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  #1  
Old 05-09-17, 02:46 PM
Sokrdad Sokrdad is offline
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Ohsaa voting to extend season 2 weeks

Any thoughts on the pending vote to extend softball(and baseball) season 2 weeks, for most schools this means after school is out? Any possible conflicts with club ball schedules and tournaments ie Dayton Metro, or other Showcase tournaments players would not be available to play in????
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  #2  
Old 05-09-17, 08:07 PM
Andy27 Andy27 is offline
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I don't really see a point in it. As is, the playoffs last too long IMO for softball.

Sectionals and districts could easily be combined into one and a half weeks.

Sectional semis/byes on the last Saturday, then finals and district semis/finals Monday/Wednesday/Friday or Monday/Thursday/Saturday the next week.
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  #3  
Old 05-09-17, 08:13 PM
ringer2 ringer2 is offline
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This is a bad idea. It's hard enough to keep seniors interest this late in the year unless they are on a really competitive team. Playing sectional games once school is out? No way.
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  #4  
Old 05-09-17, 09:49 PM
DustMan1975 DustMan1975 is offline
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Maybe start a week early and go 1 week later? I know the weather is always a question in March though
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  #5  
Old 05-10-17, 05:16 AM
Sokrdad Sokrdad is offline
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I think the main reason for the 2 week extension is because of the pitch count placed on the baseball pitchers. The smaller schools are limited with their pitchers so they have to spread out their games in order to have time between games to use the same pitcher. Because many schools schedule baseball and softball away games on the same date to save on busing expenses OHSAA wants to extend the season.
MY thought is to shorten the playoffs by eliminating the fluff games in the first two rounds. I know the current system is inclusive of all teams, but if you don't have enough time to play them, then why play them.
For the very reason FOOTBALL is not all inclusive, not enough time. Howoever they want to determine to top teams, by the current coaches vote, or a harbin rating type system, reducing the teams in the playoffs to the teams that have earned the right to be there would shorten the season.
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  #6  
Old 05-10-17, 05:19 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ringer2 View Post
This is a bad idea. It's hard enough to keep seniors interest this late in the year unless they are on a really competitive team. Playing sectional games once school is out? No way.
That sounds like a personal problem for individual coaches. I would still have sectionals during the school year but the season does need extended out into the summer.
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  #7  
Old 05-10-17, 06:38 AM
ringer2 ringer2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
That sounds like a personal problem for individual coaches. I would still have sectionals during the school year but the season does need extended out into the summer.
Hardly. Do you really think the seniors on a 9-14 team want to graduate, then come back and play a regular season game and sectional semi?
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  #8  
Old 05-10-17, 06:59 AM
Sokrdad Sokrdad is offline
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If the season was shortened by playing only the top teams in the playoffs a 9-14 team wouldn't have to worry about coming back after graduation to play.
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  #9  
Old 05-10-17, 09:16 AM
Heavy Hitter 1 Heavy Hitter 1 is offline
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I completely disagree. Since football was brought up as using a similar style system to determine who is in the tournament lets compare the two. Football you can play only 1 game a week, please name me another sport were that is the case? Next football is 15 weeks from start of the season to the state finals. If you tried to have every team in the football playoff's the season would be another 4/5 weeks longer making the season almost 20 weeks. Softball 10 weeks from the start of the season to the state final's and that's with every school qualifying for the tournament. Softball season is already 1/3 shorter than football and you want to make it shorter?
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  #10  
Old 05-10-17, 09:47 AM
Sokrdad Sokrdad is offline
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I think what I am trying to say is... If they need to add time in the regular season, mostly due to the baseball pitch count issue, save a week at the end of the season by eliminating the obvious blowout 1st and 2nd round games. Why extend the season 2 weeks into June. In Football they only take the best teams,because of the time constraint. Well now they have a time constraint in the Spring. shorten the playoffs.
Girls on the better High School teams probably play on the better travel ball teams and would miss some Showcase tournaments in front of college coaches.
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  #11  
Old 05-10-17, 09:51 AM
Sokrdad Sokrdad is offline
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Softball and baseball play twice as many games as Football, Which is why it can be played in 10 weeks. How many games/weeks do you really need to figure out who the best teams are.
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  #12  
Old 05-10-17, 10:33 AM
Heavy Hitter 1 Heavy Hitter 1 is offline
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You are right you can play twice as many games so if you play all your games plus all tournament games sectional's 2, district's 2, regional's 2 and State 2 that is 8 games for a total of 35 games and 10 weeks. Even if you add 2 weeks you are still playing at most 35 games in 12 weeks compared to football who could play a maximum of 15 in 15 weeks. They season is still shorter. The only argument is, lets play less games. Why? why would you want to reduce the number of games? Why would you not want every to play in the post season? Where does that help the sport? What is the advantage to the schools and their teams?
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  #13  
Old 05-10-17, 11:20 AM
Sokrdad Sokrdad is offline
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Because Ohsaa feels the need to extend the season for BASEBALL, Softball is being dragged into a longer season. IF they have to extend the regular season that fine, I get it. But then why not try to get the season over as close to schools letting out as possible. The only games that I am suggesting to be eliminated would be the first 2 rounds of the playoffs. These games are typically blowout, shutouts. If there is a time constraint, which there apparently is, then shorten the playoffs. IMO The weaker teams did not earn the right to play in the playoffs, unless your a fan of participation ribbons.
These girls have other things to do when school is out. travel ball, jobs, vacations. whatever... The point is to play within the confines of the school year, as much as possible. And I will bet many coaches in Softball will add games with the extra time they are proposing. For baseball they would play the same amount, but i am guessing some softball teams will pick up 4 to 6 games with the extra two weeks
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  #14  
Old 05-10-17, 11:52 AM
ringer2 ringer2 is offline
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The proposal the shrink the time frame for sectional and district games is the best one. You could play all 4 games in a week.
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  #15  
Old 05-10-17, 12:10 PM
Sokrdad Sokrdad is offline
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Shrinking the playoff time by playING quicker would work , just get it done. The boys though would still be looking at mid June unless they eliminate some early playoff games.
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  #16  
Old 05-10-17, 01:49 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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It really doesn't make much sense for softball. Pitching isn't an issue like it is in baseball. With that said, I don't want to see either sport pushed further into the Summer.
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  #17  
Old 05-10-17, 10:47 PM
Andy27 Andy27 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sokrdad View Post
If the season was shortened by playing only the top teams in the playoffs a 9-14 team wouldn't have to worry about coming back after graduation to play.
Remember that record doesn't give the true quality of a team. Hoban in 2012 entered the playoffs with a 10-15 record, and made it to the regional final before losing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ringer2 View Post
The proposal the shrink the time frame for sectional and district games is the best one. You could play all 4 games in a week.

I'd do it over a week and a half like I suggested. Sectional semis on Saturday of the last week of the regular season, then the other 3 the next week.

Sure, it might cut out one regular season game for some teams, but that way pitchers get enough rest on the teams that would play 4 games in sectionals/districts.
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  #18  
Old 05-11-17, 11:39 AM
Sokrdad Sokrdad is offline
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Records do not always tell the quality of a team.
If Hoban or any team for that matter, finishes with a sub-par record, and that is the criteria used for making the playoffs then that would just be tough luck that they didn't get in that year, whether they were good or not.
But if the system to pick playoffs teams were as is today, coaches vote on seeding and the coaches might have deemed Hoban of a higher seed and awarded them a playoff spot because maybe they knew Hoban was better than their record.
OR, if a system like the Harbin ratings was used, quality wins and strength of schedule might allow a sub par record team in the playoffs. i.e St Xavier Football 2016 State Champs played a crazy tough schedule and made the playoffs with a mediocre record.
The thing is, if you want to keep the games within the school year, and baseball is adding regular season weeks to the schedule and dragging softball into their problem, then you have to shorten the playoffs. And because of the time constraint IMO I think the best thing is to eliminate the first 2 rounds of the playoffs for both baseball and softball, where MOST, not all, but MOST, of the games are blowouts.
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  #19  
Old 05-11-17, 02:11 PM
Heavy Hitter 1 Heavy Hitter 1 is offline
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It is not the best thing for the sport. Again the only reason they use a point system in football is because you only play 1 game a week. And with the point system every year there are teams left out that should be in. Some teams play in a league with smaller schools. Or some schools will play up against lesser competition and get more L2 points. It is not the best system but works for football because the nature of the sport.

It is not what is best for softball. It doesn't mater a lot of game are blowouts there is a number of pretty good games. DI is the only Div that Rnd 1 and 2 are completed: Here are the numbers for the first 2 rnds:

Round 1 - Total games rnd 1 - 56
Less 3: 16 - 28.6%
4-9: 15 - 26.8%
10+: 25 - 44.6%

Round 2 - Total games rnd 2 - 64
Less 3: 27 - 42.2%
4-9: 22 - 34.4%
10+: 15 - 23.4%

Looks like there were a lot of pretty good games.
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  #20  
Old 05-11-17, 02:36 PM
Heavy Hitter 1 Heavy Hitter 1 is offline
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Upsets Rnd 1 and 2

Rnd 1
9 over 8
10 over 7
9 over 8
9 over 8
10 over 7
13 over 11
21 over 8

Rnd 2
6 over 3
8 over 1
5 over 4
7 over 6
12 over 8
20 over 13
19 over 9
8 over 6
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  #21  
Old 05-11-17, 08:33 PM
Willie the Wimp Willie the Wimp is offline
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Next to RAIN, here is the most feared word to a HS softball coach during the second through last week in May: PROM ! Perhaps the best reason to change the schedule ???

Seriously, the softball season needs to be left as is for a variety of reasons. First, many parents schedule vacations the first couple of weeks in June. Second, many girls start summer jobs the first week in June. Then factor in youth leagues would have to back up their 14 U and 16 U teams. Also, there are a boatload of high quality tournaments being played the second week of June.

Additionally, trying to rank softball teams like they do in football won't work. There are many teams who play a cupcake schedule to make their records look good, then go to the tournament and get knocked off by a .500 team who has played a much tougher schedule. All coaches do not operate under the " I want to play the toughest schedule possible!" mantra. For many, it's all about beating up lesser quality teams to make their records look better, and make the kids feel good about themselves.

Finally, the time is coming when all seeding is going to be done electronically and brackets will be done by computer. It's already being tested in the NE District this year. It's the same kind of system that was used in OHSAA Girls Basketball this past season if I'm not mistaken. Initially, I wasn't a big fan of it but in the end, I think it will be better for the game.

To lengthen the softball season makes no practical sense whatsoever.
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  #22  
Old 05-11-17, 09:25 PM
Sokrdad Sokrdad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy Hitter 1 View Post
Upsets Rnd 1 and 2

Rnd 1
9 over 8
10 over 7
9 over 8
9 over 8
10 over 7
13 over 11
21 over 8

Rnd 2
6 over 3
8 over 1
5 over 4
7 over 6
12 over 8
20 over 13
19 over 9
8 over 6
I must say that is an impressive round one. A bunch of big upsets there.
You're not concidering the issue of keeping the season in the school year. IF
IF IF IF softball has to increase it's length of REGULAR season just to follow the baseball schedule then adding the 2 weeks and keeping the playoffs with all teams, puts the calender at MID JUNE. Most schools are getting out MID MAY. This affects Jobs, Vacations, Club teams that need to be at college showcase tournaments.
The season NEEDS TO REMAIN WITHIN THE SCHOOL YEAR.
You offer no suggested solutions to this idea. Obviously you are on the side of let everyone play even if they don't have a good record. OK, that would be fine,.... IF THERE WASN'T A TIME CONSTRAINT. BUT NOW THERE IS. Why are you avoiding the concept that OHSAA wants to schedule outside of the school calander year. The Idea of the Harbin TYPE of rating system is a SUGGESTION as to a concept that might work. And if teams want to play a cupcake schedule and find themselves on the outside of the playoffs, they probably would soon change there ways.
And with everything in life, there will be teams, and people, that feel that their team was the one that left out , and everything is unfair. Well, when you don't have enough weeks in the school year to play, and IF, IMO, they should not schedule outside the school year, then yes teams , and some good teams will be left out.
Baseball for all that matters has the same time issues, because of lengthening their regular season, and they also should shorten their post season.
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Old 05-12-17, 12:33 AM
Heavy Hitter 1 Heavy Hitter 1 is offline
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The only thing it shows is you are wrong about the first 2 rounds. The season is already short enough. If your point is just to keep it with in the school year then their is no need to change anything. The system that is in place now and for the last few decades works. As mentioned earlier the issue of extending the season has more to do with baseball than Softball.
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  #24  
Old 05-12-17, 07:01 AM
Sokrdad Sokrdad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavy Hitter 1 View Post
The only thing it shows is you are wrong about the first 2 rounds. The season is already short enough. If your point is just to keep it with in the school year then their is no need to change anything. The system that is in place now and for the last few decades works. As mentioned earlier the issue of extending the season has more to do with baseball than Softball.
Maybe you missed the whole topic.
OHSAA is voting to extend Baseball by 2 weeks to help with the pitch count problem because their are fewer pitchers at the smaller schools. AND BECAUSE MANY SCHOOLS SCHEDULE THEIR SOFTBALL AND BASEBALL AWAY GAMES TOGETHER TO SAVE ON BUSING COST, OHSAA WANTS TO EXTEND THE SOFTBALL SEASON ALSO.
So even if there is no need to change Softball scheduleing,they are wanting to do it.
So, IF THEY ARE GOING TO GO THROUGH WITH THE EXTENDED REGULAR SEASON, AND DRAG SOFTBALL INTO BASEBALL'S PROBLEM, I have suggested that their could be a way to keep BOTH BASEBALL AND SOFTBALL Season within the school year and not extend into the Summer.
I NEVER said shorten the season. The Season would STILL be 10 weeks or 11 at the worst, INSTEAD OF 12 OR 13 WEEKS. But If the regular season has to follow Baseball then the a suggested solution is to shorten the playoffs, AND one suggested solution is to eliminate the first two rounds of the playoffs. this alone saves one week.
And if that means no more 9 seeds upsetting 8 seeds, well, then that would just have to happen.
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Old 05-12-17, 08:39 AM
Heavy Hitter 1 Heavy Hitter 1 is offline
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I didn't miss anything. And since you decided to quote me, I said "As mentioned earlier the issue of extending the season has more to do with baseball than Softball." But, your solution to the problem was starting in districts, eliminating the first 2 rnds which I believe is wrong. I just showed some upsets the first 2 rnd as well as also showing there were a lot of good games. Which contradicts your assertion that the first 2rnds are nothing but blowout. My solution is leave as is, the problem is baseball. Just because baseball wants to change doesn't mean softball has to. Look at girls basketball the state finals are at least a week before the boys.
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  #26  
Old 05-12-17, 09:14 AM
Sokrdad Sokrdad is offline
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Here are some thoughts from the Baseball forum:


Mr. Red Raider Mr. Red Raider is offline
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The only way I would stretch a season out is to expand to 28 games, just for the sake of an even number.

To be honest, cabeza is, in a way, right. I would definitely support district playoff bracket featuring only eight teams.

Because in all seriousness, the sad reality is that there are some programs that have NO chance at beating an average or even below-average team, and others that are having flat-out terrible seasons, in which a playoff game would potentially increase the misery.

Playoff games like the blowouts above are no fun for either team involved.
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Old 05-11-17, 11:10 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Large single-elimination summer tourneys will often have a "silver (losers') bracket", in which teams can continue to compete after a loss. Our district I think bids for seeding at a pre-tournament meeting.

These coaches of weaker teams have a pretty good idea how things will shake out. I have to believe that if given the opportunity to bid down into a lower bracket before play begins - maybe to play three games instead of getting squashed in one game ? - most of these guys would welcome the opportunity.

And we could cut a week.
Last edited by cabezadecaballo; 05-12-17 at 06:49 AM.
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#44
Old 05-12-17, 06:29 AM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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Additionally, say a coach has a very young team, starting a a few sophomores and pedestrian upperclassmen. He knows they won't get far this year. What if he is able to "bid out" of the finals bracket, and get a few games in in a lower bracket and some playoff experience ? I'd think that would be good for everyone - and a parallel tourney bracket could both kill a week AND get more kids innings.

If it's not purely based on records, a team finishing strong and playing in a tough league could stay in the upper bracket if they wish. Last year, Stow surprised a few people, but maybe Aaron DeBord wasn't as surprised as the rest of us. Give the coaches some discretion, and a little accountability to each other, and they'll get it right more often than not.
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Old 05-22-17, 09:59 AM
Heavy Hitter 1 Heavy Hitter 1 is offline
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Based on the idea of eliminating the first 2 round. That means only the top 4 teams per district would make the playoffs. I wonder how many district champs that would eliminate this year.

D1:
1: Walsh, Canfield, Lebanon, Mason
2: Parma, Elyria,
3: Madison, Lakota West
4: Hoover, Holland Springfield, Gahanna Lincoln
5: Mount Vernon
6: Springboro
7:
8: Hilliard Bradley
9: Lancaster

D2:
1: Hoban, Keystone, Oak Harbor, Clear Fork, Lakewood
2: Shawnee, Greenville
3: Lake Catholic, Clinton-Massie, Jonathan Alder
4: Marlington,
5: Warren,
6:
7:
8:
9: Carrollton
10: Maysville

D3:
1: Champion, Tuslaw, Eastwood, Colonel Crawford, Wheelersburg, Westford, Northwestern,
2: Cardington-Lincoln, Piketon, West Liberty-Salem
3: Sandy Valley
4: Cardinal Mooney
5: Elyria Catholic,
6:
7:
8:
11: Bishop Ready

D4:
1: Hillsdale, Matthews, Strasburg-Franklin, Lucas, Gibsonburg, Danville, Clay, Williamsburg, Franklin-Monroe
2: Fairfield
3: Riverside
4: Carey
5: St Thomas Acquinas,
6:
7:
8:

Interesting 10 district champs would have been eliminated from playoffs before they even started.
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