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  #1  
Old 05-19-17, 03:21 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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"Walk Off Walk" Overrruled on Protested Game-Ending Appeal Force Play

Watching the video, it's tough to say if the runner touched 3rd.

Quote:
The controversy arose during the seventh inning of the second game of the Class 6A semifinal doubleheader in Leesburg Wednesday. Lee County won the first game 7-4, but Johns Creek appeared to even the series at one game apiece when the Gladiators received a bases-loaded walk with the score tied 3-3 in the bottom of the seventh inning of the second game.

Lee County coach Brandon Brock approached the umpires with the contention that the Johns Creek runner on second base had not completed the play by touching third base. After a lengthy discussion, the umpires ruled that Brock was correct and, therefore, the winning run was disallowed.

The game then proceeded into extra innings and Lee County won 5-3 to apparently sweep the series 2-0 and advance to next week’s state championship.
Read more:
http://www.closecallsports.com/2017/...orce-play.html
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  #2  
Old 05-19-17, 04:15 PM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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Wow! What a crazy situation, but it was the right thing to do.

I had this one years ago. Bottom of 6th, tying run on 3rd and 2 outs. Batter swings and misses on strike three, the ball gets away from the catcher and there is a play at the plate and the runner is safe. The batter during all the excitement never took off down the line for first. An alert coach noticed and had the catcher throw to first for the out. Run does not count because of the force out. The coach for the team at bat was livid, but rules are rules.
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  #3  
Old 05-20-17, 02:09 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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We always reminded the players to get to the next base when a walk off hit could possibly happen.
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  #4  
Old 05-20-17, 04:56 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
Wow! What a crazy situation, but it was the right thing to do.

I had this one years ago. Bottom of 6th, tying run on 3rd and 2 outs. Batter swings and misses on strike three, the ball gets away from the catcher and there is a play at the plate and the runner is safe. The batter during all the excitement never took off down the line for first. An alert coach noticed and had the catcher throw to first for the out. Run does not count because of the force out. The coach for the team at bat was livid, but rules are rules.
The run does not count here because the batter-runner was retired for the third out before he reached first base. This is not a force-out.
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  #5  
Old 05-20-17, 08:17 AM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
The run does not count here because the batter-runner was retired for the third out before he reached first base. This is not a force-out.
First base was not occupied so he could get to first base without making an out. Hence the throw to first is the play that got him out.
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  #6  
Old 05-20-17, 09:33 AM
MERKLE MERKLE is offline
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Odd situation, but not new. My namesake on here is Merkle. For some enjoyable baseball history, fans should look up Fred Merkle, and you'll find that this stuff has happened before.

On a side note, a couple blocks from Wrigley field is a bar called Merkle's. It's a bitter tribute.
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  #7  
Old 05-20-17, 10:31 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
First base was not occupied so he could get to first base without making an out. Hence the throw to first is the play that got him out.
This in no way meets the definition of a force play under any rule code. No prior runner is forcing the batter runner to advance. Most put-outs at first base are executed in the fashion that most true force-outs are executed, however they are two separate put-outs.

As an umpire, it is paramount that proper terminology be used when giving rulings. It helps educate those not well versed with the rules and keeps from myths about rules being developed.......

......it also helps the umpire gain a better understanding of the rules of the game that he is working.....
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  #8  
Old 05-20-17, 11:09 AM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
This in no way meets the definition of a force play under any rule code. No prior runner is forcing the batter runner to advance. Most put-outs at first base are executed in the fashion that most true force-outs are executed, however they are two separate put-outs.

As an umpire, it is paramount that proper terminology be used when giving rulings. It helps educate those not well versed with the rules and keeps from myths about rules being developed.......

......it also helps the umpire gain a better understanding of the rules of the game that he is working.....
The batter runner is not "Forced" to go to first, but that's where he has to go to prevent from being put out. The batter runner can be put out at first with out being tagged as well. The batter runner was not retied for the third out until the throw was completed. If the throw was not completed, the batter runner would of been safe and the run counts. Therefore the third out has not happened yet.

The call was the correct call and when things settled down, the coach totally understood the reasoning and why the call was made.
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  #9  
Old 05-20-17, 12:03 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Not disputing any of this......

Just reminding you that your characterization in a prior post that this was a "force-out" was incorrect by definition and rule.
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  #10  
Old 05-20-17, 12:24 PM
Bugsy8875 Bugsy8875 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Not disputing any of this......

Just reminding you that your characterization in a prior post that this was a "force-out" was incorrect by definition and rule.
With all due respect, what would be the best way to communicate this without using the word "force" in an explanation to the coach about the throw going to first?

I wonder if we are splitting hairs on a definition. The way almost all plays happen at 1B have the look of a force out. The batter runner is not forced to go there, but since he doesn't have another option, that play is looked upon as a force play.

I understand that with a runner at first and there is a base hit, he is forced to go to second. One thing I heard discussed years ago was think of runners on consecutive bases starting with 1B as bumper cars. Seems silly, but it's an interesting visual.
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Old 05-21-17, 08:16 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
With all due respect, what would be the best way to communicate this without using the word "force" in an explanation to the coach about the throw going to first?
"coach, a run can never be scored when the third out of an inning is made by the batter-runner before he reaches first base."

It's short, it's sweet, it's to the point, and better yet...... it's right out of the rule book.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bugsy8875 View Post
I wonder if we are splitting hairs on a definition. The way almost all plays happen at 1B have the look of a force out. The batter runner is not forced to go there, but since he doesn't have another option, that play is looked upon as a force play.
When you refer to the method of a put-out as being a force out when it isn't, you help create or reinforce the myth that anytime a put-out is recorded in this fashion, it's a force-out.

For example.....

Runners at second and third, one out.... Fly ball deep to F8..... The runner at 3rd legally tags and scores, meanwhile the runner from second has a brain fart and proceeds directly to third base.... Upon his arrival, he realizes the error in his ways and attempts to return to second base. F8 makes the throw to F4 in an attempt to retire the returning runner and the throw beats him by a step and a half........ Since this play looks on the surface like a force out (F4 catches the ball with his foot on the base before the runner touches the base) people automatically assume that since the third out of the inning is via a "force-out", the run does not score.....

We know that not to be true and inform all involved that the run indeed counts....... followed by a heck of an argument.......

The latter is an example of a play that I get calls about multiple times annually from both coaches, fans, and umpires alike...... The confusion occurs most every time because someone used improper terminology.

Instead of splitting hairs, just explain things according to rule and definition.... It helps all involved.
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  #12  
Old 05-21-17, 12:45 PM
Monclova Steve Monclova Steve is offline
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What an outstanding post, AllSports12.

You are indeed a tremendous asset to this forum!
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