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  #61  
Old 02-13-18, 12:13 PM
mailman112 mailman112 is offline
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Coach i respect you responding to all the chatter. Two things. I have NEVER been a fan of this event. 95% of the schools in ALL 3 divisions have little to no chance. The timing is terrible. Getting these kids home at 1am then back in school at 7am is terrible. The expense to the schools to drive down Saturday night, hotels, food etc only to wrestle 1 dual and go home makes NO sense. The only thing I disagree with is your comments about 'You also need to realize that the level of wrestling might be too much for some of the younger/less experienced kids. Taking a first year kid to the slaughter may kill any chances of him returning for his sophomore campaign." How do they get any better? How will they win at sectionals or district? No matter the sport it seems to me more and more schools lower the playing field so they can win. Then when the playoffs come around they get killed. Makes no sense to me. Look at Cornerstone in basketball. Look who they play to get ready to win! Just my two cents. Best of luck to you and all wrestlers in the coming weeks.
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  #62  
Old 02-13-18, 12:27 PM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
I apologize to any coaches or teams that were offended that I bumped a kid up creating a forfeit to try and win a dual. I apologize to any coaches or teams that were offended that we didnít have a full team. But I canít apologize for holding my kids out that were not ready or healthy enough to compete.
Coach Root
Coach, I doubt that any coaches or teams were offended, just some Yappi poster(s). You're doing a great job. Success breeds success. Best wishes for continued success.

For the record
LaSalle ranked 12th in the country
LaSalle ranked 2nd in Ohio D1 (Borofan)
LaSalle top 4 in Ohio State Duals
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  #63  
Old 02-13-18, 12:49 PM
SCORE2WIN SCORE2WIN is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailman112 View Post
Coach i respect you responding to all the chatter. Two things. I have NEVER been a fan of this event. 95% of the schools in ALL 3 divisions have little to no chance. The timing is terrible. Getting these kids home at 1am then back in school at 7am is terrible. The expense to the schools to drive down Saturday night, hotels, food etc only to wrestle 1 dual and go home makes NO sense. The only thing I disagree with is your comments about 'You also need to realize that the level of wrestling might be too much for some of the younger/less experienced kids. Taking a first year kid to the slaughter may kill any chances of him returning for his sophomore campaign." How do they get any better? How will they win at sectionals or district? No matter the sport it seems to me more and more schools lower the playing field so they can win. Then when the playoffs come around they get killed. Makes no sense to me. Look at Cornerstone in basketball. Look who they play to get ready to win! Just my two cents. Best of luck to you and all wrestlers in the coming weeks.
I don't see where putting a first year kid in the lineup to go up against Graham is good for anybody, especially the first year kid. More times than not they are going to get nothing out of a 1st period tech or 20 sec pin. You put them in a winless situation like that and they might just say piss on this. I think that's what he is referring to.

Last edited by SCORE2WIN; 02-13-18 at 01:26 PM.
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  #64  
Old 02-13-18, 12:54 PM
bdhof bdhof is offline
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Originally Posted by SCORE2WIN View Post
I don't see where putting a first year kid in the lineup to go up against Graham is good for anybody, especially the first year kid. More times than not they are going to get nothing out of a 1st period tech or 20 sec pin. You put them in a winless situation like that and they might just say piss on this. I think that's what he is referring to I think.
Agree.
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  #65  
Old 02-13-18, 01:26 PM
pinya pinya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCORE2WIN View Post
I don't see where putting a first year kid in the lineup to go up against Graham is good for anybody, especially the first year kid. More times than not they are going to get nothing out of a 1st period tech or 20 sec pin. You put them in a winless situation like that and they might just say piss on this. I think that's what he is referring to I think.
So, you'd be better off forfeiting the weight class...Oh, wait, that's not acceptable either
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  #66  
Old 02-13-18, 03:33 PM
eliwes eliwes is offline
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Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
Iíll try and respond the best I can... we came to win. As did several others, Graham included. We brought the best team we could considering the circumstances (i.e. injuries and illness). I donít think we were the only team there without a projected starter in the lineup. We wrestled what we had against Graham. Our dual against Elyria was different as we had to bump a guy up to get the matchup we want. It did create a forfeit that could have been avoided. The final score made that bump seem unnecessary but heavyweight could have decided the match. It increased our chances of winning the dual. By winning it gave everyone on the team a chance to advance to the semis and get another match. As for the numbers on the team, thatís on me. Our feeder program needs to grow and I need to hit the hallways at the school. We fill 13 out of 14 weights if we are healthy but injuries and the flu hurt us. You also need to realize that the level of wrestling might be too much for some of the younger/less experienced kids. Taking a first year kid to the slaughter may kill any chances of him returning for his sophomore campaign. So, sometimes you have to look at the big picture and same that not taking the sub is better for the kid, just like not wrestling a kid with the flu is better for the kid.

I guess my question back to you: Is it bad for some teams to bring 28 kids to an event knowing many wont ever wrestle? They could help the team in certain situations or fill in if there was an injury. Their family and friends would still be there even though they arenít likely to wrestle... is that different from a forfeit?

Iím not sure what I did to pick this fight but we did as well as we could have under the circumstances. I love the event. I hate the timing. Iím a realist... could we have done better with our full lineup? Sure. Would it have changed where we ended up? Nope. I apologize to any coaches or teams that were offended that I bumped a kid up creating a forfeit to try and win a dual. I apologize to any coaches or teams that were offended that we didnít have a full team. But I canít apologize for holding my kids out that were not ready or healthy enough to compete.


Coach Root
not a fight just a different of opinions. I'm from the old school, seen 50 state tournaments and watched the Jordan's win 22 state titles. I come from the Milkovich, Gibbons, and Caruso era where the philosophy was if you can walk your going to wrestle. I watched you to try and win a state title and you came up a little short, but I bet you never forfeited a match in high school. good luck in the tournament I'll be watching your team, now go walk the halls and get some of those studs that play football so they can see what a real sport is.
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  #67  
Old 02-13-18, 07:58 PM
ShyGuy ShyGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eliwes View Post
I watched you to try and win a state title and you came up a little short
Just curious. How many titles did you win?
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  #68  
Old 02-13-18, 09:01 PM
Crab Ride Crab Ride is offline
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Originally Posted by ShyGuy View Post
Just curious. How many titles did you win?
Iím guessing as many as you did.
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  #69  
Old 02-13-18, 09:08 PM
ShyGuy ShyGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by Crab Ride View Post
Iím guessing as many as you did.
Thatís my guess as well, but Iím not taking a jab at someone for not winning one.
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  #70  
Old 02-13-18, 09:35 PM
Crab Ride Crab Ride is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShyGuy View Post
Thatís my guess as well, but Iím not taking a jab at someone for not winning one.
I didnít see it as a jab. Ryan took a jab at the OSU coaches saying they were out coached and out game planned in a prior thread and I didnít you asking him how many NCAA titles he led a team to.
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  #71  
Old 02-13-18, 09:52 PM
ShyGuy ShyGuy is offline
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The difference here is relevance.

There is no relevance to a head coach winning a title to this thread.

The other thread was an observation made about that Dual, but I’m guessing you’ve never made an negative comment about the Bengals, Browns, Reds, Indians, Bucks, Bearcats, Bobcats, Cavaliers or whatever D1 college program or Professional team you follow about a performance that could be considered by most subpar compared to what they’re cabable of.

Completely different things here.
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  #72  
Old 02-13-18, 10:00 PM
Crab Ride Crab Ride is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShyGuy View Post
The difference here is relevance.

There is no relevance to a head coach winning a title to this thread.

The other thread was an observation made about that Dual, but Iím guessing youíve never made an negative comment about the Bengals, Browns, Reds, Indians, Bucks, Bearcats, Bobcats, Cavaliers or whatever D1 college program or Professional team you follow about a performance that could be considered by most subpar compared to what theyíre cabable of.

Completely different things here.
We will have to agree to disagree. The poster was commenting on Ryanís competitiveness and how he endeavored to win a state title vs him forfeiting a match. I doubt someone who wrestled at that level wouldíve have been ok sitting. On another note, your son was one of my favorite wrestlers to watch despite (to my recollection) not winning a title. He never backed down from anyone and had energy off the charts. Loved his ďgo for itĒ style. Well done Dad.
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  #73  
Old 02-13-18, 10:14 PM
ProV1 ProV1 is offline
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This thread is a glowing example of why state duals are a good idea poorly executed. I donít blame coaches for skipping it. Nor do I blame those that participate but make decisions in the best interest of their team. Itís a shame as the event has so much potential.
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  #74  
Old 02-13-18, 10:15 PM
ShyGuy ShyGuy is offline
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Originally Posted by Crab Ride View Post
We will have to agree to disagree. The poster was commenting on Ryanís competitiveness and how he endeavored to win a state title vs him forfeiting a match. I doubt someone who wrestled at that level wouldíve have been ok sitting. On another note, your son was one of my favorite wrestlers to watch despite (to my recollection) not winning a title. He never backed down from anyone and had energy off the charts. Loved his ďgo for itĒ style. Well done Dad.

Ha, I see what you did there. Style points for crab.

Maybe he will some day return to Ohio and coach a team to the Final 4 with multiple forfeits.

Though very proud of his Highschool career, that is belittled to the opportunity in front of him now. That is what I take the most pride in.
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  #75  
Old 02-13-18, 10:20 PM
Crab Ride Crab Ride is offline
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Originally Posted by ShyGuy View Post
Ha, I see what you did there. Style points for crab.

Maybe he will some day return to Ohio and coach a team to the Final 4 with multiple forfeits.

Though very proud of his Highschool career, that is belittled to the opportunity in front of him now. That is what I take the most pride in.
Seriously, I wasnít jabbing. Winning a title shouldnít define an athlete. And yes, his service to our country far outweighs his athletic endeavors.
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  #76  
Old 02-14-18, 08:49 AM
eliwes eliwes is offline
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Originally Posted by ProV1 View Post
This thread is a glowing example of why state duals are a good idea poorly executed. I donít blame coaches for skipping it. Nor do I blame those that participate but make decisions in the best interest of their team. Itís a shame as the event has so much potential.
agree. now come up an executed plan that makes common sense. Driving to Columbus for one match? Having the duals on a school night? Getting home before midnight? announce who's wrestling do to line up changes? Limit the number of forfeits for a team to qualify? is there too much time between the semis and finals? why can't the div. be wrestled at separate locations like they used to be.
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  #77  
Old 02-14-18, 09:38 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Originally Posted by eliwes View Post
agree. now come up an executed plan that makes common sense. Driving to Columbus for one match? Having the duals on a school night? Getting home before midnight? announce who's wrestling do to line up changes? Limit the number of forfeits for a team to qualify? is there too much time between the semis and finals? why can't the div. be wrestled at separate locations like they used to be.
They are getting rid of the school night duals next year. There is one of the problems solved.

As for the rest, unless agreed upon, line-up changes will happen. I'd like to see teams stick to their guns like they typically do in college, but with high school kids and so many weight classes, it's hard to do that.

I agree with limiting the FF's. Should be 3-4 max. Won't happen. It's "free" matches and most coaches want the extra mat time. The state wants more teams to buy in, so they'll allow everyone in that has a "chance on paper" numbers wise. This would have to come from the coaches association and then some to get that change.

I'd like to see each team get two matches, but there isn't enough room in St. John's. OSU won't give the Schott up unless OHSAA can bring in 8-10k. Just not happening. As Bucksman has said time and time again, OHSAA wants their tournaments as uniform as possible. Other sports do 1 and done.
Maybe a move to the Covelli center? Smaller seating than Schott, but similar floor space? That would really upset the teams down south, but if it allows you to get an extra match or two in?!?!

Why do you want to see different divisions at different locations? I've gone to every dual finals and love watching all the matches going on. I get ADD at times and lose focus on certain matches, but it's so nice to see all of Ohio's best teams in all divisions in one spot.
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  #78  
Old 02-14-18, 10:50 AM
nati513 nati513 is offline
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Originally Posted by eyes r burning View Post
Thanks for your honesty.

Don't take this the wrong way, but this is exactly what is wrong with this event. I'm not saying you personally, but I see so many people talk about how competitive duals are great for wrestling. (I agree) Yet, coaches aren't putting much stock into this event for one reason or another. In one of my area papers last week, a head coach for a team that participated in Columbus said that this event is less of a priority than their 8 team conference meet. A meet that they've won or finished 2nd in for the last 40 years or so.

I've got no problem with teams not entering if it doesn't fit into what you want to accomplish. Once you enter, stick it out. (Thank you for not dropping out!) It's sad to hear that you actually thought about bailing after winning the region. I'm sorry, even if the flu or injury bug hits, stick it out. Put in kids into empty spots so long as there isn't a serious safety concern.
That part bothers me, but oh well, I'm just a fan.


Couple of things here.....1) Looks like we're suffering from diminishing returns. When a team or two dominates for 10- 20 plus years an event such as State duels could lose its value. Not to knock on Eds or Graham but only a select few teams every half decade or so can legitimately compete with those programs.

2) Four of the eight teams are one and done which is ridiculous. I think the State Duals needs a consolation bracket to get at least two matches in for the weekend and guarantee to see at least two of the top eight teams taht are there....If your an 8 or 7 seed having to face Graham and Eds how does it benefit your program spending money and time to goto Columbus to wrestle one match and get beat 55-10?
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  #79  
Old 02-14-18, 11:29 AM
Coach Root Coach Root is offline
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The Coaches association ran it years ago at Wadsworth. They ran a full bracket with everyone wrestling to placement and getting multiple matches. It was run great. The only notable issue was space... They had plenty, but they only hosted Div.1. I think if you're going to wrestle it out you have to do one of two things... divide up the divisions into separate locations, or make it less fan friendly holding it at a convention center type place. I wanted to stay and watch the finals... but waiting two hours between rounds made it much less desirable.

The forfeits are what they are... I coach a team that doesn't field a full lineup. The sport has shrinking numbers... pushing out schools that can't fill a full lineup will leave you with a very small event and the smaller it gets the less money the OHSAA makes... eventually they scrap it due to cost. Early January I had 1 forfeit... at State Duals, I had 3-4. At Sectionals I'll likely have 1-2. I think the better way to handle it is to offer a greater incentive to fill each weight class. Forfeits count as 8 points opposed to 6.

As for the comments about submitting a roster prior to the event and locking in weight classes... I think you're taking a lot of strategy out of the event. Even the coin flip has major implications on the dual. Some coaches like to see certain matchups, others prefer to only see a guy one time... when it counts. I don't think you can force everyone into this small box or you'll see certain coaches forfeiting matches where they may even have a kid if they feel it's in their wrestlers best interest.
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  #80  
Old 02-14-18, 12:17 PM
mailman112 mailman112 is offline
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Originally Posted by Coach Root View Post
The Coaches association ran it years ago at Wadsworth. They ran a full bracket with everyone wrestling to placement and getting multiple matches. It was run great. The only notable issue was space... They had plenty, but they only hosted Div.1. I think if you're going to wrestle it out you have to do one of two things... divide up the divisions into separate locations, or make it less fan friendly holding it at a convention center type place. I wanted to stay and watch the finals... but waiting two hours between rounds made it much less desirable.

The forfeits are what they are... I coach a team that doesn't field a full lineup. The sport has shrinking numbers... pushing out schools that can't fill a full lineup will leave you with a very small event and the smaller it gets the less money the OHSAA makes... eventually they scrap it due to cost. Early January I had 1 forfeit... at State Duals, I had 3-4. At Sectionals I'll likely have 1-2. I think the better way to handle it is to offer a greater incentive to fill each weight class. Forfeits count as 8 points opposed to 6.

As for the comments about submitting a roster prior to the event and locking in weight classes... I think you're taking a lot of strategy out of the event. Even the coin flip has major implications on the dual. Some coaches like to see certain matchups, others prefer to only see a guy one time... when it counts. I don't think you can force everyone into this small box or you'll see certain coaches forfeiting matches where they may even have a kid if they feel it's in their wrestlers best interest.
All well said and I agree. If we go back to the way the "duals" were run at Wadsworth I'm all in favor. Returning state points 8 teams each division. 1 day a champ is crowned. I would rotate sites between 2-4 schools that want to host it.
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