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  #31  
Old 09-14-15, 07:54 PM
ChaneyCowboy ChaneyCowboy is offline
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Let's keep it simple.

Professionals taper, with the last high intensity + high volume session about 10 days out, as their risk of injury is great, and if they do get injured, they can recover in time for their major championships. As I just stated, you only need to taper before a major competition near the end of the year, typically. Of course, you should 'taper' before every competition, but only for a few days. Further, essentially you should be 'tapered' before every high intensity session, to ensure the athlete is fully recovered and able to get the most gains out of any single high intensity training session. You may be able to taper up to 14 days out, but I think history has shown us this is a bit out dated, and the best results are usually somewhere between 7-14 days.

Since lower-level athletes (high school for example) may only need 5-7 days to taper before their major competitions, as their risk for injury is less as they can never reach the risky speeds of a world-class sprinter, for example. Thus, an 11.0 high school sprinter's "engine" doesn't get as hot as a sub-10 athlete's. So it takes them less time to 'cool down' anyways. That being said, this doesn't mean that a low level athlete should train more frequently than a high level athlete with access to multiple therapies. A schedule of three high intensity sessions per week may be easy to handle for someone with a PB of 10.3, but someone with a PB of 12 seconds would never be able to handle such a load. The 12 second sprinter can only generate so much stimulation in one single session, and thus has greater limits. The same applies to his recovery. He is not going to be able to recover from a speed session in 48 hours like the 10.3 sprinter can. The 12 second sprinter's battery is smaller, and thus drains faster. For this reason, you need not go more than two high intensity sessions per week with lower level athletes. You still may not go for a 3-HI with the 10.3 sprinter either, as it is highly individual, but chances are he will recover better. Just a clarification is all, simply that, though lower level athletes may have a shorter taper, this doesn't mean they need less recovery than a high level athlete, in fact, they need more.
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  #32  
Old 09-14-15, 07:57 PM
ChaneyCowboy ChaneyCowboy is offline
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This doesn't mean that all the high intensity sessions are dropped after 10 days out, or 7 days, or whatever the case may be, it means that there is a reduction in VOLUME - though, the intensity (speed, weight, etc.) remains the same. The reduction in volume and maintenance of intensities allows for the organism to have a sharp 'peak'.
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  #33  
Old 09-14-15, 08:01 PM
ChaneyCowboy ChaneyCowboy is offline
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Panther,

Keep in mind heart rate isn't as important as heart rate variability (HRV).

The difference in baseline HR has MANY factors, which could be fatigue, but might not be.

HRV has been used by the top athletes as a more reliable means to determining fatigue levels.

Omegawave is a great product for this, pricey, but very reliable and used by some of the world's best athletes.
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  #34  
Old 10-28-15, 01:26 AM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
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Lets see if we can bring some life back to this thread since we are down to the final couple weeks of Ohio HS running.

How much has teams tapered so far? Do you have any special workouts your team does at the end of the season?
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  #35  
Old 10-28-15, 07:14 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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This was brought up this week with my team. My guys didnt want to taper any miles. We are running well and beating teams that drilled us earlier and we are basically running about 90% of our peak miles and still doing all of the hard work (12-15% of total miles).

Not reading through all of this...... I adhere to the 10 day rule. 10 day taper to your big race. Cut somewhere between 25-40% of total miles over that period with most coming in the last 3-4 days.

The last 2 weeks, we will cut the total of threshold and VO2 max running in practice in half. I feel like as a coach.....I do very little speed work compared to others
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  #36  
Old 10-28-15, 07:53 AM
Running Man 101 Running Man 101 is offline
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Overall, we cut back our running about 20% over the final two weeks. Cut 10% the first week and another 10% the second week. Everyone on the boys and girls teams PR'd the last two weeks of racing except one person. She missed her PR by 10 seconds.

Not sure that it matters physically, but seems to help mentally. We do quality workouts on Tuesday and Thursday. Most of the cutback took place on the Thursday where we work on race pace.
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  #37  
Old 10-28-15, 08:01 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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101, that sounds about right. We cut about the same off of general mileage and upwards of 50% of the hard stuff the last 10 days.

So the 4 miles worth of VO2 on Monday was cut to 3 this week but it was still a 10 mile day. We added that mile to our warmup.

kids love those 3 mile warmups and 4 mile cooldowns!!!
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  #38  
Old 10-20-17, 10:21 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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Well its taper time......anyone have real data or insight on this based on performances?
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  #39  
Old 10-20-17, 11:24 AM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
Well its taper time......anyone have real data or insight on this based on performances?
Over the past three seasons it's been hard to objectively determine the efficacy of our taper on our kids running at the state meet. I think there is just too much variability among them to really say if the taper worked or didn't. We do taper the last 14 days or so mainly because we (as coaches) believe in it. The idea of art vs science of coaching was touched on briefly in another thread recently and I think the taper is just as artistic as any other aspect of coaching. If we, as coaches, believe a taper is beneficial we need to convey that to our kids who are curious about it and get them to buy into it as well.

I think a kid's mentality heading into the post-season is the most important determining factor in their success and/or ability to rise up to the occasion. I think it's easier to objectively determine how well a taper works/worked at the college level and especially the elite level because those athletes already have a robust mentality and a thus that variable can be somewhat eliminated with more focus being put on the science of their physical limitations, etc.

Just my thoughts.

Here's to a great post-season for all!
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  #40  
Old 10-20-17, 12:18 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
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^^^a mix of both has to be the answer. THe ability to handle the pressure has to be mentioned. THat is something that starts day 1. The team culture, goals and expectations all play a part.

As for the science, having taken ex. phys. in college I feel like not using science based training sets a kid up for failure.

We do 2 things that are part of our system:

Taper 10% of mileage 3 weeks out and add anaerobic work in the form short bouts of speed at 1600 pace. We also add back LT work as overdistance.

2 weeks out we cut another 10% and continue the workouts....

Week 3 I will leave unsaid but over the past 24 years the taper that has been worked on between my team and a few others have about 25 state apearances in different divisions and dozens of district and league trophies.

So the "system" you employ is important.
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  #41  
Old 10-20-17, 01:00 PM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
^^^a mix of both has to be the answer. THe ability to handle the pressure has to be mentioned. THat is something that starts day 1. The team culture, goals and expectations all play a part.

As for the science, having taken ex. phys. in college I feel like not using science based training sets a kid up for failure.

We do 2 things that are part of our system:

Taper 10% of mileage 3 weeks out and add anaerobic work in the form short bouts of speed at 1600 pace. We also add back LT work as overdistance.

2 weeks out we cut another 10% and continue the workouts....

Week 3 I will leave unsaid but over the past 24 years the taper that has been worked on between my team and a few others have about 25 state apearances in different divisions and dozens of district and league trophies.

So the "system" you employ is important.
I don't disagree. I have a master's degree in exercise physiology and I agree science is important. We have a scientific foundation, so to speak, when it comes to our training scheme, including tapering. I will say this, however: I think MANY people/coaches mis-employ the science and it gets them in some trouble. Misinterpreted science can be just as damaging, or more so, than knowing none at all and being a good, artistic coach.
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  #42  
Old 10-23-17, 08:27 AM
Running Man 101 Running Man 101 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOTT View Post
I don't disagree. I have a master's degree in exercise physiology and I agree science is important. We have a scientific foundation, so to speak, when it comes to our training scheme, including tapering. I will say this, however: I think MANY people/coaches mis-employ the science and it gets them in some trouble. Misinterpreted science can be just as damaging, or more so, than knowing none at all and being a good, artistic coach.
The part of the taper I still experiment with is the strength training. The more the years roll by the more I keep it in place until the "peak" week. Still not sure I have it right...

Miss-applied science is far, far worse than an artistic in most cases.

For the HS kids I think the taper is more mental than physical, but it does matter. I've gotten to the point where I switch to more LT and 800 distances the last few weeks. FAST x1, Race x2 and balance LT.
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