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  #31  
Old 02-11-18, 10:07 PM
darthmalice darthmalice is offline
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Dilly dilly...
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  #32  
Old 02-11-18, 10:11 PM
eliwes eliwes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruiser_96 View Post
And now 10:04p. An hour; possibly two hours to get home, fall asleep, and be at school by 7am!
its not about you its all about the money. better when they had the duals at Wadsworth. done by 6pm
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  #33  
Old 02-11-18, 11:51 PM
bigjr79 bigjr79 is offline
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Told you so Just saying
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  #34  
Old 02-12-18, 06:26 AM
Goalsetting Goalsetting is offline
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Originally Posted by eliwes View Post
graham wins the toss.
and if jd loses you would of pulled the not healthy card like the last time. get over yourself.
Take the loss and move on! Stickley had missed a month of practice but he still stepped on the line in their 1st meeting against the ever so dangerous Andonian! It is what it is! Stickley was just a bit in better (mat) shape this time and it made the difference!
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  #35  
Old 02-12-18, 06:41 AM
Huge Huge is offline
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Eds vs Grham was great. What a day, watched my Kent State Golden Flashes up set Central Mi. Then OSU vs. Xichigan including Adam Coon's stunning upset then SPG / STED. Wow! Bummed that a Eds lost but they needed heavy or 182 and lost both. But 138, 145 were great matches as expected and many more. I'd love to see SPG in D1 for good but only if it includes the individual tourney. Mann would that make things so much more interesting. One other thought. Abounader is closing the gap on Mymar and Bo Nickal, he could pulls Jagers and at least make the finals.
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  #36  
Old 02-12-18, 07:02 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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It's 7:02am on Monday. School still hasn't started yet.
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  #37  
Old 02-12-18, 11:23 AM
tantal tantal is offline
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does anyone know why in the world Wauseon forfeited ALL of their big boys against Canfield? is that result correct?
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  #38  
Old 02-12-18, 11:33 AM
bulldowg_Wrestling19 bulldowg_Wrestling19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tantal View Post
does anyone know why in the world Wauseon forfeited ALL of their big boys against Canfield? is that result correct?
Probably because they had the dual locked up and didn't want to risk injury for the finals.
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  #39  
Old 02-12-18, 11:36 AM
simkon simkon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tantal View Post
does anyone know why in the world Wauseon forfeited ALL of their big boys against Canfield? is that result correct?
My neighbor wrestles 285 for Canfield, perhaps I can ask him. I think they more than likely forefeited either because those are most of Canfield's best wrestlers and they did not think they could win or the match was already decided.

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  #40  
Old 02-12-18, 11:47 AM
simkon simkon is offline
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It was 38-4, the Wauseon coach said he didn't want to risk injuries. The Canfield coach said he was disappointed but said honestly Canfield would have won most of those match ups either way as those were some of the best wrestlers on the Canfield team. However he said he understood why the other coach forefeited.
So basically either way the end result would have been similar even without the forefeits.
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  #41  
Old 02-12-18, 11:58 AM
CBHS.net CBHS.net is offline
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If I were Ed's I would've wrestled up 195 (as did Graham).

That guy Graham put out at 195 didn't even want to be out there, so I'm sure Ed's had a quality back-up to insert at 195.

That may have impacted the match differently.

Also, Graham had a better clock awareness. Esp at 138 and HWT with late scores.
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  #42  
Old 02-12-18, 01:26 PM
eliwes eliwes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goalsetting View Post
Take the loss and move on! Stickley had missed a month of practice but he still stepped on the line in their 1st meeting against the ever so dangerous Andonian! It is what it is! Stickley was just a bit in better (mat) shape this time and it made the difference!
yes ed's wrestlers take the loss and move on. they don't bring up injuries and missed practices as an excuse to why they lost. end of story.
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  #43  
Old 02-12-18, 01:34 PM
Huge Huge is offline
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I don't think any of the posters on here wrestle for eds or Graham so anyone making excuses or mentioning extenuating circumstances is just a fan weighing in. I mean isn't that whole point? We are all here because out in the normal world at work or with family and friends no one gets how much we are into this sport. So appreciate each other and how fun it is to argue, debate, and talk smack. And remember what happens out there good or bad has nothing to do with us ( unless it's your kid them ill give you that you've invested in them)
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  #44  
Old 02-12-18, 01:36 PM
eliwes eliwes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tantal View Post
does anyone know why in the world Wauseon forfeited ALL of their big boys against Canfield? is that result correct?
seems not fair to both schools wrestlers who practiced all year, drive to Columbus with family /friends and they forfeit. I believe if the wrestler was healthy they should wrestle. shouldn't the wrestler that practiced all year have a voice in the decision? the coach should know to be the best you have to wrestle the best. sad
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  #45  
Old 02-12-18, 02:03 PM
Dfoxfan37 Dfoxfan37 is offline
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I agree with the forfeits. Especially the 170 match kids are ranked 2 & 3. Hmm I guess we’ll have to wait another month to see if they run into each other. I guess it’s just how it works out. Stinks for the kids and the people who paid to see these matches.
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  #46  
Old 02-12-18, 02:05 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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I think their are two trains of thought here...

1. The goal is to win a dual. It's not about individuals. It's not about mat time. It's not about improving. It's about winning the dual. Ultimately, that's the goal. Once that goal is accomplished you can do nothing but put your team (the individuals remaining) at risk for future duals. This is likely the Wauseon coaches thought process.

2. The goal is to eliminate any momentum change.

Different coaches have different beliefs. As a coach at the event, I can tell you that I discussed withdrawing from the event with my staff. A Sunday event with national caliber competition this late in the season, doesn't sit well. This time of the season should be focused on peaking. The best can usually compete with the best week in and week out, but not everyone on the dual team is "the best." Some of these kids were put in positions to compete above their paygrade and risked injury because of it. I understand Olentangy Liberty's stance. I was glad to leave with everyone healthy getting to see some great competition.


Coach Root
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  #47  
Old 02-12-18, 02:35 PM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
I think their are two trains of thought here...

Different coaches have different beliefs. As a coach at the event, I can tell you that I discussed withdrawing from the event with my staff. A Sunday event with national caliber competition this late in the season, doesn't sit well. This time of the season should be focused on peaking. The best can usually compete with the best week in and week out, but not everyone on the dual team is "the best." Some of these kids were put in positions to compete above their paygrade and risked injury because of it. I understand Olentangy Liberty's stance. I was glad to leave with everyone healthy getting to see some great competition.


Coach Root
Just curious. At what point did you have that discussion with your staff?
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  #48  
Old 02-12-18, 03:57 PM
eliwes eliwes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
I think their are two trains of thought here...

1. The goal is to win a dual. It's not about individuals. It's not about mat time. It's not about improving. It's about winning the dual. Ultimately, that's the goal. Once that goal is accomplished you can do nothing but put your team (the individuals remaining) at risk for future duals. This is likely the Wauseon coaches thought process.

2. The goal is to eliminate any momentum change.

Different coaches have different beliefs. As a coach at the event, I can tell you that I discussed withdrawing from the event with my staff. A Sunday event with national caliber competition this late in the season, doesn't sit well. This time of the season should be focused on peaking. The best can usually compete with the best week in and week out, but not everyone on the dual team is "the best." Some of these kids were put in positions to compete above their paygrade and risked injury because of it. I understand Olentangy Liberty's stance. I was glad to leave with everyone healthy getting to see some great competition.


Coach Root
there are teams that don't have forfeits because they put in a sub and you know those subs became state champs. and your wrong it is about the individual, families, friends and more importantly about improving. I cant believe your son would be on a team where you go to watch only to see his
opponents hand raised because he forfeited. coaches that have a number of forfeits should just stay home.
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  #49  
Old 02-12-18, 04:25 PM
roughedge roughedge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Just curious. At what point did you have that discussion with your staff?
Wants that other Catholic school from down south said they was going D1.
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  #50  
Old 02-12-18, 04:54 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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Answering some points here, back to front:

I am going to speculate that LaSalle's staff had conversations about withdrawing from dual team state both in December (before the regional determination) and in January (around the time of seeding).

I do not think it would have had anything to do with the opposition, but more like Olentangy Liberty's decision that it doesn't fit into their strategy: mid-week Wednesday's before league duals on Thursday, plus the high leverage matchups right before the individual event.

The reality is that in a team advancement event, once the advancement has happened, forfeits as a matter of indifference can and do happen (i.e. look at Cadet and Junior Duals in the summer).

In the Wauseon vs. Canfield dual, Wauseon bumped Grunden and Ramirez each up a weight class, then had Torres bumped up at 170 from his state series weight ready to go if needed (I don't know for sure if Torres weighed in at 160 or 170, but he was there). Given that Wauseon got the job done between 113 and 160, they did not need to wrestle any further bouts.

As far as Wauseon forfeiting to Freeman in the final. As a matter of strategy, they put Grunden and Ramirez at 145/152 instead of bumping them. That left them with either a backup, Torres, or nobody at all at 160 (not sure if Torres weighed in 160 or 170, but Torres is their individual state series 160). Strategically it makes sense to not wrestle Freeman. Torres vs. Hivnor is a winnable match, one they won.

The whambulance of Stickley/Andonian from the first time around is just absurd. It was a great match this time around, one that either wrestler could have won.

In the Elyria vs. LaSalle dual:
LaSalle weighed in both Heard's but chose not to wrestle one of them
Elyria did not weigh in Breeding, though he will be available for the individual series
From that, LaSalle chose to forfeit to Burnett and have Wiles wrestle Zuckerman at 132 (who weighed in there)
Having to present first, LaSalle put out Heard at 138 and Elyria forfeited
LaSalle did not have a wrestler left to cover 145, and they don't have a 152.
Elyria then bumped their normal 152 - a projected state placer - Muhammed to 160. As a result, LaSalle forfeited there choosing to put projected state placer Sizemore against a state qualification caliber wrestler in Evans (both starting 160's) at 170. So LaSalle lost 3 points in total instead of 9 between the two weights.
LaSalle then got pins in the back four weight classes, which is the weakness of Elyria's lineup.
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  #51  
Old 02-12-18, 08:23 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Just curious. At what point did you have that discussion with your staff?
I'm not trying to make this about LaSalle, but since you asked, I don't mind answering...

We looked at pulling out before the dual series started and revisited the idea heavily even after winning our region. It wasn't fear of competition. It had more to do with the fact that we were a little banged up and had a nasty run of the flu bug hit last week.

On a side note... with me taking over this season, a schedule was in place that did not originally have the state duals in consideration. We had a dual meet planned with St. Eds the weekend prior to the finals (2/3). With our dual with St. Eds canceled we didn't want to take two weekends off in a row this late in the season.


Coach Root
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  #52  
Old 02-12-18, 08:36 PM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eliwes View Post
there are teams that don't have forfeits because they put in a sub and you know those subs became state champs. and your wrong it is about the individual, families, friends and more importantly about improving. I cant believe your son would be on a team where you go to watch only to see his
opponents hand raised because he forfeited. coaches that have a number of forfeits should just stay home.
While I can agree with you from a philosophical standpoint, the reality is that this is designed to be a dual TEAM event. Most that know me and my staff, no that we have no problem facing stiff competition. I'm not looking to avoid anyone. BUT, I have to disagree with you, the emphasis of this is on the team not the individual. Sometimes you have to sacrifice one so that the group can win. I guess, by your standards we should have wrestled our 160 at 160 and not bumped him up. Maybe we should have stayed home. You may be right. I haven't had a 152 all season. I had a couple others out with the flu. Should the rest of the team have missed out on the opportunity to wrestle because of our forfeits? I don't believe so. I'm not trying to fight with anyone... but I do think you're comparing apples and oranges. Individual tournaments and dual tournaments are not the same. Just my 2 cents.


Coach Root

Last edited by Coach Root; 02-12-18 at 09:19 PM.
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  #53  
Old 02-12-18, 09:27 PM
ShyGuy ShyGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eliwes View Post
coaches that have a number of forfeits should just stay home.

Are you suggesting that a team that made it to the Final Four of the D1 State Duals stay home?
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  #54  
Old 02-12-18, 10:32 PM
CuriousGeorge1 CuriousGeorge1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBHS.net View Post
If I were Ed's I would've wrestled up 195 (as did Graham).

That guy Graham put out at 195 didn't even want to be out there, so I'm sure Ed's had a quality back-up to insert at 195.

That may have impacted the match differently.

Also, Graham had a better clock awareness. Esp at 138 and HWT with late scores.
Everyone knew it would come down to who won the pre match coin flip.

Graham won and choose evens. Which really only mattered for one match. At 195, St. Edward had to check their wrestler in first, since Graham obviously wasn't going to choose the odd matches to be their matches after winning the coin flip toss. So, St. Edward check in Dakota Howard and Graham check in their backup who St. Edward would have scored bonus points on with about a half dozen different backups they have. Just off the top of my head, Henderson, Lisco, Bryant, Cundiff, Cantrell, Pietrowski and I'm sure there are some new guys I don't know about yet. Then Graham bumped their excellent 195 pound Senior, Gage Braun up to 220, where he would normally be undersized, to face St. Edward's very skilled O'Malley. Unfortunatly, O'Malley is quite undersized for 220, so Braun was not at the normal disadvantage you would see for a 195 bumping up to 220. As odd as it may seem, I would actually say that Braun looked to have had a size advantage over O'Malley and certainly a strength advantage. The fact that O'Malley wrestled at 195 just a couple weeks ago so, this was really a match between two 195 pounders explains it a little bit. However, Braun made 195 on THIS day, where as O'Malley did not have that to worry about and should have been on full feed so to speak, as he could have been eating a steak burrito right before weighing in and still been 20 pounds under weight. Braun is just the better wrestler at this point in their careers. Likewise, Graham bumped their normal 220 Junior, Johnny Shaffer, up to heavyweight to face Senior, Luca Santillo. This was another situation where despite being bumped up a weight class the size and strength disadvantage you normally see was not overtly present. Unlike the O'Malley/Braun match, you could tell Santillo was the larger wrestler, but similar to the previous match, the Graham wrestler was just a better wrestler at this point and time and he wisely did not take any unnecessary risks that Santillo could capitialize on with his size.

If St. Edward would have won the toss. They would have made the same choice, picking the even matches. Graham would have had to put out their wrestler first at 195. If they put out Braun, then St. Edward would have put out Howard. If they put out a backup, then St. Edward would have put out Lisco, Cundiff, or which ever one of the quality underclassmen from the Green team they had available and bumped Howard up to 220 to face Braun.

A great dual like this came down to the coin toss, both times!!
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  #55  
Old 02-13-18, 07:44 AM
eliwes eliwes is offline
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[QUOTE=ShyGuy;6985869]Are you suggesting that a team that made it to the Final Four of the D1 State Duals stay home?[/QUOT

I'm suggesting if you don't have a team that can't compete as a team, they should stay home. Graham beats Lasalle 43-16.
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  #56  
Old 02-13-18, 08:14 AM
eliwes eliwes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
While I can agree with you from a philosophical standpoint, the reality is that this is designed to be a dual TEAM event. Most that know me and my staff, no that we have no problem facing stiff competition. I'm not looking to avoid anyone. BUT, I have to disagree with you, the emphasis of this is on the team not the individual. Sometimes you have to sacrifice one so that the group can win. I guess, by your standards we should have wrestled our 160 at 160 and not bumped him up. Maybe we should have stayed home. You may be right. I haven't had a 152 all season. I had a couple others out with the flu. Should the rest of the team have missed out on the opportunity to wrestle because of our forfeits? I don't believe so. I'm not trying to fight with anyone... but I do think you're comparing apples and oranges. Individual tournaments and dual tournaments are not the same. Just my 2 cents.


Coach Root
if your emphasis is on a dual team event, shouldn't you bring a team that can compete? what did you sacrifice so the group could win? why can't an all boys school find 14 boys to wrestle? doesn't a sub give a team a chance to win instead of no chance to win.
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  #57  
Old 02-13-18, 08:38 AM
2x_placer 2x_placer is offline
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Team duals are exactly that, team duals. While I do not agree with all the forfeits it is up to that coaching staff how they handle their team. As for bumping up and avoiding wrestlers I think highly that this exact problem is what is ruining wrestling. The few spectators that commonly watch the sport go for a show and what’s the best show? Good wrestlers wrestling other good wrestlers not just trying to get An extra point here or there. It all comes down win more matches in the dual than the other team and you win.
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  #58  
Old 02-13-18, 08:45 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
I'm not trying to make this about LaSalle, but since you asked, I don't mind answering...

We looked at pulling out before the dual series started and revisited the idea heavily even after winning our region. It wasn't fear of competition. It had more to do with the fact that we were a little banged up and had a nasty run of the flu bug hit last week.

On a side note... with me taking over this season, a schedule was in place that did not originally have the state duals in consideration. We had a dual meet planned with St. Eds the weekend prior to the finals (2/3). With our dual with St. Eds canceled we didn't want to take two weekends off in a row this late in the season.


Coach Root
Thanks for your honesty.

Don't take this the wrong way, but this is exactly what is wrong with this event. I'm not saying you personally, but I see so many people talk about how competitive duals are great for wrestling. (I agree) Yet, coaches aren't putting much stock into this event for one reason or another. In one of my area papers last week, a head coach for a team that participated in Columbus said that this event is less of a priority than their 8 team conference meet. A meet that they've won or finished 2nd in for the last 40 years or so.

I've got no problem with teams not entering if it doesn't fit into what you want to accomplish. Once you enter, stick it out. (Thank you for not dropping out!) It's sad to hear that you actually thought about bailing after winning the region. I'm sorry, even if the flu or injury bug hits, stick it out. Put in kids into empty spots so long as there isn't a serious safety concern.
That part bothers me, but oh well, I'm just a fan.
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  #59  
Old 02-13-18, 09:00 AM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eliwes View Post
if your emphasis is on a dual team event, shouldn't you bring a team that can compete? what did you sacrifice so the group could win? why can't an all boys school find 14 boys to wrestle? doesn't a sub give a team a chance to win instead of no chance to win.
I’ll try and respond the best I can... we came to win. As did several others, Graham included. We brought the best team we could considering the circumstances (i.e. injuries and illness). I don’t think we were the only team there without a projected starter in the lineup. We wrestled what we had against Graham. Our dual against Elyria was different as we had to bump a guy up to get the matchup we want. It did create a forfeit that could have been avoided. The final score made that bump seem unnecessary but heavyweight could have decided the match. It increased our chances of winning the dual. By winning it gave everyone on the team a chance to advance to the semis and get another match. As for the numbers on the team, that’s on me. Our feeder program needs to grow and I need to hit the hallways at the school. We fill 13 out of 14 weights if we are healthy but injuries and the flu hurt us. You also need to realize that the level of wrestling might be too much for some of the younger/less experienced kids. Taking a first year kid to the slaughter may kill any chances of him returning for his sophomore campaign. So, sometimes you have to look at the big picture and same that not taking the sub is better for the kid, just like not wrestling a kid with the flu is better for the kid.

I guess my question back to you: Is it bad for some teams to bring 28 kids to an event knowing many wont ever wrestle? They could help the team in certain situations or fill in if there was an injury. Their family and friends would still be there even though they aren’t likely to wrestle... is that different from a forfeit?

I’m not sure what I did to pick this fight but we did as well as we could have under the circumstances. I love the event. I hate the timing. I’m a realist... could we have done better with our full lineup? Sure. Would it have changed where we ended up? Nope. I apologize to any coaches or teams that were offended that I bumped a kid up creating a forfeit to try and win a dual. I apologize to any coaches or teams that were offended that we didn’t have a full team. But I can’t apologize for holding my kids out that were not ready or healthy enough to compete.


Coach Root

Last edited by Coach Root; 02-13-18 at 09:13 AM.
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  #60  
Old 02-13-18, 09:04 AM
uofrd uofrd is offline
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My view on the comments above are that these teams did a little more than compete as they were top 4 in the state even with the FF's..Congrats to all who laid it on the line and competed. If I were put in the same situation as Wauseon vs Canfield I would've probably done the same thing as there is no need for extra risk at this point in the season due to the time frame of the duals in regards to the Individual state series upcoming.
One last congrats to Graham for bumping up to D1 an competing as it made for the best team event at least that Graham has competed in since the advent of the present state dual series....One question though....How does JJ always get that double sided coin into the refs hands???Hes a magician! (Hoping you all can read sarcasm) Congrats Genoa Wauseon Graham for your titles and all other teams that were there competing at St Johns! ON TO THE INDIVIDUAL TOURNEYS!!
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