections right here and right now, if we have the wisdom to recognize it and the willingness to take advantage of it.

You can make this personal if you want. What I have said in this thread I have been saying for years and if heeded would have taken us where we need to be a long time ago.
Let’s not mince words, St X’s diversity would be much difft than Elder’s. There’s just not many kids going to X from low income areas. It happens, but most are still middle class, Suburban kids.

And though I agree with your ideas, it’s hard to take you seriously a lot of the time bc you’re such a PH homer. I choose to believe Ruffing isn’t a selfish, lazy, butthead, so he’s probably working out a plan to develop a more diverse student body. However, they don’t necessarily have to be from PH.

I can’t take credit for this, but someone I spoke with had a great idea of offering need based scholarships to 10 students who attend CPS schools in the area. Elder’s going to have to do something big to undo the damage from the X game.
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Old 02-26-18, 04:17 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Unfortunately there seems to be a lot of this involved in any discussion regarding change at Elder on here. It clearly is more about the individual and their ideas being right as opposed to fixing the issues. At some point people need to quit being so stubborn and listen to each other's ideas. The solution is much more important than any one person being right, whether it's trey, Mojo or Pboy.
Itís complicated, but just having assemblies wonít do sh1t. The only way to spur real change is make the student body more diverse.
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Old 02-26-18, 04:36 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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As an alum, I don't want any more letters. I want the plan to be made transparent to me. Not some secret "plan" the admin is working on...be transparent, otherwise, don't bother.

I get a letter, I roll my eyes. Give me something concrete that you are doing.

Nothing else really matters to me at this point. I'll shut up again for a few weeks.
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Old 02-26-18, 06:29 PM
Purplemojo Purplemojo is offline
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Originally Posted by Descartes View Post
Let’s not mince words, St X’s diversity would be much difft than Elder’s. There’s just not many kids going to X from low income areas. It happens, but most are still middle class, Suburban kids...I can’t take credit for this, but someone I spoke with had a great idea of offering need based scholarships to 10 students who attend CPS schools in the area. Elder’s going to have to do something big to undo the damage from the X game.
I know three kids, two black and one white, from low income, single parent families, who go to X, so don't generalize. St. X does offer financial aid/scholarships to low income families and that is a major source of their minority population. The idea you shared would be a big help but I hope we don't forget the minority kids at parochial, inner-city schools (including Res, St. Lawrence and Holy Family).

Last edited by Purplemojo; 02-26-18 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 02-26-18, 07:02 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by Purplemojo View Post
I know three kids, two black and one white, from low income, single parent families, who go to X, so don't generalize. St. X does offer financial aid/scholarships to low income families and that is a major source of their minority population. They idea you shared would be a big help but I hope we don't forget the minority kids at parochial, inner-city schools (including Res, St. Lawrence and Holy Family).
Didn’t you see where I said that wasn’t always the case? Of course, there are some, not many.

If you want to include feeder kids, the scholarships have to be open to everyone. The goal should be a diversified student base, but only giving them explicitly to minority students is a bit tacky. At least offering them to CPS students is a little more subtle.
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Old 02-27-18, 10:42 AM
Pantherontheporch Pantherontheporch is offline
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Someone mentioned in another thread that Elder has been losing Price Hill kids to LaSalle and other schools; presumably some of these kids live within walking distance to Elder. As I donít live in Cincy I had not known this, but if I had I would have presumed the main reason has been that LaSalle has accepted vouchers for many years and Elder has not. Of course, this reason now has been eliminated., and one would think that Elderís acceptance of vouchers would cause not just Price Hill minority parents but all Price Hill parents (and those from surrounding areas) with financial need to consider sending their sons to Elder.
But since it turns out that part of the reason Elder has been losing these kids is because Elder in fact has a negative reputation with Price Hill parents who are minorities, then as others have said this is an issue that absolutely needs to be addressed in concrete, meaningful ways. Inertia on this matter simply is not an option. Going forward, absent some special circumstance, Elder simply should not lose these kids to LaSalle.
Of my graduating class of 367, six were African-American (only two lived relatively close to Elder) and one was Asian; not very high percentages. Hispanics? Cero. Since the ethnic makeup of the parishes close to Elder is quite different from that of my day, I would guess (and I may be wrong) that currently the percentage of the student body who are minorities has to be higher now even with the current negative perception of Elder among minority parents in those areas. Just how high, I donít know. But if Elder is successful in persuading these parents to send their sons to Elder instead of LaSalle or elsewhere, of course Elder will become even more diverse. I say that is a good thing.
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Old 02-27-18, 11:15 AM
JElder JElder is offline
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So basically Elder did absolutely nothing other than have a few key note speakers, buy a lunch, and hand out some demerits... I will be withholding my donations to the school unless I see some very real change.
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Old 02-27-18, 11:28 AM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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So basically Elder did absolutely nothing other than have a few key note speakers, buy a lunch, and hand out some demerits... I will be withholding my donations to the school unless I see some very real change.
If thatís all they end up doing, thatís pretty fíd up and pathetic. However, changes doesnít happen over night. I have to believe the leadership of the school is smart enough to recognize lip service wonít be enough to mitigate the fallout.
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Old 02-27-18, 11:37 AM
Patchwork Patchwork is offline
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Originally Posted by Pantherontheporch View Post
Someone mentioned in another thread that Elder has been losing Price Hill kids to LaSalle and other schools; presumably some of these kids live within walking distance to Elder. As I donít live in Cincy I had not known this, but if I had I would have presumed the main reason has been that LaSalle has accepted vouchers for many years and Elder has not. Of course, this reason now has been eliminated., and one would think that Elderís acceptance of vouchers would cause not just Price Hill minority parents but all Price Hill parents (and those from surrounding areas) with financial need to consider sending their sons to Elder.
But since it turns out that part of the reason Elder has been losing these kids is because Elder in fact has a negative reputation with Price Hill parents who are minorities, then as others have said this is an issue that absolutely needs to be addressed in concrete, meaningful ways. Inertia on this matter simply is not an option. Going forward, absent some special circumstance, Elder simply should not lose these kids to LaSalle.
Of my graduating class of 367, six were African-American (only two lived relatively close to Elder) and one was Asian; not very high percentages. Hispanics? Cero. Since the ethnic makeup of the parishes close to Elder is quite different from that of my day, I would guess (and I may be wrong) that currently the percentage of the student body who are minorities has to be higher now even with the current negative perception of Elder among minority parents in those areas. Just how high, I donít know. But if Elder is successful in persuading these parents to send their sons to Elder instead of LaSalle or elsewhere, of course Elder will become even more diverse. I say that is a good thing.

Good Example is Victory's Running back this year. Where did he end up?
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Old 02-27-18, 12:03 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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I agree that they need time. But stop with the letters that say "that's not what we're about", "we don't teach that" - we already know that. No one thinks anyone is racist - but alot of people think there's a need in change with inclusion of all sorts. That's the main issue - not alums thinking the students and admin advocate this - we know they don't.

The letters should be talking about an inclusion/outreach plan and that they will be letting us know that plan at some point. If the strategy is letters and no follow up with concrete detail, what's changed?
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  #25  
Old 02-27-18, 12:04 PM
EHS 2001 EHS 2001 is offline
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Has anyone contacted Elder directly with their concerns?
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  #26  
Old 02-27-18, 12:20 PM
Descartes Descartes is offline
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Originally Posted by Patchwork View Post
Good Example is Victory's Running back this year. Where did he end up?
He’s going to Elder. He made a lot of friends on that Victory team.
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  #27  
Old 02-27-18, 12:50 PM
Pantherontheporch Pantherontheporch is offline
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Has anyone contacted Elder directly with their concerns?
Fair enough. Who is the point person on this? What is the best way to voice our concerns and give our $0.02, phone call or e-mail? Thanks.
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  #28  
Old 02-27-18, 01:12 PM
TylerDurden TylerDurden is offline
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Fair enough. Who is the point person on this? What is the best way to voice our concerns and give our $0.02, phone call or e-mail? Thanks.
I would think either would work. Not really too complicated.
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  #29  
Old 02-27-18, 01:14 PM
jjk10 jjk10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Pantherontheporch View Post
Fair enough. Who is the point person on this? What is the best way to voice our concerns and give our $0.02, phone call or e-mail? Thanks.

Go to the Elder web site, all kinds of contact info. Looks like every teacher
has an e-mail address. www.elderhs.org Bottom of page has contact info.
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  #30  
Old 02-27-18, 01:28 PM
Pantherontheporch Pantherontheporch is offline
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Go to the Elder web site, all kinds of contact info. Looks like every teacher
has an e-mail address. www.elderhs.org Bottom of page has contact info.
Yes, of course, but has Ruffing put one or two persons in charge of addressing this situation? Sure, he will be involved if he has. Or has he put himself in charge? I just want to contact the appropriate person.
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