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  #121  
Old 09-24-17, 10:04 PM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucksman View Post
Not sure if college implemented the FIFA rule change on DOGSO in the penalty area or not. If college did adopt the change, DOGSO in the penalty area is a YELLOW unless it meets one of the exceptions - the foul was a red card foul anyway, there was no attempt to play the ball, it was a push/hold/pull.
Also note that this applies ONLY to DOGSO fouls within the Penalty Area.....the thinking being getting the PK + Red for every foul was a little ‘overkill’. ALL DOGSO fouls occurring outside the PA are still Red Cards in all cases.

Not sure about what the college rules entail here, and they ARE written separately from FIFA’s Laws, just as the NFHS Rules are.
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  #122  
Old 09-25-17, 08:14 AM
belied dat belied dat is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear View Post
Was just told this story of the Marshall-Southern Mississippi women's college soccer game. You need to know college soccer substitution rules to answer this one. Southern Mississippi player #20 Zuazua started the 2nd half. Subbed out at 61:20 and returned at 69:22. She then subbed out again at 82:36. She subbed back in again (3rd time) at 85:37 and at 87:54 assisted on the tying goal for Southern Mississippi.

The Marshall coaches immediately challenged the goal as it was assisted by an "illegal" player. The 4th official was useless because he should have never allowed her on the field to begin with. The center referee showed #20 a yellow card and removed her from the field and let the goal stand and a kickoff by Marshall happened next.

Forgetting the obvious that nobody should have paid the 4th official, did the center referee do the correct thing?

(I have no idea if the game was played under protest or any other consequences but Marshall did score the winner in OT).
First thing I'd ask is: was the player subbed out for blood at any time? A substitution does not count if there was blood (injury on yellow/red card offense, too). Player would have to go in for the same substitute.

Second thing, this is not a yellow card offense. If the substitution was done properly -- beckoned on by the CR at the proper time -- then there is no caution in the situation. The rulebook doesn't give jurisdiction for the CR to make this decision -- this isn't an "illegal substitution" situation that is a caution.

The final doesn't matter. This situation, if the player WAS an illegal substitute, is a protestable game. Protest is granted because this was a misapplication of the rule of conduct. So, that settles it easily.
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  #123  
Old 09-25-17, 08:27 PM
sportsfanofyear sportsfanofyear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
First thing I'd ask is: was the player subbed out for blood at any time? A substitution does not count if there was blood (injury on yellow/red card offense, too). Player would have to go in for the same substitute.

Second thing, this is not a yellow card offense. If the substitution was done properly -- beckoned on by the CR at the proper time -- then there is no caution in the situation. The rulebook doesn't give jurisdiction for the CR to make this decision -- this isn't an "illegal substitution" situation that is a caution.

The final doesn't matter. This situation, if the player WAS an illegal substitute, is a protestable game. Protest is granted because this was a misapplication of the rule of conduct. So, that settles it easily.
To your first point, she was never subbed out for blood or injury at any point in the game.

The CR waived her on for the 3rd time for the 2nd half and also a Marshall player. Was this truly the fault of the 4th official?

The referees knew at this point that she had substituted illegally for the 3rd time in the 2nd half. How should the CR have properly handled the protest of the Marshall coaches?
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  #124  
Old 09-26-17, 08:39 AM
belied dat belied dat is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear View Post
To your first point, she was never subbed out for blood or injury at any point in the game.

The CR waived her on for the 3rd time for the 2nd half and also a Marshall player. Was this truly the fault of the 4th official?

The referees knew at this point that she had substituted illegally for the 3rd time in the 2nd half. How should the CR have properly handled the protest of the Marshall coaches?
That statisticians share some fault. The 4th official doesn't keep a running tally of who subs and when. There should be an open line in communication there.

The CR did what he/she could do with the knowledge he/she had. Outside of an improper yellow card, the only thing the CR does now is tell the Marshall coaches to protest the game. It was an obvious error that was probably not deliberate. The NCAA rulebook is clear that "if" a protest is done, it WILL be accepted because of the improper application of the rules.

Game doesn't have to stand IF the protest happens. Marshall should have started the paperwork immediately after the game because there is a timeline in which the matter needs to be resolved. No need to get worked up about it...unless people don't resolve the matter how it is written in the rulebook. This actually happened with a game I coached -- an illegal substitution in the first half and the team got the game winning goal with the substitute involved. I raised a fuss about it right away, but referees were adamant they were right. After halftime they apologized and told me I was right. Nothing ended up happening, even after I filed a protest. Where I was at didn't carry enough clout compared to where Marshall stands.
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  #125  
Old 09-26-17, 08:50 AM
soref soref is offline
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Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
That statisticians share some fault. The 4th official doesn't keep a running tally of who subs and when. There should be an open line in communication there.
This is 100% on the referee crew and yes, one of the duties of the 4th official is to keep a running tally of who subs in/out as long as they are instructed to do that by the Referee. They may work together with the scorer to manage this but most of the time the scorer is in the press box so unless they are all mic'd up it would be next to impossible for the scorer to communicate this with the referee crew.
Even on college matches where there aren't 4th officials the substitutions are still supposed to be tracked by the referee crew and that is a duty of AR1. It can be very difficult to manage but it's one of those jobs that the referee crew has to do to ensure a scenario like this doesn't happen.
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  #126  
Old 09-26-17, 10:50 AM
sportsfanofyear sportsfanofyear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
The CR did what he/she could do with the knowledge he/she had. Outside of an improper yellow card, the only thing the CR does now is tell the Marshall coaches to protest the game. It was an obvious error that was probably not deliberate. The NCAA rulebook is clear that "if" a protest is done, it WILL be accepted because of the improper application of the rules.
I have no idea if Marshall went ahead with a protest or not, besides Marshall did win in OT.

I am assuming that the CR acknowledges that a mistake was made because he issues a yellow card. Since he knows the player was "illegal" during the tying goal, could he, himself have disallowed the goal or does he have to allow the protest to run its course?

Assuming the game ended in a tie or even with the opponent beating Marshall but Marshall winning the protest, I would think replaying the game or even from the 2 1/2 minute remaining point would be a logistical nightmare. So, I would think if the CR recognizes the error, he should have the authority to disallow the goal. No?
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  #127  
Old 09-26-17, 12:16 PM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear View Post

Assuming the game ended in a tie or even with the opponent beating Marshall but Marshall winning the protest, I would think replaying the game or even from the 2 1/2 minute remaining point would be a logistical nightmare. So, I would think if the CR recognizes the error, he should have the authority to disallow the goal. No?
SportsFan.....I spent some time trying to research this, as I do not work college level games. And from what I can tell, from admittedly a limited amount research into the college Rules, there appears to be no ‘cut & dried’ answer with this one. While there is some mention of illegal players scoring a goal, the Rules do not directly mention illegal players assisting on a goal. Contrary to what many / some non-Officials might think, the various Rules at different levels of play might not cover every theoretical possibility we might encounter, nor even some of the more common issues. For example, the NFHS Rules do not go into detail has to what specific criteria we should or must consider regarding a DOGSO-Foul, as ATR once did for USSF play (before ATR was inexplicably done away with). Thus it becomes a very grey area, open to ‘interpretation' unfortunately.

It’s possible this Center decided a Caution for ‘illegally entering the field of play’ might have been the most appropriate sanction, but found no basis, perhaps correctly in fact, to disallow the goal. But that’s just ‘in the opinion of this referee’......
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  #128  
Old 09-26-17, 02:48 PM
sportsfanofyear sportsfanofyear is offline
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MJ - Why not treat the situation the same as when there are 12 players on the field (ultimately due to a mistake by the refereeing crew) and when a goal is scored and it is immediately pointed out to referees that there are 12 players on the field (before the kick off restart), the referee disallows the goal, regardless of which player on the offending team scores it?
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  #129  
Old 09-27-17, 11:06 AM
belied dat belied dat is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear View Post
I have no idea if Marshall went ahead with a protest or not, besides Marshall did win in OT.
That's fair. But, if it happens...ever...it's still a protestable game and the result doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear View Post
I am assuming that the CR acknowledges that a mistake was made because he issues a yellow card. Since he knows the player was "illegal" during the tying goal, could he, himself have disallowed the goal or does he have to allow the protest to run its course?
The problem is, it's not a yellow card offense. The substitute did not enter the field illegally. That is the yellow card offense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear View Post
So, I would think if the CR recognizes the error, he should have the authority to disallow the goal. No?
Any call or play can be overturned AS LONG AS the next ball hasn't been played. Also, if available, the CR can go to video replay and overturn calls. Video replay is allowed in college soccer now, as long as it's available and it is clear-cut for the decision.

It can be controversial to make this decision (disallowing the goal, restart with a goal kick), but it can be done. Either way, the protest would be ruled in favor. Play the game, win, lose, or draw. Figure out if you'd want to protest.
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  #130  
Old 09-27-17, 01:26 PM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sportsfanofyear View Post
MJ - Why not treat the situation the same as when there are 12 players on the field (ultimately due to a mistake by the refereeing crew) and when a goal is scored and it is immediately pointed out to referees that there are 12 players on the field (before the kick off restart), the referee disallows the goal, regardless of which player on the offending team scores it?
I don’t disagree SportsFan.......on several points: it IS the fault of the Refereeing Crew, and thus should never happen, theoretically. Unfortunately, “been there, had that happen”, once.....and it’ll ‘never happen again’. Also, the NFHS Rules specifically state that IF this mistake IS discovered before the KO restart, the gaol CAN be disallowed.

The difference here is that while the NFHS Rules DO specifically address this particular scenario, the college rules do not clearly cover the stated scenario, of the illegally entered player assisting with a goal, at least not that I could find in my ‘research’. That’s the difference.
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  #131  
Old 10-09-17, 10:31 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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a college game but a question nonetheless....

roughly a minute to go in the game.... foul is called, no card given. While the team sets up for the ensuing direct kick from about 30 yards from goal the clock is stopped. The team takes their time, gets everyone in place and once the kick is taken, the clock is restarted. I'm sure at least 30 seconds elapsed. Maybe more.

Is there a rule in college where the clock stops for certain things in the last couple minutes of the half or game? It sure seemed that way as no one on the field or in the crowd seemed surprised this was happening.
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  #132  
Old 10-09-17, 12:05 PM
belied dat belied dat is online now
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Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
a college game but a question nonetheless....

roughly a minute to go in the game.... foul is called, no card given. While the team sets up for the ensuing direct kick from about 30 yards from goal the clock is stopped. The team takes their time, gets everyone in place and once the kick is taken, the clock is restarted. I'm sure at least 30 seconds elapsed. Maybe more.

Is there a rule in college where the clock stops for certain things in the last couple minutes of the half or game? It sure seemed that way as no one on the field or in the crowd seemed surprised this was happening.
No.

Only reason the clock stops in that situation is if a referee determined a team (winning team, for example) would be trying to delay the restart. No card needs to be given, but the referee can stop it if he/she deems necessary.

Clock stoppages in college: goals, injuries, caution/ejection, delay as determined by CR, and substitutions in last 5 minutes of game if winning team subs. I'm sure there are "other" stoppages, but those would be the most common. If none of those are the reason for the example's stoppage, then it would be a surprising stoppage.
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  #133  
Old 10-09-17, 12:52 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Originally Posted by belied dat View Post
No.

Only reason the clock stops in that situation is if a referee determined a team (winning team, for example) would be trying to delay the restart. No card needs to be given, but the referee can stop it if he/she deems necessary.

Clock stoppages in college: goals, injuries, caution/ejection, delay as determined by CR, and substitutions in last 5 minutes of game if winning team subs. I'm sure there are "other" stoppages, but those would be the most common. If none of those are the reason for the example's stoppage, then it would be a surprising stoppage.
Only thing I could think of would be that the opposing team somehow delayed the restart in some fashion that didn't warrant a yellow card. I checked the box score and there was no substitution. Thanks

Thing that bugs me though..... so there are USSF rules, buildout lines at the youngest levels, some different rules for High Schools and some different college rules?

Ugh. No wonder so many fans and coaches are mixed up on the rules.
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  #134  
Old 10-09-17, 09:53 PM
MJ_SoccerRef MJ_SoccerRef is offline
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i’ll share a 'personal moment’ from this season.....

VB, 2M/2W.....2-1 game, final 30 seconds, trailing team on the attack (of course) to my end of the field. Ball possessed into the attacking third & then is cleared off the EL by the D for a Corner. The young ball boys, incompetent all game long, have now vanished into the darkness of night. Attacking team trying to locate and/or retrieve the ball sent far OOT. I stopped the clock for the attacking team to get set for their corner......explained to the Captains from both teams that, IMHO, ‘in the spirit of fairness’, this was the right thing to do and I would do it for either team in this situation. No one complained, they understood. Clock started on the CK take, after a blocked shot, the ball was cleared & the game ended. I cannot remember if or when I’ve done that before, but reading how this game was played, the level of sportsmanship, the competitiveness the guys played this one with......’it felt right’.
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  #135  
Old 10-10-17, 07:31 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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^^^ that makes sense
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  #136  
Old 10-12-17, 08:46 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Is this action, no matter where it happens on the field ever not a hand ball?



I've been at 2 games now where something very similar has happened and we're calling this 'ball-to-hand'.

Thoughts?
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  #137  
Old 10-12-17, 09:23 AM
soref soref is offline
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Originally Posted by EastYoungstown View Post
Is this action, no matter where it happens on the field ever not a hand ball?



I've been at 2 games now where something very similar has happened and we're calling this 'ball-to-hand'.

Thoughts?
IMO, on this short clip alone, that would be handling based on the player having his arms in an unnatural position trying to make himself bigger and the ball making contact with his arm/hand.
Now, the only way that I may not call that handling is if he were pushed which caused his arms to move outward from his body and then the ball making contact.
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  #138  
Old 10-12-17, 10:13 AM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Originally Posted by soref View Post
IMO, on this short clip alone, that would be handling based on the player having his arms in an unnatural position trying to make himself bigger and the ball making contact with his arm/hand.
Now, the only way that I may not call that handling is if he were pushed which caused his arms to move outward from his body and then the ball making contact.
Agreed 100%. To me the unnatural position trumps everything unless a shove is involved.
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