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  #91  
Old 04-28-14, 02:07 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Since you indicated the Plate Umpire is watching for fair/foul, that tells me the ball is down the line, placing the responsibility for fair/foul - catch/no catch - and the tag up by the runner at third on this play all on the the Plate Umpire.
I know what the book says, but in this case why should the plate umpire be responsible for the tag at first and the base umpire be responsible for the tag at 3rd? U1 is already looking directly through first base and U2 has nothing better to do than get that tag at 3rd.
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  #92  
Old 04-28-14, 03:05 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
I know what the book says, but in this case why should the plate umpire be responsible for the tag at first and the base umpire be responsible for the tag at 3rd? U1 is already looking directly through first base and U2 has nothing better to do than get that tag at 3rd.
I'm assuming you meant to type PU has the tag at 3rd and the BU has the tag at 1st, so I'll address it as such.

If you place the responsibility of the tag at 3rd on the BU, he has to somehow get into position (starting from the B) to where he can get the touch of the ball by the fielder and the runner at 3rd in his peripheral so that he does not have his back to either at any time. Moving in such a manner takes him out of position to call on a throw behind the runner at first. The PU cannot rule on this as he has a potential play at the plate.

This is one of the many situations that in a two man game leaves us with holes in coverage. Many call this a money call....... For more money, you have an additional umpire and this play is covered by U2 who is the A position.
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  #93  
Old 04-28-14, 03:23 PM
743sports 743sports is offline
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If possible, can someone please tell me the rule number where it states a batter must make an attempt to not get hit by a pitch? I thought it was that a batter could not lean into a pitch, not must make an attempt to avoid it. Thanks
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  #94  
Old 04-28-14, 04:39 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by 743sports View Post
If possible, can someone please tell me the rule number where it states a batter must make an attempt to not get hit by a pitch? I thought it was that a batter could not lean into a pitch, not must make an attempt to avoid it. Thanks
FED Rule 7-3-4

If you look at posts 62, 65, and 67 on page three of this thread, you will see the same question asked by Yappi and the subsequent interpretation of the above rule.
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  #95  
Old 04-28-14, 08:32 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
I'm assuming you meant to type PU has the tag at 3rd and the BU has the tag at 1st, so I'll address it as such.
Yeah, sorry, my proofreading skills need some work!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
If you place the responsibility of the tag at 3rd on the BU, he has to somehow get into position (starting from the B) to where he can get the touch of the ball by the fielder and the runner at 3rd in his peripheral so that he does not have his back to either at any time.
The plate umpire has to do the same thing anyway. He does have a wider angle but not by much...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Moving in such a manner takes him out of position to call on a throw behind the runner at first. The PU cannot rule on this as he has a potential play at the plate.
The base umpire needs to be able to adjust to the throw. There should be enough time to do this. It just seems like it would make more sense for the base umpire to have the guy at 3rd tagging. Luckily, this is a situation where a runner will very rarely try to tag and score, and even more rarely will the runner on first be far enough off the base to have a play made on him.

Now that I say this, it will probably happen in my next game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
This is one of the many situations that in a two man game leaves us with holes in coverage. Many call this a money call....... For more money, you have an additional umpire and this play is covered by U2 who is the A position.
Agree 100%. It's amazing how much easier (and more fun) a 3 person game is.
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  #96  
Old 04-28-14, 09:32 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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The PU has the play at the plate and the BU has any play at the bags so we don't want the BU moving too far from the sweet spot (behind the mound) to get an angle on the runner at third. The PU has a much better angle by positioning himself along the first base foul line extended behind the plate.

This mechanic keep the two umpires from moving too much and allows the best coverage for any of the potential plays at the bases. As I said, it's nowhere near optimal, but it is what it is...

3-man, while better than 2-man, has it's own set of problems....

Last edited by AllSports12; 04-28-14 at 09:59 PM.
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  #97  
Old 04-29-14, 06:19 AM
DP Lane DP Lane is offline
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The PU said he wasn't sure if he- 3rd Base runner was on bag when catch was made. Coach is not disputing umps can see all especially in a two man, but the further explanation by PU is what was upsetting- " Besides no tag was applied to runner returning to base. and if you wait until pitcher is on rubber, play called and do dead ball appeal, runner is still back at third before appeal is made.

Drives me insane anymore that my fellow ump brethren will not read the rule or case books. Heck, I've seen some local meetings-not there are that many anymore due to online stuff where positioning for calls is even discussed.

Are there still crews -2/3 man who talk before the game about certain situations and who should be where?
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  #98  
Old 04-29-14, 07:17 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DP Lane View Post

Are there still crews -2/3 man who talk before the game about certain situations and who should be where?
Apparently, this crew did not know the mechanic to start with, and the rule to finish.
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  #99  
Old 04-29-14, 09:54 AM
DP Lane DP Lane is offline
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same crew-game 2

This is a little more difficult b/c judgment call ( per PU) is involved:

Runner of 1st. Line drive back to pitcher. Hits Pitcher's foot in air, ricochets upward takes hat off and in air caught by 1B.

What do you call?

PU called detached equipment rule...Hat= wall, etc...then awarded bases accordingly to his interpretation. Def. Coach nearly was tossed for arguing a "Clean Catch"
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  #100  
Old 04-29-14, 12:15 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Awarding bases for detached equipment comes into play only if the ball (batted or thrown) is touched by equipment that is thrown, tossed, kicked or held by a fielder.

What you describe is a catch by F3

Last edited by AllSports12; 04-29-14 at 12:42 PM.
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  #101  
Old 04-29-14, 01:04 PM
DP Lane DP Lane is offline
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Exactly why I offered to pay the $100.oo if the coach got tossed.

Not all umps are like this, but I have seen more and more especially the last two-three years of umpires just not knowing the rules or caring enough to take the time to get the call right.

If I've heard this excuse once... "In my interpretation...":
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  #102  
Old 05-01-14, 09:23 AM
Voice Voice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Awarding bases for detached equipment comes into play only if the ball (batted or thrown) is touched by equipment that is thrown, tossed, kicked or held by a fielder.

What you describe is a catch by F3
I hope you really are not an umpire. This is not a catch, it is detached equipment.

ART. 1 . . . A catch is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a live ball in flight and firmly holding it, provided he does not use his cap, protector, mask, pocket or other part of his uniform to trap the ball.
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  #103  
Old 05-01-14, 09:49 AM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Allsports is correct, this is not detached equipment. It has nothing to do with the definition of what a catch is and just because the ball hit his hat doesn't bring that into play. His hat was where it was supposed to be, it just happened to get hit with the ball while on his head.
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  #104  
Old 05-01-14, 10:32 AM
Voice Voice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
Allsports is correct, this is not detached equipment. It has nothing to do with the definition of what a catch is and just because the ball hit his hat doesn't bring that into play. His hat was where it was supposed to be, it just happened to get hit with the ball while on his head.
Maybe I am not understanding what happened. Did the fielder catch the ball with his hat like in the movie League of Their Own, or did the ball knock off the fielders hat and he caught the ball with his glove?
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  #105  
Old 05-01-14, 10:34 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voice View Post
Maybe I am not understanding what happened. Did the fielder catch the ball with his hat like in the movie League of Their Own, or did the ball knock off the fielders hat and he caught the ball with his glove?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DP Lane View Post
Line drive back to pitcher. Hits Pitcher's foot in air, ricochets upward takes hat off and in air caught by 1B.

What do you call?
"
Ball hit's Pitcher's foot, ricochets up in air and takes Pitcher's hat off.

Ball is caught by the First Baseman (F3)
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  #106  
Old 05-01-14, 10:42 AM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Yes, if the ball is caught with the hat that is a different story. What happened in this case was the ball just hit the hat and knocked it off, then the first baseman catches it with his glove.

I can see how it could be read that way though.
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  #107  
Old 05-02-14, 10:12 AM
Voice Voice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
Yes, if the ball is caught with the hat that is a different story. What happened in this case was the ball just hit the hat and knocked it off, then the first baseman catches it with his glove.

I can see how it could be read that way though.
Okay I misunderstood what happened. As described you just play on.
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  #108  
Old 05-05-14, 08:53 AM
DP Lane DP Lane is offline
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more frustrating umps

"In my interpretation...":

Over the weekend this was once again uttered by BU when confronted with pitching 6-1: taking sign while on rubber in wind up or stretch.

His response " now that you have showed me the book, it says shall not has to."

coach said "will and shall is same". BU comes back with until it (rule book) says has to take sign on rubber, I'm not calling it. BTW: PU had absolutely nothing to say about the subject even when shown rule book.
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  #109  
Old 05-05-14, 12:20 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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DP,

The purpose of this thread is to ask serious questions regarding the rules. If you want to voice your frustration about umpires and their competence, please do so by opening a separate thread in this forum.

Thanks.......
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  #110  
Old 05-05-14, 12:39 PM
DP Lane DP Lane is offline
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Granted I got off on a tangent about frustrating umpires, but everything I posted was about a rule or infraction that easily could have been avoided.
Even you expressed displeasure with a modicon about rotations, etc.

Good point about starting another thread...
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  #111  
Old 05-05-14, 12:44 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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That's fine......

Criticism that is tied directly to the rule/mechanics question at hand is okay to a point, I just don't want this to turn into a full blown gripe session about officials. When it gets to that point I will delete the comments. I moderate the ATR thread only. I don't touch anything in the other threads.

That doesn't mean I won't chime in time to time on the other threads if something inaccurate is posted.

Last edited by AllSports12; 05-09-14 at 10:58 AM.
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  #112  
Old 05-09-14, 09:51 AM
DP Lane DP Lane is offline
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True or False?

1st base coach ( Assistant) can request of Base ump for home plate ump ruling on pulled foot at 1st base?
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  #113  
Old 05-09-14, 10:57 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DP Lane View Post
True or False?

1st base coach ( Assistant) can request of Base ump for home plate ump ruling on pulled foot at 1st base?
He can (and they do) request all they want. It means nothing.

Now, whether or not the BU will go to the PU for help depends. The BU may be 100% certain of his call and therefore has no reason to ask for help. Also, the situation may not be one that will afford the PU a look at the play at first as he may watching other runners. (touches, obstruction, etc.....)
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  #114  
Old 05-09-14, 11:15 AM
DP Lane DP Lane is offline
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I get it that BU may not grant it or that depending on situation(s) HPU may not have best angle, but is there common courtesy to request?
Bottom line: Is Head coach the only who can request an appeal or can Assistants too?

Last edited by AllSports12; 05-09-14 at 12:49 PM.
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  #115  
Old 05-09-14, 12:58 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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As I said before, we get requests to ask for help all the time. It is rare (as it should be) that a BU will go to the PU for help on a call.

This isn't a check swing request, as we're not listening to the request for getting help from a player or from the bench. If a Head Coach feels that the play in question warrants some help from the PU, he can come out discuss with the BU what he saw and let the conversation go from there. If the BU feels that he may have been straight-lined on the play, he can consult with his partner one-on-one and then affirm or change his call.

The vast majority of the time, he will tell the coach that he had a good look at the play and he's positive in what he saw.
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  #116  
Old 05-10-14, 03:56 PM
743sports 743sports is offline
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Runners on first and third. What is the rule for the fake to third then to first? Thanks
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  #117  
Old 05-10-14, 05:26 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by 743sports View Post
Runners on first and third. What is the rule for the fake to third then to first? Thanks
Illegal under Official Baseball Rules (Pro)

Legal in High School and NCAA
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  #118  
Old 05-10-14, 07:14 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Bet it gets changed soon
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  #119  
Old 05-10-14, 08:43 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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MLB has never given a real reason for the change. Some feel that it was to help the pace of the game, but I don't see where it has had an impact from that standpoint. The players vetoed it initially, but eventually gave in.

The NCAA coaches are against the prohibition and the FED has not had serious discussions in rules meetings about the issue.

In the end, if they change it, we'll enforce it.
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  #120  
Old 05-12-14, 09:59 AM
Amigo Amigo is offline
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Correct call?

Runner on 2nd base when batted ball hit to the shortstop. While fielding the ground ball and with clear control of the ball, the runner runs into the SS and knocks her over and makes her unable to throw to first for the additional out. Could the BU award the 2nd out for the SS getting knocked down and not being able to continue to make a play at first. The runner made no attempt to go around the SS. Was a dangerous play because the SS was in a fielding position and unable to protect herself.
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