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  #31  
Old 09-29-17, 11:45 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilsco View Post
Yes -that absolutely could be a major factor. I don't know enough about where a lot of the kids went to junior high so that is entirely possible. I do know a number of the varsity kids from club and a good number went to public junior highs. It just seems off, especially in light of the number of players in the program (CCD and CCS can barely field a full JV team).

Not really my issue to fight - I would actually think SCD would prefer to be in a higher division
It begs the question....how many of the JVA & JVB kids have been at the school for a long time but don't get much of a chance at varsity because of the transfers over the years?

I think they will get challenged in the tournament this year for what its worth. Might not be anyone out of the SW but they aren't the same team as last year for sure.
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  #32  
Old 10-13-17, 09:40 PM
Termite2 Termite2 is offline
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The issue is whether Summit is a catholic or private school. Summit maintains that they are part of the catholic education system; if the OHSAA determines that they are a private school, then students coming from catholic grade schools are counted on a different tier.
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  #33  
Old 10-13-17, 10:31 PM
Ilsco Ilsco is offline
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Absolute and complete crock of crap by the OHSAA. Summit used both classifications in its calculation (independent and Catholic) and its competitive balance numbers were therefore low. OHSAA knows this and Summit has acknowledged it. OHSAA action is to suggest that NEXT YEAR Summit may get moved to Div II.

This is a complete sham and a slight to any school in Div III, boys or girls. OHSAA could have moved Summit up at any time this season (as they did on a couple of girls programs in Cleveland ) and they have even shuffled a couple of teams in the SW District in other sports between divisions AFTER the tournament draw last week. (This issue was raised in this post a month ago!)

I have lost what little respect I ever had for the OHSAA as this clearly sends the message that it is okay to manipulate the numbers any way a school can and there will be no consequence.

Short article on the issue on line in the Cincinnati Enquirer
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  #34  
Old 10-13-17, 11:13 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Ilsco View Post
Absolute and complete crock of crap by the OHSAA. Summit used both classifications in its calculation (independent and Catholic) and its competitive balance numbers were therefore low. OHSAA knows this and Summit has acknowledged it. OHSAA action is to suggest that NEXT YEAR Summit may get moved to Div II.

This is a complete sham and a slight to any school in Div III, boys or girls. OHSAA could have moved Summit up at any time this season (as they did on a couple of girls programs in Cleveland ) and they have even shuffled a couple of teams in the SW District in other sports between divisions AFTER the tournament draw last week. (This issue was raised in this post a month ago!)

I have lost what little respect I ever had for the OHSAA as this clearly sends the message that it is okay to manipulate the numbers any way a school can and there will be no consequence.

Short article on the issue on line in the Cincinnati Enquirer
I don't know if anything was done intentionally by summit. Sounds like they feel they are a Catholic school and supplied numbers accordingly.

NOW, I think OHSAA could have fixed this before the tournament started, if indeed something needed to be fixed. This shouldn't be something that is that hard to rectify. Determine the correct school classification, recount the numbers, and voila.....you have your answer. I guess it's an example of what is wrong with a bureaucracy.
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  #35  
Old 10-13-17, 11:29 PM
Pitchperfect Pitchperfect is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
I don't know if anything was done intentionally by summit. Sounds like they feel they are a Catholic school and supplied numbers accordingly.



NOW, I think OHSAA could have fixed this before the tournament started, if indeed something needed to be fixed. This shouldn't be something that is that hard to rectify. Determine the correct school classification, recount the numbers, and voila.....you have your answer. I guess it's an example of what is wrong with a bureaucracy.


If the school had integrity it would self discipline


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  #36  
Old 10-13-17, 11:32 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Pitchperfect View Post
If the school had integrity it would self discipline


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What do you think they should do? They can't just move up a division on their own. Not play in tournament at all?
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  #37  
Old 10-13-17, 11:37 PM
Pitchperfect Pitchperfect is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
What do you think they should do? They can't just move up a division on their own. Not play in tournament at all?


I can tell you other programs that had violations put themselves under suspension. I have seen teams forfeit games, lose playoffs, tournaments etc. It comes done to their reputation. Summit is a quality institution and I wouldn't want that tarnished if I was in their shoes. I have to much respect for their history.


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  #38  
Old 10-13-17, 11:52 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Pitchperfect View Post
I can tell you other programs that had violations put themselves under suspension. I have seen teams forfeit games, lose playoffs, tournaments etc. It comes done to their reputation. Summit is a quality institution and I wouldn't want that tarnished if I was in their shoes. I have to much respect for their history.


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Who said there were.violations? Sounds like there is confusion as to the type of school they are. Doesn't sound like they purposely did anything wrong.
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  #39  
Old 10-14-17, 12:09 AM
Pitchperfect Pitchperfect is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Who said there were.violations? Sounds like there is confusion as to the type of school they are. Doesn't sound like they purposely did anything wrong.


It doesn't matter it's an infraction. AD's , coaches and administration have made mistakes before and you deal with it and learn. You take responsibility learn from it and move on. It's about being the right example and be responsible. I hope they do the right thing.


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  #40  
Old 10-14-17, 12:19 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Pitchperfect View Post
It doesn't matter it's an infraction. AD's , coaches and administration have made mistakes before and you deal with it and learn. You take responsibility learn from it and move on. It's about being the right example and be responsible. I hope they do the right thing.


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But I am not convinced it's a mistake or infraction. It doesn't involve ineligible players, false records, illegal transfers, etc. It's a reporting issue under a new system.
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  #41  
Old 10-14-17, 05:52 AM
Ilsco Ilsco is offline
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I am not sure Summit did anything intentional but they classified themselves as BOTH Catholic and Independent and took advantage of the lower multiplier depending on the player. At the very least Summit was trying to be tricky (and this was primarily being done with an eye toward football and staying in Div 6 - which didn’t happen - not soccer). The failure to move them up is simply hard to understand, especially if I were a few of the other programs that were moved in August and September when their numbers were discovered to be wrong.

My biggest complaint is with OSHAa but have to admit I have lost a bit of respect for Summit as they knew last month their numbers were incorrect
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  #42  
Old 10-14-17, 10:08 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilsco View Post
I am not sure Summit did anything intentional but they classified themselves as BOTH Catholic and Independent and took advantage of the lower multiplier depending on the player. At the very least Summit was trying to be tricky (and this was primarily being done with an eye toward football and staying in Div 6 - which didnít happen - not soccer). The failure to move them up is simply hard to understand, especially if I were a few of the other programs that were moved in August and September when their numbers were discovered to be wrong.

My biggest complaint is with OSHAa but have to admit I have lost a bit of respect for Summit as they knew last month their numbers were incorrect
It sounds like they classified themselves as Catholic, which they are. They are part of the archdiocese of Cincinnati. What they are not part of is OCSAA which I believe is the organization OHSAA would use for "same system of education" for Catholic schools. Christian schools have one too. I think even Jewish schools have one.

Summit is k-12 so I am sure they designated themselves as their own feeder school. Anyone enrolled at summit since grade 7 is tier 0. Because they consider themselves Catholic it looks like they could have incorrectly classified any students that attended Catholic feeder schools (same system of education since 7th grade) as tier 1. Any transfers from public or non-catholic schools are tier 2.

I don't know if they were being purposely "tricky" or they just didn't do their homework properly. Its that middle group of students, the tier 1s, that are in question. If OHSAA does not recognize them as part of the same system of education because they don't belong to OCSAA then those students would all be tier 2. Even if they only have 1 in that classification that would put them into d2 it looks like.

I agree this could have been fixed before last Sunday.
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  #43  
Old 10-14-17, 02:50 PM
GeorgetownTiger GeorgetownTiger is offline
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Question, would any team have a leg to stand on if after they played Summit to appeal to the OHSAA that they team they played should forfeit based upon the team failed to provide accurate enrollment figures? I have not seen this situation with Summit hit the news yet, would that put more pressure on OHSAA to do what is right?
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  #44  
Old 10-14-17, 04:27 PM
Termite2 Termite2 is offline
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It is in the news; Summit is in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati school system, they are not a parochial school, they are an independent catholic school, which means that they are not now, or have ever been affiliated with a parish or parishes, the Archdiocese did away with the parochial system.
OCSAA is an accreditation organization and not a school system, Summit is accredited by the North Central Association; or North Central Association of Colleges and Schools. To further complicate matters, catholic schools can also be members of NCEA.
To summarize:
Summit is a Archdiocese of Cincinnati school, but independently operated. Summit does not have to answer to the Archdiocese, like St. X. Other Archdiocese schools are also independently operated but do have to answer to the Archdiocese, like Moeller.
Summit maintains that they are part of the catholic school system of Cincinnati; but it could be construed that they are not.
The problem lies in the OHSAA bylaw; " Did the student attend your designated feeder school since the start of 7th grade and, if he/she did not enter the high school at the beginning of 9th grade, has he/she maintained continuous enrollment in the same system of education?” It does not define "system" Are Archdiocese of Cincinnati schools in the same system?
The answer is yes and no
I would consider them in the same system because they are part of the recognized Archdiocese of Cincinnati schools; but there is wiggle room for those who would consider them not. OHSAA is probably going to issue a new bylaw giving a better definition, which will result in a different interpretation next year but is going to let them stay where they are this year because "system of education" is not defined

Last edited by Termite2; 10-14-17 at 04:42 PM..
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  #45  
Old 10-14-17, 09:25 PM
Pitchperfect Pitchperfect is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
It sounds like they classified themselves as Catholic, which they are. They are part of the archdiocese of Cincinnati. What they are not part of is OCSAA which I believe is the organization OHSAA would use for "same system of education" for Catholic schools. Christian schools have one too. I think even Jewish schools have one.



Summit is k-12 so I am sure they designated themselves as their own feeder school. Anyone enrolled at summit since grade 7 is tier 0. Because they consider themselves Catholic it looks like they could have incorrectly classified any students that attended Catholic feeder schools (same system of education since 7th grade) as tier 1. Any transfers from public or non-catholic schools are tier 2.



I don't know if they were being purposely "tricky" or they just didn't do their homework properly. Its that middle group of students, the tier 1s, that are in question. If OHSAA does not recognize them as part of the same system of education because they don't belong to OCSAA then those students would all be tier 2. Even if they only have 1 in that classification that would put them into d2 it looks like.



I agree this could have been fixed before last Sunday.






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  #46  
Old 10-14-17, 09:33 PM
2731 2731 is offline
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Lol Summit! This whole thing is hilarious. What a joke.

They're good enough, but they're not.

They're Catholic but the're not.

They recruit, but they don't.

They can count, but they can't.

They're honest, but they're not.

Did I miss anything?
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  #47  
Old 10-14-17, 10:08 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Termite2 View Post
It is in the news; Summit is in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati school system, they are not a parochial school, they are an independent catholic school, which means that they are not now, or have ever been affiliated with a parish or parishes, the Archdiocese did away with the parochial system.
OCSAA is an accreditation organization and not a school system, Summit is accredited by the North Central Association; or North Central Association of Colleges and Schools. To further complicate matters, catholic schools can also be members of NCEA.
To summarize:
Summit is a Archdiocese of Cincinnati school, but independently operated. Summit does not have to answer to the Archdiocese, like St. X. Other Archdiocese schools are also independently operated but do have to answer to the Archdiocese, like Moeller.
Summit maintains that they are part of the catholic school system of Cincinnati; but it could be construed that they are not.
The problem lies in the OHSAA bylaw; " Did the student attend your designated feeder school since the start of 7th grade and, if he/she did not enter the high school at the beginning of 9th grade, has he/she maintained continuous enrollment in the same system of education?Ē It does not define "system" Are Archdiocese of Cincinnati schools in the same system?
The answer is yes and no
I would consider them in the same system because they are part of the recognized Archdiocese of Cincinnati schools; but there is wiggle room for those who would consider them not. OHSAA is probably going to issue a new bylaw giving a better definition, which will result in a different interpretation next year but is going to let them stay where they are this year because "system of education" is not defined
I mentioned ocsaa because I thought it was the organization ohsaa referenced in a CB document I saw that had info on the same system of education. I went back and looked and they named the Catholic conference of Ohio along with a few other ones. I don't know if the Catholic conference of Ohio and ocsaa are one in the same or not. But ohsaa had named some organizations they would use to determine the same system of education. The list comes from Ohio department of education.
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  #48  
Old 10-15-17, 09:56 AM
Termite2 Termite2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
I mentioned ocsaa because I thought it was the organization ohsaa referenced in a CB document I saw that had info on the same system of education. I went back and looked and they named the Catholic conference of Ohio along with a few other ones. I don't know if the Catholic conference of Ohio and ocsaa are one in the same or not. But ohsaa had named some organizations they would use to determine the same system of education. The list comes from Ohio department of education.
Catholic conference of Ohio is an umbrella organization, the Catholic school system is based on the Diocese/Archdiocese in the US.


Catholic high schools in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati [24 high schools]
Name Gender Location Ownership
Alter Co-ed Kettering Archdiocesan[7]
Badin Co-ed Hamilton Interparochial[8]
Carroll Co-ed Dayton Archdiocesan[9]
Catholic Central Co-ed Springfield Archdiocesan[10]
Chaminade-Julienne Co-ed Dayton Marianists,
Srs. of Notre Dame[11]
DePaul Cristo Rey Co-ed Cincinnati Srs. of Charity[12]
Elder Male Cincinnati Interparochial[13]
Fenwick Co-ed Middletown Archdiocesan
La Salle Male Cincinnati Archdiocesan[14]
Lehman Catholic Co-ed Sidney Archdiocesan[15]
McAuley Female Cincinnati Interparochial[16]
McNicholas Co-ed Cincinnati Interparochial[17]
Moeller Male Cincinnati Interparochial
Mother of Mercy Female Cincinnati Interparochial[18]
Mount Notre Dame Female Cincinnati Interparochial[19]
Purcell Marian Co-ed Cincinnati Archdiocesan[14]
Royalmont Academy[20] Co-ed Mason Independent
Roger Bacon Co-ed Cincinnati Interparochial[14]
Seton Female Cincinnati Parochial
St. Rita Co-ed Cincinnati Independent[21]
St. Ursula Academy Female Cincinnati Independent (Ursulines)
St. Xavier Male Cincinnati Jesuit
Summit Country Day Co-ed Cincinnati Independent
Ursuline Female Cincinnati Independent[22]

There are 92 elementary schools in the Archdiocese, most are run by a parish or group of parishes.
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  #49  
Old 10-15-17, 12:25 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Ok. Thanks for the info. Ohsaa didn't list the diocese as their source to determine the same system of education. So I don't know where that leaves things.

I don't know much about the school itself. Safe to assume they are more of a college prep high school?
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  #50  
Old 10-15-17, 12:38 PM
getagrip getagrip is offline
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Originally Posted by Pitchperfect View Post
If the school had integrity it would self discipline


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Self-discipline for what?
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  #51  
Old 10-18-17, 07:38 PM
ringer2 ringer2 is offline
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Summit should be able to choose their "like school system" as either independent schools or Catholic schools, but not both. Picking two systems is not a fair approach.
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