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  #31  
Old 02-12-18, 05:40 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Worm02 View Post
I see, though there's gonna be some "bias" behind anything decided by a vote.
Agree, but as I mentioned earlier (maybe on a different thread?), this can be overcome to some degree by allowing teams to pick their slot on the bracket. I think they can do better than this.
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  #32  
Old 02-12-18, 09:45 PM
CleveHoopFan08 CleveHoopFan08 is offline
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They really need to go back to the old way of doing it. The seed meetings AND all the games at the District site.
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  #33  
Old 02-13-18, 08:31 AM
Unlimited Potential Unlimited Potential is offline
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Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
The supposed benefit is that the #1 seed ("best" team) wouldn't have to see the #2 and #3 seeds until the district final. It's actually the traditional seeding format used by all kinds of tournaments (including the NCAA). Unfortunately the seeds and process become meaningless if the coaches either aren't paying close attention to the other teams records/opponents or are biased when voting (see Euclid district).

In regards to the OHSAA making these changes, let's be clear that this was not mandated by the OHSAA but instead unilaterally implemented by the Northeast Ohio District Athletic Board (NEDAB). Almost every other district board in Ohio actually combines districts, seeds from top-to-bottom, and allows every team to choose their spot on the bracket. In my opinion, NEDAB gets it wrong in how they do it, and we know based on stories and quotes, that at least part of the reason why is due to politics.


My understanding of making the brackets auto slotted was to avoid the top seeds playing against the teams with the worst records to eliminate the super blowouts. I don't recall reading anything about it benefiting the top seed. Some of the top seeds would put themselves in a bracket to take an extra game (vs. a bye) to avoid time off. Then no team would want that spot and the lowest seed would be forced to take that spot. This resulted in some ultra bad games.

No doubt the overall process is still very flawed. Looks like many coaches here looked simply at Euclid's record and seeded them low and possibly didn't do homework on Harding. It looks like coaches at Euclid district did some kind of funny business over there as well. VASJ coach i think brought up a good point of having the voting in person makes it less likely for funny business going on.
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  #34  
Old 02-13-18, 08:35 AM
Unlimited Potential Unlimited Potential is offline
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All games at the District site was fun! Double and triple headers at the same site. It was fun as a player back in the day and for fans and coaches as well and allows folks to see more of the games.

And making the super quadrupleheader at CSU for all regional finals would be something I can't imagine anyone would be against!
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  #35  
Old 02-13-18, 08:51 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Originally Posted by Unlimited Potential View Post
I don't recall reading anything about it benefiting the top seed.
I was just saying that this seeding format (1v4, 2v3) is traditional and created to allow the #1 seed in any tournament the opportunity to avoid both of the next best teams until the championship game. Of course it's meaningless if the best team doesn't end up as the #1 seed and/or if the next two best teams aren't seeded #2 and #3.
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  #36  
Old 02-13-18, 09:33 PM
Worm02 Worm02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited Potential View Post
\Looks like many coaches here looked simply at Euclid's record and seeded them low and possibly didn't do homework on Harding.
Translation?
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  #37  
Old 02-13-18, 10:41 PM
James x2 James x2 is offline
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Euclid beats Mentor at Mentor tonight.
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  #38  
Old 02-14-18, 07:50 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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My prediction. Euclid upsets #1 seed Garfield. The culture at Euclid is changing and they are playing with confidence. They have always had talent - now they are getting coaching and leadership. Dangerous team right now that is peaking. If Garfield brings anything less then their A game they are going home.

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  #39  
Old 02-14-18, 08:36 AM
James x2 James x2 is offline
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Euclid played good defense,hit the boards hard and played a very uptempo,fast paced style of basketball.This is not the same team that lost to Garfield earlier this season.
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  #40  
Old 02-14-18, 08:48 AM
James x2 James x2 is offline
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William Saunders had 39 and looked unstoppable all night.TJ has done a great job of coaching these kids.
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  #41  
Old 02-14-18, 09:07 AM
Unlimited Potential Unlimited Potential is offline
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Euclid is capable of making it to Regionals.
It will be tough to beat, Nordonia, Garfield, then Twinsburg/Harding, then Shaker/CCC, but they took Shaker to OT. It will be a fun district. Tons of talent on display

Last edited by Unlimited Potential; 02-14-18 at 12:07 PM.
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  #42  
Old 02-14-18, 11:38 AM
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Eucild plays nordonia 1 dont look ahead,
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  #43  
Old 02-14-18, 12:07 PM
Unlimited Potential Unlimited Potential is offline
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Originally Posted by brian1227 View Post
Eucild plays nordonia 1 dont look ahead,
Good point, note the edit to the above post.
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  #44  
Old 02-14-18, 12:43 PM
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Eucild should beat nordonia easy, but in playoffs anything can happen, they really improved.
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  #45  
Old 02-14-18, 12:56 PM
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Metacomet Metacomet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
My prediction. Euclid upsets #1 seed Garfield. The culture at Euclid is changing and they are playing with confidence. They have always had talent - now they are getting coaching and leadership. Dangerous team right now that is peaking. If Garfield brings anything less then their A game they are going home.

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I agree with this post 100 percent. Euclid is talented, deep and well-coached. They're going to make some team(s) mighty unhappy this March.
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  #46  
Old 02-14-18, 12:58 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Brian - go away. They will easily handle mighty Nordonia. TJ comes from a program that takes the postseason one game at a time and never looks ahead. I'm SURE he will adapt the same approach at Euclid.

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  #47  
Old 02-14-18, 01:14 PM
StowInTheKnow StowInTheKnow is offline
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Thing about Euclid is they are head and shoulders better coached than other top teams here. GH, SH, CCC, etc. LOL at any mention of Nordonia. Saw them play Stow twice and never in the game.
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  #48  
Old 02-14-18, 03:46 PM
James x2 James x2 is offline
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Its starting to look like VASJ -SOUTH over at Euclid with the way TJ is coaching them.Impressed with the coaching and team chemistry.Hope this is the start of something good for the Panthers.Can we get Gaffney back in the neighborhood for his senior season?
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  #49  
Old 02-14-18, 03:57 PM
brusharc1986 brusharc1986 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Brian - go away. They will easily handle mighty Nordonia. TJ comes from a program that takes the postseason one game at a time and never looks ahead. I'm SURE he will adapt the same approach at Euclid.

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Couldnít agree more. His time with Mannarino at Beachwood really gave him a chance to blossom.
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  #50  
Old 02-14-18, 04:46 PM
Worm02 Worm02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited Potential View Post
No doubt the overall process is still very flawed. Looks like many coaches here looked simply at Euclid's record and seeded them low and possibly didn't do homework on Harding.
Never got a response to your comment in the bold. Are you saying that Euclid should be seeded higher than Harding? I can't say anything bad about the Panthers, but did you practice what you preached and "do homework on Harding?" I doubt it...

Harding started the season 6-5, which included losses to Cleveland St. Ignatius, Kennedy Catholic (PA powerhouse), Poland, etc. Then again, you might be thinking, "Harding also lost to Shaw & Youngstown East." Harding started the season playing a very inexperienced group (2 lettermen from last year) because they were forced to be without their best player for the 1st half of the season. Senior Delmar Moore is originally from Warren (I remember when his mother had him) and played JV for Harding two years ago, but last year, he lived in Greer, South Carolina. While he was down there, he played for SC Supreme, one of the premiere AAU squads in the country that also featured recent Duke commit Zion Williamson, and got much better.

When Moore moved back for his senior season, the OHSAA made him sit out 11 games, but since he has been back, Harding is 7-1, which includes wins over Canton McKinley (last night), Massillon, a road win at Maple Heights (Harding closed the game with a 20-2 run), a 35-point victory over Youngstown East (who previously beat Harding just a month prior), etc. In that time span, they've given up 42.9 points per game.

If Moore would've played the whole year, I seriously doubt that Harding would have 6 losses, but I guess that we'll never know. What I do know is that in their first 11 games, Harding's then-inexperienced team had to grow up fast. Now that they have and their 6'6" Division 1 recruit is back in te mix, don't expect them to lay down for anybody in Solon.

That's probably the "homework" that the coaches within the district did.
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  #51  
Old 02-14-18, 05:15 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Originally Posted by brusharc1986 View Post
Couldnít agree more. His time with Mannarino at Beachwood really gave him a chance to blossom.

Remind me what Beachwood has ever won. There was a two year window where they were pretty good - who beat them. Help me out I'm having a hard time remembering.

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  #52  
Old 02-14-18, 05:52 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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I think Unlimited Potential was making two different statements:
(1) Euclid was seeded lower than they should have been based on record
(2) Teams ALSO failed to do their "homework" on WGH and possibly slotted them lower than they should have been

As far as the district tournament issues:
(1) the district board went to home sites for sectional games for two reasons - (a) to possibly boost gates for individual games (b) to make it easier to find hosting facilities for district tournaments with only two/three nights tied up versus more than that
(2) the district board probably went to the default bracket in order to avoid those super blowout games - the top seed goes first round game instead of bye, since nobody wants to then jump into the top seed for the first game and then nobody wants to have a bye then play that top seed ... you'd get two mass blowouts
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  #53  
Old 02-14-18, 07:09 PM
Worm02 Worm02 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucksman View Post
I think Unlimited Potential was making two different statements:
(1) Euclid was seeded lower than they should have been based on record
(2) Teams ALSO failed to do their "homework" on WGH and possibly slotted them lower than they should have been
He definitely wasn't making the 2nd statement...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited Potential View Post
1. Garfield Hts (Head to head wins over shaker and CCC, 2 out of state losses to national powers)
2. CCC
3. Shaker
4. Twinsburg
5. Euclid (one of the toughest schedules in the state) (Losses Solon 2, Shaker 2, Garfield, VASJ, Brunswick) playing well.
6. Warren Harding
7. Maple
8. Kenston
9. Nordonia
10. University
11. Hudson
12. Adams
13. Bedford
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unlimited Potential View Post
I was going to say the same thing. The top 3 teams all don't really want to see Euclid in the district semifinals. Not likely worried about many of the other teams, although Harding seems to be playing well. (I don't know anything about them.)
Unlimited Potential thinks that the district coaches "possibly didn't do homework on Harding," yet he himself "don't know anything about them" and that Euclid is "not likely worried about many of the other teams" outside of his top 3. If anything, the coaches did far more "homework on Harding" than he did.
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  #54  
Old 02-14-18, 08:19 PM
Unlimited Potential Unlimited Potential is offline
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Originally Posted by Worm02 View Post
Never got a response to your comment in the bold. Are you saying that Euclid should be seeded higher than Harding? I can't say anything bad about the Panthers, but did you practice what you preached and "do homework on Harding?" I doubt it...

Harding started the season 6-5, which included losses to Cleveland St. Ignatius, Kennedy Catholic (PA powerhouse), Poland, etc. Then again, you might be thinking, "Harding also lost to Shaw & Youngstown East." Harding started the season playing a very inexperienced group (2 lettermen from last year) because they were forced to be without their best player for the 1st half of the season. Senior Delmar Moore is originally from Warren (I remember when his mother had him) and played JV for Harding two years ago, but last year, he lived in Greer, South Carolina. While he was down there, he played for SC Supreme, one of the premiere AAU squads in the country that also featured recent Duke commit Zion Williamson, and got much better.

When Moore moved back for his senior season, the OHSAA made him sit out 11 games, but since he has been back, Harding is 7-1, which includes wins over Canton McKinley (last night), Massillon, a road win at Maple Heights (Harding closed the game with a 20-2 run), a 35-point victory over Youngstown East (who previously beat Harding just a month prior), etc. In that time span, they've given up 42.9 points per game.

If Moore would've played the whole year, I seriously doubt that Harding would have 6 losses, but I guess that we'll never know. What I do know is that in their first 11 games, Harding's then-inexperienced team had to grow up fast. Now that they have and their 6'6" Division 1 recruit is back in te mix, don't expect them to lay down for anybody in Solon.

That's probably the "homework" that the coaches within the district did.

Quite the opposite. Meaning the coaches may not be aware of what you stated above and Harding potentially should be a 4 seed.

Lumping them and Euclid together in being potentially underrated by simply looking at record and voting. Coaching takes so much time and energy. Some of the coaches probably don't have time to even think about teams not on their schedule.

I will tell you that one coach seeded in the top 4 is very aware of how dangerous Harding is...
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  #55  
Old 02-14-18, 08:22 PM
Unlimited Potential Unlimited Potential is offline
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Originally Posted by Worm02 View Post
He definitely wasn't making the 2nd statement...





Unlimited Potential thinks that the district coaches "possibly didn't do homework on Harding," yet he himself "don't know anything about them" and that Euclid is "not likely worried about many of the other teams" outside of his top 3. If anything, the coaches did far more "homework on Harding" than he did.

And relax there guy... i'm just posting stuff on here for fun. I didn't know much about Harding, when I posted my "for fun" seedings. I hope to god the coaches did more homework than me... I'm not a sportswriter - We now know more, thanks to you. Best of luck to Harding.
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  #56  
Old 02-14-18, 09:08 PM
Worm02 Worm02 is offline
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Originally Posted by Unlimited Potential View Post
I will tell you that one coach seeded in the top 4 is very aware of how dangerous Harding is...
Since 2005, Harding has played in 10 district championship games (4-6), including each of the last 3 years. In that time span, they played against Raymar Morgan & Ricky Jackson (Canton McKinley), Kosta Koufos & C.J. McCollum (Canton Glenoak), Travis Kelce (Cleveland Heights), Esa Ahmad (Shaker Heights), Micah Potter (Mentor), etc. in the districts alone, not to mention the competition afterward. Despite the slow start to this season, the goals never changed. Win or lose, all of Northeastern Ohio knows what time is when the Raiders hit the court.

Like yourself, I am very interested to see how Euclid comes out swinging in the tournament though. Ohio's version of "March Madness" is always very interesting. Great time of the year!
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  #57  
Old 02-14-18, 09:11 PM
brusharc1986 brusharc1986 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Remind me what Beachwood has ever won. There was a two year window where they were pretty good - who beat them. Help me out I'm having a hard time remembering.

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Geez, Iím sorry. I thought you were referring to Coavh TJís time at Beachwood. I didnít realize you were talking about the time Coach TJ had to step in for Coach Babe when he flipped out on his superiors and was put on a leave of absence. Yeah, I guess you are right that experience probably helped him too.
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  #58  
Old 02-14-18, 09:57 PM
James x2 James x2 is offline
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I give TJ much credit.A man forging his own path at a school hungry for success.
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  #59  
Old 02-15-18, 08:24 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Leave it to BRUSHARC to take a complement and spin it into a jab at Babe Kwasniak. That just shows his inability to let it go. Just cannot resist the chance to make an a@@ of himself. TJ was at Joe's much more than the season you always like to refer to and does deserve credit in helping Joe's win a few of their champioonships and runner ups.

I will give credit where credit is due. He has done a great job at Euclid in year one and I only see them getting better in the years to come. The question was not IF TJ could coach it was would a losing program buy in. He needed to change the culture of losing and mediocrity and get kids to buy in 100% - even if there was not immediate results. He has done that. Now the kids are seeing the success they can have if they stay the course. They are talented and now they are playing with confidence - that makes them dangerous.

It's enjoyable being able to go to Euclid once again and watch good basketball. That has not happened since Sutell and O'Toole were there. The Panthers seem to be in every game. If I was Garfield Heights I would be pretty nervous because this team now knows they can play with the Bulldogs - and beat them.

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  #60  
Old 02-15-18, 01:30 PM
James x2 James x2 is offline
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Right on

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Leave it to BRUSHARC to take a complement and spin it into a jab at Babe Kwasniak. That just shows his inability to let it go. Just cannot resist the chance to make an a@@ of himself. TJ was at Joe's much more than the season you always like to refer to and does deserve credit in helping Joe's win a few of their champioonships and runner ups.

I will give credit where credit is due. He has done a great job at Euclid in year one and I only see them getting better in the years to come. The question was not IF TJ could coach it was would a losing program buy in. He needed to change the culture of losing and mediocrity and get kids to buy in 100% - even if there was not immediate results. He has done that. Now the kids are seeing the success they can have if they stay the course. They are talented and now they are playing with confidence - that makes them dangerous.

It's enjoyable being able to go to Euclid once again and watch good basketball. That has not happened since Sutell and O'Toole were there. The Panthers seem to be in every game. If I was Garfield Heights I would be pretty nervous because this team now knows they can play with the Bulldogs - and beat them.

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Pretty much sums it up.Love having my two schools with basketball success.
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