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  #511  
Old 02-15-18, 09:49 AM
eyes r burning eyes r burning is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dion View Post
Would like some clarity on what makes a flip illegal with one leg in the air. Is a gramby (sp) legal? Can it be a sideways kick and tuck? Saw one where a short squat wrestler, maybe 220, kicked sideways and did kind of a somersault. They were pretty close to the mat, not standing straight up. The referee did not make the call while the other coach insisted it was illegal. The referee said it did not meet the criteria of being illegal.
Somersault: an acrobatic movement in which a person turns head over heels in the air or on the ground and lands or finishes on their feet.

The only phrase that makes this definition troublesome is "or on the ground".

I think it's safe to say that the rules committee made this ruling as a safety issue. They aren't worried about the wrestler rolling across their own body (Granby). The rule was made to deter kids from leaping into the air and committing a flip.

Don't make a mountain out of a mole hill. Sounds like a coach looking for a cheap point.
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  #512  
Old 02-15-18, 12:26 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campolongo View Post
Not trying to dig too deep.....


Using your example ---- Team B does indeed withdraw without penalty. Is Team A "locked in" to that forfeit they presented even though it was out of sequence?

OR... due to Team B withdrawing, can Team A essentially restart the process and then decide to check in a wrestler?
This is covered by Rule 1-4-1.
In this case wrestler B can not report in the proper order (following wrestler A) because team A opted to forfeit. Team A's choice is "locked in".
Team B would have the option of accepting the forfeit (and gaining the 6 points) or forfeiting the weight (a double forfeit).
The bottom line is that once team A decides on their choice, they can not change their minds. Team B then has to decide what they want to do.
Hopefully that is clear.
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  #513  
Old 02-19-18, 12:02 PM
bulldowg_Wrestling19 bulldowg_Wrestling19 is offline
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If a wrestler is kicked out of a tournament, are all of his wins now considered losses? How does it work?
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  #514  
Old 02-19-18, 12:33 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldowg_Wrestling19 View Post
If a wrestler is kicked out of a tournament, are all of his wins now considered losses? How does it work?
It works that way because of the Penalty Chart in the Rule Book.

The exact language is "....no team points can be earned in an individual tournament. In dual meet competition, any team points earned shall be negated."

IOW, any points earned up until that time are removed as though they never happened.
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  #515  
Old 02-19-18, 12:49 PM
bulldowg_Wrestling19 bulldowg_Wrestling19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
It works that way because of the Penalty Chart in the Rule Book.

The exact language is "....no team points can be earned in an individual tournament. In dual meet competition, any team points earned shall be negated."

IOW, any points earned up until that time are removed as though they never happened.
So if a wrestler were in a round robin pool tournament and was 4-0 and wrestling his last match of the day and was kicked out, would the 4 matches he won turn into wins for his opponents?
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  #516  
Old 02-19-18, 12:56 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldowg_Wrestling19 View Post
So if a wrestler were in a round robin pool tournament and was 4-0 and wrestling his last match of the day and was kicked out, would the 4 matches he won turn into wins for his opponents?
No, they do not turn into wins, his efforts turn into "nothing". They never happened. Plus, he gets a vacation.
if you go back far enough, this happened in Columbus in, maybe, 2008 or so. Defending Champion Cam Wade was DQ'd in the finals match and lost all his team points. This dropped his team from 2nd to about 10th or something.
The people he defeated on the way to the finals did not get a win because he was DQ'd.
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  #517  
Old 02-19-18, 01:05 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldowg_Wrestling19 View Post
So if a wrestler were in a round robin pool tournament and was 4-0 and wrestling his last match of the day and was kicked out, would the 4 matches he won turn into wins for his opponents?
I just realized you said "round robin".
There, IMO, the answer is not so clear. The scores have been posted so that throws it into a little different light.
I would have to ask to be sure.
I will get back to you after I ask someone more important (which could about anyone).
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  #518  
Old 02-19-18, 02:06 PM
bulldowg_Wrestling19 bulldowg_Wrestling19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
I just realized you said "round robin".
There, IMO, the answer is not so clear. The scores have been posted so that throws it into a little different light.
I would have to ask to be sure.
I will get back to you after I ask someone more important (which could about anyone).
So if they don't turn into wins for his opponents, does the loss to him atleast get negated?
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  #519  
Old 02-19-18, 02:12 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldowg_Wrestling19 View Post
So if they don't turn into wins for his opponents, does the loss to him atleast get negated?
I am waiting for a return call from one of our SRI's so I don't mislead you.
The Round Robin part is something I never saw addressed in the past.

As of now, prior to getting the official verdict, I would guess the answer to be "no". That is because they did actually lose to him prior to the DQ. However, it makes for any interesting question.
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  #520  
Old 02-19-18, 02:54 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bulldowg_Wrestling19 View Post
So if they don't turn into wins for his opponents, does the loss to him atleast get negated?
Okay, I just spoke with one of the SRI's and he gave me the official word on this.

With a round robin event, the wrestler who was DQ'd would lose that match (with the resulting points loss) only. In addition he could not wrestle in that event (tournament) going forward.
BTW, these succeeding duals would NOT count toward the suspension to be served.
The duals he wrestled in previously that day are not affected in any way. His wins in those duals still count as wins for him. The reasoning is that each of those duals is a completely separate event. Also, those events are completely finished.
I have to admit that I am glad to have asked. I never had it happen so the answer is interesting.
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  #521  
Old 02-19-18, 03:41 PM
dion dion is online now
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When pts. for A TF have been earned at what point is the match stopped and the TF awarded?
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  #522  
Old 02-19-18, 04:28 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dion View Post
When pts. for A TF have been earned at what point is the match stopped and the TF awarded?
When the points are awarded.
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  #523  
Old 02-19-18, 04:33 PM
dion dion is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
When the points are awarded.
I should have been more specific. When should the match be stopped, and the pts. awarded?
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  #524  
Old 02-19-18, 04:46 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dion View Post
I should have been more specific. When should the match be stopped, and the pts. awarded?
When the situation ends.
IOW, if there is a 13 point difference and wrestler A takes wrestler down, straight to his back, the situation (in this case the possibility of a fall) doesn't end until the wrestler B is out of NF criteria. The 2 points for the TD would have been enough for the tech fall but we do not stop it until the fall can not be earned from that situation. In this case you might end up with a 17 or 18 point difference.
If there had been a 12 point difference, the TD alone would not do it. There would have to be a NF count to get a 15 point difference.
Does that help?
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  #525  
Old 02-19-18, 05:21 PM
dion dion is online now
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the situation (in this case the possibility of a fall) doesn't end until the wrestler B is out of NF criteria.

Okay, we're getting closer. Is the match stopped when the defensive wrestler is out of NF CRITERIA or when his back is no longer EXPOSED to the mat. There is a definite difference.
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  #526  
Old 02-20-18, 08:55 AM
bulldowg_Wrestling19 bulldowg_Wrestling19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Okay, I just spoke with one of the SRI's and he gave me the official word on this.

With a round robin event, the wrestler who was DQ'd would lose that match (with the resulting points loss) only. In addition he could not wrestle in that event (tournament) going forward.
BTW, these succeeding duals would NOT count toward the suspension to be served.
The duals he wrestled in previously that day are not affected in any way. His wins in those duals still count as wins for him. The reasoning is that each of those duals is a completely separate event. Also, those events are completely finished.
I have to admit that I am glad to have asked. I never had it happen so the answer is interesting.

Okay great, thank you for your time and explanation, Mr. Behrens.



Another question: if a wrestler has bounced back and forth between a varsity and a B/JV schedule, do matches from only the Varsity schedule count towards his record if he/she were to wrestle at sectionals?
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  #527  
Old 02-20-18, 09:40 AM
jmog jmog is offline
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Maybe not a ref question, but will try here first.

What is required to seed/separate two sectional champions at district (make sure they are on opposite side of bracket) and two district champions at state?
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  #528  
Old 02-20-18, 10:39 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dion View Post
the situation (in this case the possibility of a fall) doesn't end until the wrestler B is out of NF criteria.

Okay, we're getting closer. Is the match stopped when the defensive wrestler is out of NF CRITERIA or when his back is no longer EXPOSED to the mat. There is a definite difference.
I suppose the way most guys do it is to award the points, and end the match, when they feel there is no longer the possibility of a fall.
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  #529  
Old 02-20-18, 10:46 AM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmog View Post
Maybe not a ref question, but will try here first.

What is required to seed/separate two sectional champions at district (make sure they are on opposite side of bracket) and two district champions at state?
It is definitely not something that we have anything to do with.
You have to remember that you will have four Sectional champs going into a District and four District champs feeding the State event. Therefore the chances of being away from another champion are 2 out of 3. Some champion is alway going to be in the same half bracket with another champion. The same on the other side.
I am reasonably sure the both of these are complete random and blind draw. it even rotates from weight class to the next weight class. Sometime it works out that two champs (who may be the two best wrestlers on paper) are apart and sometimes they are in the same half bracket. Complete luck of the draw.
As far as I know, there is no way to "make sure".
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  #530  
Old 02-20-18, 11:38 AM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dion View Post
the situation (in this case the possibility of a fall) doesn't end until the wrestler B is out of NF criteria.

Okay, we're getting closer. Is the match stopped when the defensive wrestler is out of NF CRITERIA or when his back is no longer EXPOSED to the mat. There is a definite difference.

If the defensive wrestler's back is no longer exposed to the mat the match should be stopped and the points awarded. In other words no matter how tight that cradle is, if the defensive man bellies down or action is "checked" with the back no longer exposed to the mat, the match is stopped, and the TF is awarded.
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  #531  
Old 02-20-18, 02:00 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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I found it. It is only at the state draw (not districts) and only in the case that 2 district champs both finished in the top 3 the previous year at state.

Quote:
D. Returning OHSAA State Placers that finished either 1st, 2nd or 3rd the previous year will be separated in
accordance with their previous place provided they qualify for the State Individual Tournament as a District
Champion.
They are not separated at districts no matter what, the sectional champs are randomly distributed (and different at each weight class).
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  #532  
Old 03-01-18, 02:25 PM
AuburnTgrFan AuburnTgrFan is offline
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Question for clarification. Question #1 If in the course of the match the wrestlers end up with one going into a backbow, you stop it for potierntially dangerous, correct? Question #2 Now if wrestler A in the course of the match begins to bow the back on wrestler B is the match stoppped immediately or does he allow the match to go on until the official determines there is pressure that may injure wrestler B. Seems like that would be to say a full nelson is not illegal until you crank on it. Saw this at a sectional last weekend, wrestler layed on mat for several minutes and had to be helped off the mat. The coach was upset and said something to the official aboput a backbow being illegal by application, ended up losing a team point, for defending his injured wrestler. Two on mat and assistant stood there and watched. So was ref right, to let the move go could see the pain on wrestlers face from the stands.

Last edited by AuburnTgrFan; 03-01-18 at 02:26 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #533  
Old 03-01-18, 03:35 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AuburnTgrFan View Post
Question for clarification. Question #1 If in the course of the match the wrestlers end up with one going into a backbow, you stop it for potierntially dangerous, correct? Question #2 Now if wrestler A in the course of the match begins to bow the back on wrestler B is the match stoppped immediately or does he allow the match to go on until the official determines there is pressure that may injure wrestler B. Seems like that would be to say a full nelson is not illegal until you crank on it. Saw this at a sectional last weekend, wrestler layed on mat for several minutes and had to be helped off the mat. The coach was upset and said something to the official aboput a backbow being illegal by application, ended up losing a team point, for defending his injured wrestler. Two on mat and assistant stood there and watched. So was ref right, to let the move go could see the pain on wrestlers face from the stands.
Wasn't there and didn't see it but Rule 7-1-5q answers your question.
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  #534  
Old 03-01-18, 04:13 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
Wasn't there and didn't see it but Rule 7-1-5q answers your question.
Don't have a rule book in front of me, and it isn't free on NFHS, what's the jist of 7-1-5q?

Sorry, just interested in this answer for my own edification.
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  #535  
Old 03-01-18, 04:29 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmog View Post
Don't have a rule book in front of me, and it isn't free on NFHS, what's the jist of 7-1-5q?

Sorry, just interested in this answer for my own edification.
No problem.
Rule 7 is Infractions
Section 1 is Illegal Holds/maneuvers
Article 5 lists "other illegal holds/maneuvers
Para q lists "back bow"

Also, in the picture part of the Rule Book, there is a photo of a back bow
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  #536  
Old 03-01-18, 04:30 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post
No problem.
Rule 7 is Infractions
Section 1 is Illegal Holds/maneuvers
Article 5 lists "other illegal holds/maneuvers
Para q lists "back bow"

Also, in the picture part of the Rule Book, there is a photo of a back bow
Is this like an over scissor where it isn't illegal until pressure is applied or like a full nelson where as soon as the hands touch the head its called?
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  #537  
Old 03-01-18, 04:47 PM
jfide650 jfide650 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmog View Post
Is this like an over scissor where it isn't illegal until pressure is applied or like a full nelson where as soon as the hands touch the head its called?
When the pressure is toward the head, it is illegal by application.
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  #538  
Old 03-01-18, 04:47 PM
Jim Behrens Jim Behrens is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmog View Post
Is this like an over scissor where it isn't illegal until pressure is applied or like a full nelson where as soon as the hands touch the head its called?
The way it reads in the caption under the photo is "....by application when pressure is toward the head, whether the defensive wrestler is on his stomach or hip".

The way i would view it is that if there was no pressure, I am not sure how you would create a "bow". IOW, to get the (back) bow, there has to be pressure applied.

BTW, the over-scissor used to be illegal by application but that changed probably 15 years ago. I never liked the change because, IMO, but the time pressure is applied, the damage could already be done. OTOH, the rules people never asked my opinion.
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  #539  
Old 03-01-18, 05:06 PM
jmog jmog is offline
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Originally Posted by Jim Behrens View Post

BTW, the over-scissor used to be illegal by application but that changed probably 15 years ago. I never liked the change because, IMO, but the time pressure is applied, the damage could already be done. OTOH, the rules people never asked my opinion.
Thanks for the answers by the way.

The same could be said for a body scissors or spladle, not illegal unless used to hurt, once it is really squeezed (body scissor) or yanked (spladle) the damage is already done (especially spladle).

I guess that's more of a stretch/possible muscle tear where over scissor can tear knee ligaments.
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  #540  
Old 03-01-18, 05:33 PM
350zjk 350zjk is offline
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[QUOTE=jmog;6998775]Thanks for the answers by the way.

The same could be said for a body scissors or spladle, not illegal unless used to hurt, once it is really squeezed (body scissor) or yanked (spladle) the damage is already done (especially spladle).

FWIW, My usual call in these situations is PD. Which isn't popular with either coach, because you're not awarding a penalty pt. to one wrestler, and by stopping action the other wrestler cannot continue working for the Fall or NF. These holds are not illegal by definition so when I see pain being inflicted I usually give them the benefit of doubt.
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