Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority  

Go Back   Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority > Boys HS Sports > Boys Track & Field/Cross Country

Hello Guest!
Take a minute to register, It's 100% FREE! What are you waiting for?
Register Now
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-20-17, 01:20 PM
mathking mathking is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 07-25-10
Posts: 1,403
mathking is on a distinguished road
Track on Grass?

How much different are XC courses now than back in the day? That question was rolling through my head on a drive this weekend. It started rolling around there because of the discussion about the BG golf course. There are relatively very few XC courses on golf courses these days compared to 30-40 years ago. I thought about the courses we ran on this year:

Pick North(twice), DeWine, Mason, Otterbein, Lancaster, Darby(twice), Eisenhart, Watkins and National Trails

Darby is absolutely a track on grass. Oddly, we were not supposed to run it all. We were originally scheduled to run MMOC at Bradley and OCC at Davidson. But both of those courses are basically similar to Darby, just not as smooth and fast. Bradley does have woods so I guess it's not really fair to call it track on grass. Of the other courses (not counting NT) Eisenhart is the closest to "track on grass" status, but since basically the same course was in use in the 80s it doesn't represent a change. Maybe Pick North is kind of that way, but there are woods and a hill(ish) so not really. DeWine, Mason, Otterbein and Watkins are definitely not tracks on grass. That's just our schedule, so it doesn't really prove anything.

My general sense of the disdain for "tracks on grass" is that it is at least in part because of ridiculously fast times. Some of that is obviously environmental. All you have to do to see that is look at three different weekends of races at Darby this year to see that. But that got me thinking about times now, and wondering how fast they are compared to "back in the day." All you have to do is look at district, state and regional meet distance times in track to see that on the average, runners today are a lot faster than 30-40 years ago. Just looking at state XC times (I don't have as big a set of times for XC as for track), runners today are obviously faster. And by about as much as they are for track. But state meet courses are probably better groomed and designed (let's just all agree to not consider the first year at Scioto Downs when evaluating that statement). I looked mostly at 3rd-6th place times in track and 4th - 12th place in XC in order to avoid the influence of outliers. But I don't have data from many regular meets back in the 80s except for Coffman (then Dublin) HS and some Granville stuff. It might be interesting to look at some other data and see how much courses today are faster.

My general sense is that coaches and others laying out courses make fewer really bad choices now, like having lots of sharp turns, or not enough space at the start before a course narrows or turns. I do think that open, flat, fast courses (Tiffin, MMOC, Galion,...) attract a lot of teams. So it might well be that even if courses aren't necessarily all "track on grass" more teams are running on those courses.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 11-20-17, 05:50 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 2,735
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
I am guilty....I try to make our course as fast as possible. All the property is flat and mostly wooded trails.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-20-17, 06:55 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 10-28-15
Location: Coventry, Ohio
Posts: 891
CoventryTrackXCguy is an unknown quantity at this point
Yall complaining about track on grass need to come down to the Dover Invitational. There, they don't shy away from them hills.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-21-17, 08:07 AM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 12-08-07
Location: Gehinnom
Posts: 1,591
Rohbino is on a distinguished road
Some of what teams run a lot of in meets is going to be determined where the school is located. You're in central Ohio, mathking. Central and Northwest Ohio are probably the two flattest areas of the state from a topographic consideration. It's pretty hard to find a tough course in central Ohio. Northeast and Southeast Ohio are the hilliest areas. There aren't a lot of big schools in SE Ohio but as you know, NE Ohio has a lot of them. What seems to happen every year is that times that the NE Ohio schools are running at some of their meets are looked at and some of those teams are discounted for the state meet because they might have run a few meets with slower times. SW Ohio is probably somewhere in the middle - a mix of flatter and hillier courses.

It's probably not a bad idea for teams to schedule some meets on "track on grass" courses. It helps athletes in training for fast race conditions. I believe that teams should also seek out some more challenges, though, in order to work on strength under racing conditions. It a team only runs on flat courses or hilly courses, they're missing out on some aspect of development as a runner. This is only my opinion, of course.

Speaking of courses, does anyone know why Goodyear was eliminated as a NE district? I seem to remember some discussion of when DI was moved away and then all divisions moved away the following year. I don't remember the reasoning. For those that don't know the course, it is challenging but not overly so, has a good size uphill/downhill, various grades, and is a great spectator venue. It definitely isn't a track on grass and it's a shame that it is no longer used as a district site. Some schools might use it for smaller meets (duals if anyone still has them) and I believe that the Bill Heideman summer XC meets are still there. U of Akron hasn't used it for years. They went to Firestone Metro and then Silver Creek for the Tommy Evans Invite. More than likely parking is an issue at Goodyear. I don't remember it having an abundance of parking.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-21-17, 09:58 AM
Mr. Slippery's Avatar
Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 02-05-07
Location: Slippery Rock
Posts: 17,770
Mr. Slippery is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohbino View Post
Some of what teams run a lot of in meets is going to be determined where the school is located. You're in central Ohio, mathking. Central and Northwest Ohio are probably the two flattest areas of the state from a topographic consideration. It's pretty hard to find a tough course in central Ohio. Northeast and Southeast Ohio are the hilliest areas. There aren't a lot of big schools in SE Ohio but as you know, NE Ohio has a lot of them. What seems to happen every year is that times that the NE Ohio schools are running at some of their meets are looked at and some of those teams are discounted for the state meet because they might have run a few meets with slower times. SW Ohio is probably somewhere in the middle - a mix of flatter and hillier courses.

It's probably not a bad idea for teams to schedule some meets on "track on grass" courses. It helps athletes in training for fast race conditions. I believe that teams should also seek out some more challenges, though, in order to work on strength under racing conditions. It a team only runs on flat courses or hilly courses, they're missing out on some aspect of development as a runner. This is only my opinion, of course.

Speaking of courses, does anyone know why Goodyear was eliminated as a NE district? I seem to remember some discussion of when DI was moved away and then all divisions moved away the following year. I don't remember the reasoning. For those that don't know the course, it is challenging but not overly so, has a good size uphill/downhill, various grades, and is a great spectator venue. It definitely isn't a track on grass and it's a shame that it is no longer used as a district site. Some schools might use it for smaller meets (duals if anyone still has them) and I believe that the Bill Heideman summer XC meets are still there. U of Akron hasn't used it for years. They went to Firestone Metro and then Silver Creek for the Tommy Evans Invite. More than likely parking is an issue at Goodyear. I don't remember it having an abundance of parking.
Goodyear was not a hillfest, but it was definitely a slow course. Like you said, there is the large sledding hill, and there's also a few minor climbs where the course ducks in and out of the woods, but what made that course really exhausting were the long false flats as you criss-crossed the main open area of the park. Those felt like they lasted forever.

I can only speculate that with the creation of the dedicated XC course on the piece of property north of Silvercreek, the Summit County Metroparks appears to be funneling XC meets to that venue. It could also be that the NEDAB wasn't happy with meet management and jumped at the opportunity to reconfigure the district meets in order to eliminate Goodyear as a site.
Regardless, it is a shame since Goodyear is probably the most historic XC site in NE Ohio. They hosted the sectional and district meets countless times since XC's beginning as an OHSAA sanctioned sport, and in the old days (prior to the '80s), if you ran a dual meet in the Akron area, you most likely ran it at Goodyear.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-21-17, 02:15 PM
Run4Life Run4Life is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 10-08-10
Posts: 559
Run4Life is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
Regardless, it is a shame since Goodyear is probably the most historic XC site in NE Ohio. They hosted the sectional and district meets countless times since XC's beginning as an OHSAA sanctioned sport, and in the old days (prior to the '80s), if you ran a dual meet in the Akron area, you most likely ran it at Goodyear.
I only ran cross country one year, and ran this course all of my races. We also would ride over about once every two weeks for specific workouts there. It is hard to picture no meets being held there anymore.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-21-17, 03:58 PM
mathking mathking is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 07-25-10
Posts: 1,403
mathking is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
Regardless, it is a shame since Goodyear is probably the most historic XC site in NE Ohio. They hosted the sectional and district meets countless times since XC's beginning as an OHSAA sanctioned sport, and in the old days (prior to the '80s), if you ran a dual meet in the Akron area, you most likely ran it at Goodyear.
I ran on it only once, in college. But I saw several HS meets there. Sad to see it not used for an XC races.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-21-17, 04:11 PM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-19-04
Posts: 3,002
said_aouita is on a distinguished road
I heard Graham is no longer running the XC invite at the HS, the course is "too dangerous" because of downhills; yet they have no problem with student athletes on the gridiron having repetitive brain trauma...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-21-17, 04:55 PM
Mr. Slippery's Avatar
Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 02-05-07
Location: Slippery Rock
Posts: 17,770
Mr. Slippery is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathking View Post
I ran on it only once, in college. But I saw several HS meets there. Sad to see it not used for an XC races.
Goodyear has always been 1 of my favorite places to run in NEO; especially the trails back in the woods. Last XC meet I saw at Goodyear was the Stark-Summit All-Star Race in 2013.

I believe Goodyear can still be used for meets but not nearly as frequently. Very few teams run dual meets anymore, so those are out of the mix (we dualed St. V. at Goodyear back in '08). Hoban will likely continue to hold its 3K season opening Dick Malloy Invitational at Goodyear. I don't know if the Akron City Series still holds a league meet, let alone where they contest it. Meanwhile, the Suburban League often held its league meet at Goodyear but has since moved it to Silvercreek along with the Super Duals they contest the 2nd weekend of the season.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-21-17, 09:17 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 2,735
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by said_aouita View Post
I heard Graham is no longer running the XC invite at the HS, the course is "too dangerous" because of downhills; yet they have no problem with student athletes on the gridiron having repetitive brain trauma...
I am sure when a wrestler gets injured they dont even bother.

As for the course.....there is one big downhill that isn't close to the one at Tiffin.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-22-17, 08:42 AM
starcatcher8 starcatcher8 is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 02-09-10
Posts: 103
starcatcher8 is on a distinguished road
When I was running in high school (late 1960s) we ran about half of our meets on golf courses. I remember that the Ashland College Invitational (meet for high schools & colleges was run on a golf course. We ran a district meet at Hawthorn Hills Gold Course in Lima, a district meet at Possum Run Golf Course in Mansfield, our NOL league meet was on a golf course in Galion (they were not using Amann's Park, yet). Willard ran their dual meets on a golf course. In the mid 1970s we had the NOL Meet at a golf course in Upper Sandusky. Bucyrus had their meets on a golf course. Also, the state meet was run at the Scarlet and Gray Golf Course (parking was terrible).

These courses could be quite challenging due to the hills and rolling topography. I remember the manicured grass that was so nice on which we ran. I also remember the people in the club houses who probably resented us "invading their territory and the posted warning about respecting the property and posted directions about where we were not allowed to go.

Also, the races were two miles in length, and I don't remember very many spectators attending these meets (even the state meet).
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-22-17, 12:23 PM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-19-04
Posts: 3,002
said_aouita is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
I am sure when a wrestler gets injured they dont even bother.

As for the course.....there is one big downhill that isn't close to the one at Tiffin.
Back in the woods, now they'd cross a wooden bridge. True, if a kid went off the side they could be hurt...at the same time, its dirt. Change the course or level that area a bit.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-28-17, 03:34 PM
Denizen Denizen is offline
Freshman
 
Join Date: 01-08-16
Posts: 8
Denizen is on a distinguished road
Been wondering why golf courses aren't used as much--did courses start backing out after the 'Tiger Boom'--and might they be interested in getting back in the cross country business now that rounds per course are dramatically down in the past few years?
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-28-17, 04:12 PM
Mr. Slippery's Avatar
Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 02-05-07
Location: Slippery Rock
Posts: 17,770
Mr. Slippery is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denizen View Post
Been wondering why golf courses aren't used as much--did courses start backing out after the 'Tiger Boom'--and might they be interested in getting back in the cross country business now that rounds per course are dramatically down in the past few years?
It's not worth the golf courses risking the wear and tear if it happens to be a wet weekend. 1 really muddy year was all it took for the new golf course management in Delaware to no longer want the All-Ohio Collegiate meet held on its grounds.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-28-17, 04:20 PM
CC Track Fan CC Track Fan is online now
All District
 
Join Date: 06-17-16
Posts: 158
CC Track Fan is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denizen View Post
Been wondering why golf courses aren't used as much--did courses start backing out after the 'Tiger Boom'--and might they be interested in getting back in the cross country business now that rounds per course are dramatically down in the past few years?
A golf course in Tiffin let Heidelberg host two meets including the conference meet this year. The course got torn up after 2 inches of rain the day before so don't know if they will be invited back. Plus cars had to park in grass and had a hard time getting out w/o getting stuck.

To your point golf courses are looking to CC to bring in revenue. The Delphos golf course asked about hosting the Delphos St. John's invite and would have charged no fee just wanted to make money from the concession stand. But the problem and one almost all golf course would have is not nearly enough parking for the fans and buses.

That is the one of the reasons the Ottawa Hills golf course in Toledo can host meets because there is enough parking within walking distance most golf courses are not so lucky.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 11-28-17, 08:44 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 2,735
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
Piqua had a 2 mile race on the country club. JH ran a 1 mile race. It was sweet.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Decline in Varsity Football bearleg Football 45 10-11-17 08:36 PM
PTC Metro Preseason CoventryTrackXCguy Football 89 09-07-17 10:51 PM
Winton Woods field and track resurface warriorblue Football 5 06-08-17 06:44 PM
Google removes apps that use ultrasonic frequencies to track users Yappi General Board 0 05-24-17 04:42 PM
NFL draft and Track athletes runohio Football 30 05-06-17 07:29 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:39 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Registration Booster - Powered By Dirt RIF CustUmz