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  #121  
Old 09-26-18, 12:58 PM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Pro-shot clock people should have to officiate a game with a bad table crew and then tell me if they still think it's a good idea. Heck even otherwise good tables will have trouble with a shot clock.

I predict the average game in Ohio would have at least half a dozen delays to correct it.

On top of the cost, hiring an operator, and getting every official up to speed? And the fact that it's a solution in search of a problem at this level?

No thank you.

Newsflash: a shot clock does not make bad basketball any better.
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  #122  
Old 09-26-18, 01:51 PM
SMARTY22 SMARTY22 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I'll admit I'm biased because I watch alot of GCL games. It's probably not as bad as the GCL across the state.

But it's gotten to the point that refs allowing such physical play, and so many sets and 1-2 minute possessions, it's terrible to watch. It's like "well the GCL has a reputation of playing football on the basketball court, so we're just going to let them kill each other." Every game I watch, and I'm not exaggerating, there are 2-3 legit tackles. Yes, like football. And they are rarely called. It's not basketball most of the time.

The refs allow it because those GCL coaches are very good and respected, and they let the coaches dictate the physicality of the game and basically throw the rules out the window when it comes to hand-checking, chest bumping, grabbing, holding and general contact that should be a foul 100% of the time. That's not defense.

Being able to do that on defense, and coaches running 1-2 minute sets make it unwatchable at times. It's not surprising most games are 36-32. I absolutely believe the coaches inhibit player development by running their teams like this, and I think that kind of sucks. I also think, by doing this, they are basically telling their teams that they don't think they're good enough to compete based on talent, so they're going to ugly it up. A GCL school shouldn't have to do that. They have plenty of kids to put together good teams without that crap.

Obviously, Moeller is an exception because they get the best basketball players in the region.
So your issues are mostly with Coaches,and Officials. Any chance the Coaches play a certain style because of the personnel they may or may not have? Now that we have established your issues with the Game. What does shot clock have to do with it? Why do you keep watching Games that are hard to watch?

Get out this yr and watch a few games outside of GCL and see what you think.
These School Districts don’t want/need to spend $$ installing and maintaining Shot Clocks as well as finding someone qualified to run them. Why doesn’t GCL use 3 Officials for Frosh or JV?
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  #123  
Old 09-26-18, 05:11 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Based on your description, I can't see how a shot clock would have screwed this game up.

A shot clock isn't a substitute for defensive effort. I would argue that those defenders would have been even more tired because there would have been more possessions.
I think your response here tells me what I needed to know. You truly do not understand the concept of tiring out a defense by making multiple passes while on offense. A coach that has mentored me often tells his players early in a game not to take an open shot until they have made the defense work for multiple passes and reverses. It will pay off in the second half.

The other thing many coaches say is know the time and situation of the game. You may play very deliberate offensive ball even when behind early in the game. Conversely, you may slow the game to a crawl late in the game with a small lead.
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  #124  
Old 09-26-18, 08:45 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Then maybe you shouldn't have said those things then if you didn't really mean them.

They ARE playing basketball...just not what YOU want to see. I think we understand that point by now.
What we see in Ohio high school is not modern basketball. By the way, how did it get to this point. When I was in school, it was never like this.. and we did not have a shot clock. The grabbing and physicality, the holding the ball etc. Really.. when I went to watch these games after being gone for 20 years, things had changed a lot.
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  #125  
Old 09-26-18, 08:49 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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Also, quit complaining about the cost. If we decided to have shot clock, we could figure this out. They do it in AAU tourneys. Again, this is about the kids. Ask the kids, do they want a shot clock and play the game like they see it on TV or do they want to "pass it around the perimeter against a defense to tire them out.
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  #126  
Old 09-26-18, 09:15 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quit complaining about costs? That is a serious concern. You write the check then.

I bet if you asked the kids if they would rather win the game or lose I bet they will all say win.
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  #127  
Old 09-26-18, 10:14 PM
SMARTY22 SMARTY22 is offline
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Schools and School Boards been complaining about not having enough money for additional security measures and you think they can afford to install and maintain Shot Clocks in there Districts Middle and High Schools? Would have to start by raising the admission to 10-12$ a person like AAU
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  #128  
Old 09-26-18, 10:28 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
Also, quit complaining about the cost. If we decided to have shot clock, we could figure this out. They do it in AAU tourneys. Again, this is about the kids. Ask the kids, do they want a shot clock and play the game like they see it on TV or do they want to "pass it around the perimeter against a defense to tire them out.
The shot clocks used at the AAU and other summer events are cheap wireless pieces of equipment. Full of bugs and a headache and a half.

And as far as the kids are concerned........ their desires are never considered when rule changes are made........ and for good reason
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  #129  
Old 09-26-18, 10:45 PM
BASESWIMPARENT BASESWIMPARENT is offline
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So earlier in this thread, it was all about the kids, now we should not consider them. Your statement confirms something that I have suspected for years, OHSAA athletics is not about the players.. they are all just passing through. As far as the cost goes, I can find a myriad of things that are more worthy of our tax dollars than high school athletics. If we wanted to do it, we would find a way to pay for it. And yes, I am talking about all the athletic turf football fields and hi speed LED scoreboards, lights on fields etc. The cost issue is a red herring. The bottom line, is that there is a belief that not having a shot clock evens the chance of winning from the more skilled, better conditioned athlete to the better coached, more strategically-minded student.

Last edited by BASESWIMPARENT; 09-26-18 at 10:58 PM.
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  #130  
Old 09-27-18, 06:37 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
So earlier in this thread, it was all about the kids, now we should not consider them.
You have me confused with someone else as I have never asserted on here, or anywhere else that this "is all about the kids".

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Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
The cost issue is a red herring.
The assertion was made that the OHSAA should be responsible for the cost of installing, maintaining, and operation of the equipment. I responded by identifying over $3million in up front installations costs, just in high schools.

There is some validity of the red herring point of view for some schools and districts. In my opinion many districts crave having "shiny new things" to show off. That however isn't the reality for the majority. (I've had the displeasure of trying to convince a room full of AD's that a $5 per game increase for basketball officials was a nominal increase, less than $500 annually, You'd have thought I was asking for the first born from each)
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  #131  
Old 09-27-18, 06:59 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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"It's all about the kids."

In my experience as an official, most of the time when I hear this phrase (which has been many times going back to when I was doing youth wreck ball), it's nothing more than lip service. In reality the person saying it is usually more interested in what he himself wants than what "the kids" want. And I believe that to be true on this thread, as well.

Acting like cost is or should be irrelevant for something like this is nothing short of absurd. The schools have bigger fish to fry, as far as they are concerned. Heck we can't even convince conferences to hire 3-person crews in some places where they would provide a lot of value.
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  #132  
Old 09-27-18, 07:02 AM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
What we see in Ohio high school is not modern basketball. By the way, how did it get to this point. When I was in school, it was never like this.. and we did not have a shot clock. The grabbing and physicality, the holding the ball etc. Really.. when I went to watch these games after being gone for 20 years, things had changed a lot.
I completely agree things have changed alot, especially since 1987, the year the 3 point line was added to the high school game.

What draws me to basketball more than any of the other sports is the ability of kids with differing skill sets to compete. In track , you either can run or you can't, little strategy involved.

The introduction of the three point line benefited the smaller player who could shoot the ball. The more physical play benefited the slightly undersized player who could now use physical contact to disrupt inside shots. Every time there is a change, someone is benefited and someone is harmed. My point is, do you really want to change the sport so that the teams naturally equipped to compete are narrowed down to those who can run and shoot?

It would be similar to football deciding only spread offenses could be used, no more triple option. That would benefit the fast, athletic teams while harming the slower teams who can now compete with the use of misdirection of the triple option.
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  #133  
Old 09-27-18, 07:09 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BASESWIMPARENT View Post
What we see in Ohio high school is not modern basketball. By the way, how did it get to this point. When I was in school, it was never like this.. and we did not have a shot clock. The grabbing and physicality, the holding the ball etc. Really.. when I went to watch these games after being gone for 20 years, things had changed a lot.
I might be biased, but it has been a point of emphasis from the OHSAA and NFHS (and even the NCAA) for multiple years now that physical post and perimeter play needs to be cleaned up by officials. In my area as a whole we do a pretty good job of enforcing those rules.

Given that the percentage of games where stall ball is used is so miniscule compared to all the games played in Ohio, I'd be curious to know what your definition of "modern basketball" is. I guess the 41 other states that don't use the shot clock don't have "modern basketball," either (some of the best teams and players come from those states, btw).

Again, solution looking for a problem.
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  #134  
Old 09-27-18, 08:35 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
I might be biased, but it has been a point of emphasis from the OHSAA and NFHS (and even the NCAA) for multiple years now that physical post and perimeter play needs to be cleaned up by officials. In my area as a whole we do a pretty good job of enforcing those rules.
Do you ever officiate GCL games? Is it impossible to officiate because of the constant holding, tackling, pushing, and grabbing?

It's literally gotten to the point where it's not basketball. It's football on the basketball court.
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  #135  
Old 09-27-18, 08:51 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Do you ever officiate GCL games? Is it impossible to officiate because of the constant holding, tackling, pushing, and grabbing?

It's literally gotten to the point where it's not basketball. It's football on the basketball court.
I am not on the GCL staff but have officiated a Moeller game before. As far as I remember there wasn't any excessive physicality that our crew failed to address.

I find it hard to believe that varsity officials would allow "holding, tackling, pushing, and grabbing" without addressing it.
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  #136  
Old 09-27-18, 08:51 AM
?????? ?????? is offline
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I would to love see a shot clock for a variety of reasons and most were stated by Trey2k. I have no idea how much it would cost but it seems like someone could simply make one more button on the clock?
To me the biggest problem is the way the game is called. When the defender gets to put one hand on the hip of the dribbler it makes it tough to penetrate and create of the dribble. So teams relentlessly run screens to get open looks, usually a 3. If your undersized its your best chance to win. Like it or not it has become a shootout off screens
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  #137  
Old 09-27-18, 08:52 AM
Rabbit Rabbit is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Do you ever officiate GCL games? Is it impossible to officiate because of the constant holding, tackling, pushing, and grabbing?

It's literally gotten to the point where it's not basketball. It's football on the basketball court.
A little exaggeration. I saw Moeller combine for about 12 dunks in 2 games vs. Elder. Looked like basketball to me?
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  #138  
Old 09-27-18, 09:04 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Rabbit View Post
A little exaggeration. I saw Moeller combine for about 12 dunks in 2 games vs. Elder. Looked like basketball to me?
Well the game at Elder, Moeller had no dunks because they were literally tackled. No exaggeration at all...tackled on a fast break.

All the dunks were at Moeller.

Most GCL teams (now) play defense with both hands. It makes the game impossible without elite level players.

Last edited by trey2k; 09-27-18 at 09:20 AM.
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  #139  
Old 09-27-18, 09:16 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by ?????? View Post
I would to love see a shot clock for a variety of reasons and most were stated by Trey2k. I have no idea how much it would cost but it seems like someone could simply make one more button on the clock?
LOL. Yea, that's all it takes. Just a button.
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  #140  
Old 09-27-18, 09:30 AM
?????? ?????? is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
LOL. Yea, that's all it takes. Just a button.
A shot clock and an on/off button. maybe the button is on the wrist of one of the refs. Seems like someone smarter than me could figure it out. Either way I think the 3 pointer and the way the game is called is the biggest reason for the lack of scoring these days
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  #141  
Old 09-27-18, 09:45 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by ?????? View Post
A shot clock and an on/off button. maybe the button is on the wrist of one of the refs. Seems like someone smarter than me could figure it out. Either way I think the 3 pointer and the way the game is called is the biggest reason for the lack of scoring these days
Officials that are on this board have already said it would require another official at the table to do the shot clock. You would also need shot clocks at both ends along with the controls. It's not as simple or cheap as you hope.
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  #142  
Old 09-27-18, 09:45 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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It definitely could be done. Would there be some growing pains and some funding concerns, sure, but after a year or two of use, it would be a moot point.

Funny how exaggeration doesn't work both ways.
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  #143  
Old 09-27-18, 10:36 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by ?????? View Post
I would to love see a shot clock for a variety of reasons and most were stated by Trey2k. I have no idea how much it would cost but it seems like someone could simply make one more button on the clock?
To me the biggest problem is the way the game is called. When the defender gets to put one hand on the hip of the dribbler it makes it tough to penetrate and create of the dribble. So teams relentlessly run screens to get open looks, usually a 3. If your undersized its your best chance to win. Like it or not it has become a shootout off screens
I can't tell if you're being facetious, but no, it's not nearly that simple. And on-court officials are not controlling it. That doesn't happen in college games, it certainly won't happen in high school.

Defenders are not allowed to "put a hand on the hip of the dribbler," either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
It definitely could be done. Would there be some growing pains and some funding concerns, sure, but after a year or two of use, it would be a moot point.

Funny how exaggeration doesn't work both ways.
No it wouldn't be a "moot point."

I've been going to the same small colleges for a few years now to officiate. And guess what? The bad shot clock operators are still bad-and in many cases they have been running the shot clock longer than I have been officiating college basketball. Even the competent operators still have screwups that we have to fix during the game.

Bring that into an OHSAA game with bad tables and officials who haven't officiated a shot clock in 20+ years and watch the chaos.
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  #144  
Old 09-27-18, 10:36 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Officials that are on this board have already said it would require another official at the table to do the shot clock. You would also need shot clocks at both ends along with the controls. It's not as simple or cheap as you hope.
I can't tell if he's serious or just naive in suggesting that the on-court officials should control the shot clock.
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  #145  
Old 09-27-18, 10:42 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post
I've been going to the same small colleges for a few years now to officiate. And guess what? The bad shot clock operators are still bad-and in many cases they have been running the shot clock longer than I have been officiating college basketball. Even the competent operators still have screwups that we have to fix during the game.

Bring that into an OHSAA game with bad tables and officials who haven't officiated a shot clock in 20+ years and watch the chaos.
At the HS level, this is why this type of clock would have to be manned by an official...... and they absolutely interrupt the flow of the game. (no matter what pace the game is being played )


This isn't about a "button". Except in rare cases the operator will not be prompted by an official to re-cycle or re-set the clock. This requires the operator to know when the clock should or should not re-set or re-cycle both by rule and by the situation at hand.

Stoppages in play to address the clock are commonplace in the summer circuit.

All that said....

It still boils down to people wanting HS to be like College..... These are the same people who sit in the stands and offer their advice and criticisms on how their teams or programs should be run with zero experience in administering either. they do the same with officiating. (all with zero repercussions when they are wrong..... they just move on to the next event where they whack away at people again)

It's just not a good idea to legislate and/or limit style of play at this level.
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  #146  
Old 09-27-18, 10:53 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post

It still boils down to people wanting HS to be like College..... These are the same people who sit in the stands and offer their advice and criticisms on how their teams or programs should be run with zero experience in administering either. (and with zero repercussions when they are wrong..... they just move on to the next event where they whack away at people again)

It's just not a good idea to legislate and/or limit style of play at this level.
I agree that "most" people feel this way. I also think the most savvy and in-touch basketball minds without a doubt think it could help the high school game improve (when you take out the logistical complexities).

Last edited by trey2k; 09-27-18 at 11:14 AM.
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  #147  
Old 09-27-18, 11:00 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by zebrastripes View Post

Defenders are not allowed to "put a hand on the hip of the dribbler," either.

LOL...yeah, I know that. That doesn't mean it's called.

Ask anyone else who watches GCL basketball. It's out of control physical with defenders doing plenty of hand-checking (sometimes two hands), grabbing, and pushing.

The theory is that if they constantly do it, they can't call everything. And they don't.

Also, the coaches in the GCL are so well-respected, they get away with it more.
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  #148  
Old 09-27-18, 11:33 AM
zebrastripes zebrastripes is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
LOL...yeah, I know that. That doesn't mean it's called.

Ask anyone else who watches GCL basketball. It's out of control physical with defenders doing plenty of hand-checking (sometimes two hands), grabbing, and pushing.

The theory is that if they constantly do it, they can't call everything. And they don't.

Also, the coaches in the GCL are so well-respected, they get away with it more.
If that is your perspective, that's fine. I have a feeling the officials who work in the GCL would have a different one.

And I have officiated Moeller and called the game just like any other game. No coach decides how my games are officiated–the rules and my assigners do.
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  #149  
Old 09-27-18, 12:41 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Moeller is kind of the exception on the physical stuff. They play physical, but not the grabbing, holding, and tackling you see from the others. They have plenty of talent to not have to do that, and their players are true skill players.

They have been known to stall however; even with all that talent.
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  #150  
Old 09-27-18, 02:17 PM
?????? ?????? is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
At the HS level, this is why this type of clock would have to be manned by an official...... and they absolutely interrupt the flow of the game. (no matter what pace the game is being played )


This isn't about a "button". Except in rare cases the operator will not be prompted by an official to re-cycle or re-set the clock. This requires the operator to know when the clock should or should not re-set or re-cycle both by rule and by the situation at hand.

Stoppages in play to address the clock are commonplace in the summer circuit.

All that said....

It still boils down to people wanting HS to be like College..... These are the same people who sit in the stands and offer their advice and criticisms on how their teams or programs should be run with zero experience in administering either. they do the same with officiating. (all with zero repercussions when they are wrong..... they just move on to the next event where they whack away at people again)

It's just not a good idea to legislate and/or limit style of play at this level.
I believe you when you talk about the nightmare of bringing in a shot clock, I just personally believe its coming to high school hoops, just a matter of time. I was not trying to be silly, but with technology getting better it seems it can be run by a refs wrist, or an extra button, its only start, stop, restart. No biggie either way, I still love high school hoops.
As far as the hand on your hip while playing defense, it is all the time, and everywhere. That doesn't mean I am calling out poor refs( you could not pay me enough to listen to the idiots screaming at refs every Friday night) its just what I see throughout Cincinnati. In the GCL its often 2 hands. Maybe not as bad from Moeller, they do not need that because they have the horses.
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