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  #1  
Old 03-09-14, 09:49 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Competitive Balance 4.0 (Part 2)

Unfortunately, that first thread was way off-topic and not sure it could ever be brought back to discuss this serious proposal put forward by the OHSAA. So here's the part 2 to that thread and let's keep it more on-topic and informative.
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  #2  
Old 03-09-14, 09:57 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Here's a couple recent articles:

Quote:
As is the case currently, the 'athletic count' number will begin with the school's EMIS count, which is supplied to the OHSAA by the Ohio Department of Education.

For public schools in a community with just one public school, like most of the Ohio Valley, each sport will submit its roster, including participants in grades 9-12 and not just varsity. The next step is determining where the players on the roster reside. If they're all residents of the that specific school district, there will be no addition.

If they live outside of the school district, have attended the school since seventh grade, add one to the count. If they've come to the school district since their seventh grade year, it becomes sport specific.

The sport specific number that is utilized as the multiplier is determined by the sport, based on the number of divisions that compete. For instance, football will be a two because there are seven divisions. The four-division sports - basketball, baseball, softball and volleyball - will use a five and soccer - a three-division sport - will use six.
Read more:
http://www.timesleaderonline.com/pag...presented.html

Quote:
1. The school's enrollment is the base number. These are numbers that the schools submit every two years to the OHSAA, which is the total number of students in ninth, 10th and 11th grades.

2. After the rosters are determined, participants on those rosters that live in the school district do not get any alteration or assigned a multiplier.

3. The participants on the roster that do not live in the district, but have been enrolled in the school system since at least seventh grade, are given a multiplier number of one.

4. Participants on the roster that do not live in the district and or the athlete started attending the school from eighth grade on, they are given a different multiplier that varies by sport. For soccer, the multiplier is six. For football, the number is two. For volleyball, basketball, softball and baseball, the number is five.
Read more:
http://tribune-chronicle.com/page/co...r-OHSAA--.html

Quote:
For example, a school with an actual enrollment of 300 has a basketball roster of 30 players (grades 9-12). Twenty players are from the district and will not count extra, six were from outside the district but enrolled during junior high, counting each as a additional student to the base number, and four enrolled in high school with each player counting as five, making the OHSAA's enrollment figure of 326.

...

Last year, schools were concerned about the timing of when the divisional numbers would be released. If the current proposal passes, the roster numbers from the previous season would be used to calculate the divisional numbers for the two-year period.
Read more:
http://www.dailystandard.com/archive...lance-proposal
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Old 03-09-14, 10:59 PM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Thank you for doing a reboot of this.
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  #4  
Old 03-09-14, 11:24 PM
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Baron Von Steuben Baron Von Steuben is offline
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It will be easy for SCC to calculate students if the 'feeder grade school/junior high' model is approved. Only one grade school (Bishop Mussio) and the junior high is attached to Catholic Central.

Shouldn't be a big issue for Bellaire St. John. Not many Catholic grade schools left in Belmont County.

Worst case would be a one division jump IMO for SCC. St. John's is so small (3rd smallest enrollment in the OVAC) they shouldn't be affected. Same goes for East Richland Christian. (St. Clairsville). They have the smallest enrollment in the OVAC. Don't know if they have a feeder school.

OVAC enrollment: (Calculated by all girls/boys grades 9-11)

http://www.ovac.org/School/Enrollment
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Old 03-10-14, 08:03 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Two questions...

How does this apply to private schools? The "district" is the public school district that the private school resides in????

Second question...in a multiple school public district (e.g., Cleveland), is the "district" a single high school or the whole district?

Two critical thoughts...first, there seems to be no recognition that public school kids on the poorer end of the spectrum move around an awful lot. Are you going to be bumping up Cleveland city schools because they have students that used to attend East Tech but now go to John Adams? And, this isn't limited by the city's boundaries...there's plenty of rental housing in places like Garfield Hts., Maple Hts., Euclid, Bedford, etc. Euclid will get bumped up because a family flees Cleveland in the 8th grade and moves into an apartment in Euclid?

Second thought...once again, this whole idea of a school district being applied to private schools makes no sense "on the ground". What is University School's "district"? Hathaway Brown?

They are moving in my direction by limiting the analysis to a team by team basis and not the whole athletic program, but I still think it would be easy to identify (with a GPS program) who a private school's "community" is and do the same thing to a given sports team to see if it matches up with the school.
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Old 03-10-14, 08:16 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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OK...so I read one of the articles...a private school gets to choose its district based on where its "feeder" school is located (singular)...presuming, of course, that a private high school tends to have only one feeder school. Once again, how does this concept fairly apply to a school like HB or US or Benedictine...schools that draw students from a variety of districts...schools that don't really have a feeder school? I'm leaving schools like Ignatius and Ed's out of this (where the problem would really be dramatic) because they are already in D-I.
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Old 03-10-14, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Two questions...

How does this apply to private schools? The "district" is the public school district that the private school resides in????

Second question...in a multiple school public district (e.g., Cleveland), is the "district" a single high school or the whole district?

Two critical thoughts...first, there seems to be no recognition that public school kids on the poorer end of the spectrum move around an awful lot. Are you going to be bumping up Cleveland city schools because they have students that used to attend East Tech but now go to John Adams? And, this isn't limited by the city's boundaries...there's plenty of rental housing in places like Garfield Hts., Maple Hts., Euclid, Bedford, etc. Euclid will get bumped up because a family flees Cleveland in the 8th grade and moves into an apartment in Euclid?

Second thought...once again, this whole idea of a school district being applied to private schools makes no sense "on the ground". What is University School's "district"? Hathaway Brown?

They are moving in my direction by limiting the analysis to a team by team basis and not the whole athletic program, but I still think it would be easy to identify (with a GPS program) who a private school's "community" is and do the same thing to a given sports team to see if it matches up with the school.
I have always said for the Wayne County faction this is more a urban/rural issue more then a private/public. By the way Smithville's strong girls hoops program just played Beachwood in an exciting game and won on a buzzer beater; if the above proposal was in place Beachwood would have probably been bumped up to Div II and this game would have never taken place. Next up for the Smithies is Columbus Africentric which again would be Div II if the above multiplier is in place. This really looks like a proposal to placate Wayne County.
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Old 03-10-14, 08:39 AM
SummPort SummPort is offline
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I am a little confused by the multiplier for students who don't reside in districts. The whole part about 7th grade, etc has me confused.

IF a student is an open enrolee, but is in the district since say kindergarten, do they still count as an extra one? or is this extra one JUST for kids that come after 7th grade? Between the original press release, and looking at different articles, I am no so sure.

Is it easiest to say ALL kids outside district before high school count as additional one?

I understand the sport specific multiplier.

Thanks for any help
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  #9  
Old 03-10-14, 08:47 AM
serpico serpico is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Once again, how does this concept fairly apply to a school like HB or US or Benedictine...schools that draw students from a variety of districts...schools that don't really have a feeder school?
It seems to me that schools such as these are the ones that give the Wayne County contingent the largest case of the willies. I'm not sure that 'fairly apply' is something they are too worried about.
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Old 03-10-14, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serpico View Post
It seems to me that schools such as these are the ones that give the Wayne County contingent the largest case of the willies. I'm not sure that 'fairly apply' is something they are too worried about.
I understand that. There are many public school people who don't understand how private schools work, where their students come from, how shaky their financial circumstances, etc. They simply see it as a vehicle to collect good athletes.
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Old 03-10-14, 09:07 AM
serpico serpico is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SummPort View Post
I am a little confused by the multiplier for students who don't reside in districts. The whole part about 7th grade, etc has me confused.
From a different district but enrolled since at least the 7th grade: add one (not sure why the linked article uses the word 'multiplier' - it's really just an add-on)

From a different district but enrolled after 7th grade: sport-specific multiplier
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Old 03-10-14, 09:09 AM
SummPort SummPort is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serpico View Post
From a different district but enrolled since at least the 7th grade: add one (not sure why the linked article uses the word 'multiplier' - it's really just an add-on)

From a different district but enrolled after 7th grade: sport-specific multiplier
That is what I thought.

So, ALL will count in some way. Just after 7th, dings schools a little more. Almost wished it would say "enrolled BY the 7th grade". The words "at least" and "after" almost sound like the same thing

Thanks
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Old 03-10-14, 11:09 AM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
first, there seems to be no recognition that public school kids on the poorer end of the spectrum move around an awful lot. Are you going to be bumping up Cleveland city schools because they have students that used to attend East Tech but now go to John Adams? And, this isn't limited by the city's boundaries...there's plenty of rental housing in places like Garfield Hts., Maple Hts., Euclid, Bedford, etc. Euclid will get bumped up because a family flees Cleveland in the 8th grade and moves into an apartment in Euclid?
Looks like the inner-city public schools are going to get the short stick again. Now we will be taking the inflated forecast numbers for inner-city schools and then adding a multiplier to the transient student/athletes. We will probably see a few of these inner-city schools being bumped up a division even though they have never been competitive and then see a couple of the wealthier public and private schools moving down.

I also don't like that the OHSAA plans to use these team specific numbers to forecast for two years.
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Old 03-10-14, 12:30 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yappi View Post
Unfortunately, that first thread was way off-topic and not sure it could ever be brought back to discuss this serious proposal put forward by the OHSAA.
It's just going to end up in the same place... the public folks, like that clown from Dover, will jump up on the cross while the private folks, like myself, stroke their foreheads telling them it will be okay.
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Old 03-10-14, 12:32 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
OK...so I read one of the articles...a private school gets to choose its district based on where its "feeder" school is located (singular)...presuming, of course, that a private high school tends to have only one feeder school. Once again, how does this concept fairly apply to a school like HB or US or Benedictine...schools that draw students from a variety of districts...schools that don't really have a feeder school? I'm leaving schools like Ignatius and Ed's out of this (where the problem would really be dramatic) because they are already in D-I.
The districting thing is a mess. It's the flaw in this whole thing. Just because a private feeder school is in one area doesn't mean it's kids come from that area. Mooney has feeder schools in multiple areas and those schools get kids from outside that area.

For example, let's say a kid from Columbiana goes to school at St. Charles in Boardman and then attends Mooney in Youngstown? How do you factor that in?

How do Ed's or Iggy factor in kids from say Medina County?
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Old 03-10-14, 03:20 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
How do Ed's or Iggy factor in kids from say Medina County?
Well, they don't because they're already in the top division. That's why all of these proposed fixes are just an academic experience for me and mine.

But, to your point...both schools get a fair number of kids from Medina County...athlete and non-athlete alike. Why? No Catholic high school in Medina County.
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Old 03-10-14, 03:35 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Well, they don't because they're already in the top division. That's why all of these proposed fixes are just an academic experience for me and mine.

But, to your point...both schools get a fair number of kids from Medina County...athlete and non-athlete alike. Why? No Catholic high school in Medina County.
I'm not complaining about it. I totally understand. I realize there is no catholic high school in the county, though I believe there are still some K-8 schools. I believe brunswick and medina each had one back in the day. I could be wrong. I'm from Medina, but I've been gone for 20 years, so I'm familiar with most things Medina but don't know everything.

I also realize these things will not have an effect on schools that are already D1 like Iggy and Ed's.

My point is, however this districting thing plays out, it won't make much of any sense or really factor in how broad of an area privates can get kids from. Some of these are getting kids from what, 20 maybe 30 maybe even 40 miles away?

Isn't that what folks are really upset about?

In youngstown at least, I don't think folks get mad about who Mooney and Ursuline get from the city. It's the kids from Poland, Boardman, Canfield and some other areas that folks go crazy over.

Then again, most of those kids went to Catholic feeder schools. So who f'n knows what their mad about.

if those kids went to a catholic feeder in boardman k-8, should they count against anything when they move on to Mooney or Ursuline? If so, that makes no sense to me.

why did i even comment on this thread?
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Old 03-10-14, 08:05 PM
Blue Rhino Blue Rhino is offline
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All of this time spent by OHSAA on this nonsense. Maybe they should be focusing on things that really are important? Like making sure we don't have ties in State Championship games!
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Old 03-10-14, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Rhino View Post
All of this time spent by OHSAA on this nonsense. Maybe they should be focusing on things that really are important? Like making sure we don't have ties in State Championship games!
Why is that any more important?
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Old 03-11-14, 05:10 AM
zeeman zeeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
Why is that any more important?
Eureka! Ties for everyone! Vince Lombardi is rolling in his grave. Unbelievable
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Old 03-11-14, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Rhino View Post
All of this time spent by OHSAA on this nonsense. Maybe they should be focusing on things that really are important? Like making sure we don't have ties in State Championship games!
more trophies for everyone!
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Old 03-11-14, 12:28 PM
Blue Rhino Blue Rhino is offline
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Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
Why is that any more important?
Because it is so obviously in need of a fix. Enact a shootout for hockey after so many O/T's and be done with it before one of these kids gets hurt.
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Old 03-17-14, 01:51 AM
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Coaches’ opinions vary with OHSAA competitive-balance proposal

http://www.ohio.com/sports/high-scho...posal-1.471961

If adopted, the measure would change the way schools are placed in football, basketball, volleyball, baseball, softball and soccer postseason tournaments beginning with the 2016-17 school year.
http://highschoolsports.cleveland.co...lyout_hssports
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Old 03-17-14, 07:23 AM
nc green wave nc green wave is offline
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I see more comments in this article pertaining to the size disparity of D1 schools and the lack of additional divisions in basketball than I see comments about where public and privates get their kids from.
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Old 03-17-14, 07:41 AM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeeman View Post
Eureka! Ties for everyone! Vince Lombardi is rolling in his grave. Unbelievable
Is everything you post an attempt to start a fight?
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Old 03-17-14, 07:43 AM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Rhino View Post
Because it is so obviously in need of a fix. Enact a shootout for hockey after so many O/T's and be done with it before one of these kids gets hurt.
I get that, but my point is how is making sure there isn't a tie any more or less important than the competitive balance issue? And going by what you just said here, it's not the tie that is the problem, the game going on for too long is the problem, causing safety issues for the kids. It just needs to end sooner, be it by a tie or by a shootout.
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Old 03-17-14, 07:55 AM
Yankeefan33 Yankeefan33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
I get that, but my point is how is making sure there isn't a tie any more or less important than the competitive balance issue? And going by what you just said here, it's not the tie that is the problem, the game going on for too long is the problem, causing safety issues for the kids. It just needs to end sooner, be it by a tie or by a shootout.
Taking it to shootout is a national issue- not really too much the OHSAA could do about that.

Back on the original topic- I'm not totally up-to-date on the Competitive Balance issue, but do people who have been following it think that it will pass? And if not, why not?
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Old 03-17-14, 08:20 AM
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The larger pubs are the public schools that gets hurt in any multiplier situation and they were always going to be the group that would be most affected by a deal that placates the Wayne County rabble rousers. These schools needs the hard split more then any other because the larger privates already in Div I have no where to go and as the one coach called out they now get the better mid sized privates like SVSM added in for good measure. A lot feel Ross gave them up to make Wayne County happy; probably true and I would look for some open Division in the near future to answer their beef. Whose ready for 8 state titles in football?
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Old 03-17-14, 08:24 AM
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Some good stuff for your reading pleasure:

http://www.vindy.com/news/2014/mar/16/march-sadness/
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Old 03-17-14, 08:55 AM
nc green wave nc green wave is offline
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I find it interesting that Matt Cash points out St. Ignatius as having over 1,400 boys when they actually have 1,086 per the OHSAA website. Also, St. Ignatius is one of only two private schools in the state of Ohio with a male enrollment of over 1,000. Cash makes no mention of the nine public schools that have a male enrollment over 1,000.

Oh, and St. Edward has a male enrollment of 699..............hardly the "double" that he claims to his 507.
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