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  #1  
Old 07-05-17, 03:02 PM
Vinegar Vinegar is offline
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USDA Killing HS?

Or is it a fad that will pass? Do they want to kill High School?

Heard Cincinnati Girls Soccer was hit hard as 15-20 of the best girls players in the city won't play High School because of the United States Developmental program? Is this legit?

If so, what a shame.
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  #2  
Old 07-05-17, 03:39 PM
fearthekeeper fearthekeeper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinegar View Post
Or is it a fad that will pass? Do they want to kill High School?

Heard Cincinnati Girls Soccer was hit hard as 15-20 of the best girls players in the city won't play High School because of the United States Developmental program? Is this legit?

If so, what a shame.
I wouldn't say 15-20 of "the best", but probably accurate to say 15-20 players. Some of the best chose to play HS because they already have their offers and want to finish their senior year with kids they've played with the last 4 years.

It will be a bigger issue in the next couple of years. What does HS soccer really do for elite players? Truly Elite players get scholarships through their club, not through their HS. Sure, it's fun to play with your class mates, but the training stinks in a lot of cases, and let's face it high schools don't really attract the cream of the crop when it comes to coaches.
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Old 07-05-17, 03:48 PM
belied dat belied dat is offline
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If 15-20 kids "kill" the sport, then there's much more hurting it.

I hate these discussions for numerous reasons, and this jumping off the deep end is one of the reasons. It's no different than the argument that football fans/parents have that adding boys soccer "kills" football. Soccer was added, and it never killed football.

If 15-20 girls want to play DA, then so be it. They do. At one point, there were roughly 4000 boys involved in the DA across the country (this was before U13, U12 was added). The same argument was brought up nationally. Those numbers mean that less than 100 boys PER STATE are playing DA. If 100 additional boys truly "kill" HS boys soccer...there's more issues than those boys.

Sure, HS may miss out on some additional quality. That's okay. Instead of addressing this issue, why not figure out why the participation rate drops drastically from pre-HS to HS. That'll help make up the numbers lost by adding a DA. These girls not playing only opens up the door for another girl to get a shot and hopefully continue their interest in the sport.
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  #4  
Old 07-05-17, 04:07 PM
coachg coachg is offline
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Originally Posted by fearthekeeper View Post
I wouldn't say 15-20 of "the best", but probably accurate to say 15-20 players. Some of the best chose to play HS because they already have their offers and want to finish their senior year with kids they've played with the last 4 years.

It will be a bigger issue in the next couple of years. What does HS soccer really do for elite players? Truly Elite players get scholarships through their club, not through their HS. Sure, it's fun to play with your class mates, but the training stinks in a lot of cases, and let's face it high schools don't really attract the cream of the crop when it comes to coaches.
I kind of disagree. I believe that players playing for something bigger than themselves is good for mental development. Donning your schools colors and playing for your community with your friends I believe is not replaced unless you're wearing the Red, White, and Blue. At the end of the day its up to the player but to say USDA is killing HS soccer or HS soccer doesn't benefit an "elite" player is laughable. Many lessons are not all about skill with a ball. Many come from being a leader of a team that many dont get to do in club, playing for something bigger than you, pride of your community / school, and other lessons that are taught through HS sports. Dont get me wrong if your going to play for the National Team I dont think you should play HS. At the end of the day the player and family will make the decision that is best for them and DA, or the ECNL are both just a path that allow more options to players and how is that a bad thing?
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  #5  
Old 07-05-17, 04:18 PM
buckshooter5 buckshooter5 is offline
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These kids will look back with regret not playing HS.
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  #6  
Old 07-06-17, 07:28 AM
coachg coachg is offline
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Originally Posted by buckshooter5 View Post
These kids will look back with regret not playing HS.
Maybe, maybe not. Its a choice they made and they have plenty of options to chose from. It's not our place to judge them or their decision. All we can do is hope them made an informed decision.
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  #7  
Old 07-06-17, 07:54 AM
fearthekeeper fearthekeeper is offline
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Originally Posted by coachg View Post
I kind of disagree. I believe that players playing for something bigger than themselves is good for mental development. Donning your schools colors and playing for your community with your friends I believe is not replaced unless you're wearing the Red, White, and Blue. At the end of the day its up to the player but to say USDA is killing HS soccer or HS soccer doesn't benefit an "elite" player is laughable. Many lessons are not all about skill with a ball. Many come from being a leader of a team that many dont get to do in club, playing for something bigger than you, pride of your community / school, and other lessons that are taught through HS sports. Dont get me wrong if your going to play for the National Team I dont think you should play HS. At the end of the day the player and family will make the decision that is best for them and DA, or the ECNL are both just a path that allow more options to players and how is that a bad thing?
No community has ever rallied around high school soccer and kids don't play for community pride. Football (and maybe basketball) is the only high school sport that an entire community might get behind. High school soccer players are playing in front of their parents and maybe grandparents and possibly a few friends. I would argue they have more pride playing for their club.
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  #8  
Old 07-06-17, 08:31 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Originally Posted by fearthekeeper View Post
No community has ever rallied around high school soccer and kids don't play for community pride. Football (and maybe basketball) is the only high school sport that an entire community might get behind. High school soccer players are playing in front of their parents and maybe grandparents and possibly a few friends. I would argue they have more pride playing for their club.
I disagree...have you been to HS games at Sycamore/Mason/Summit/Anderson/Lakota...there are a few hundred in the stands...most DA games have about 20 fans (they do have college scouts and soccer coaches I'll give you that) IMO HS is more about the program/team and offers great lessons in sacrifice and leadership. Probably easier to see in the top HS programs.
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  #9  
Old 07-06-17, 08:31 AM
Sports_Fan_ Sports_Fan_ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fearthekeeper View Post
No community has ever rallied around high school soccer and kids don't play for community pride. Football (and maybe basketball) is the only high school sport that an entire community might get behind. High school soccer players are playing in front of their parents and maybe grandparents and possibly a few friends. I would argue they have more pride playing for their club.
Well I don't know where you live, but where I am from boys and girls are at all high school events. Club and High School have place. I would argue big time soccer guru coaches and clubs want money! High School sports cost nothing maybe $100 with club being 2k and in some places much more! Lastly, there are just as many BAD club coaches as BAD high school coaches!
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  #10  
Old 07-06-17, 09:18 AM
buckshooter5 buckshooter5 is offline
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Regrets. The DA is the worst idea ever. HS is fun for these kids, a different atmosphere, one void of the hovering coach and parent, where kids can actually play a little and have fun. Taking that away is ridiculous. Yeah, I can say with 100% certainty that the DA is a bad deal.
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  #11  
Old 07-06-17, 09:26 AM
2731 2731 is offline
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Originally Posted by buckshooter5 View Post
Regrets. The DA is the worst idea ever. HS is fun for these kids, a different atmosphere, one void of the hovering coach and parent, where kids can actually play a little and have fun. Taking that away is ridiculous. Yeah, I can say with 100% certainty that the DA is a bad deal.
HS is void of hovering coach and parent?




OMG my side hurts now.
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  #12  
Old 07-06-17, 09:54 AM
cincysports4 cincysports4 is offline
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I agree cincinnati is a big high school sports community. Communities care more about high school sports then club. Have seen several hundred and more at high school games. Lots of newspapers and community follow HS soccer a lot.
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  #13  
Old 07-06-17, 10:47 AM
Rohbino Rohbino is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coachg View Post
Maybe, maybe not. Its a choice they made and they have plenty of options to chose from. It's not our place to judge them or their decision. All we can do is hope them made an informed decision.
I agree 100% with what you're saying here, coach, but this is a 180 from what your opinions of a few years ago were. Those opinions were back in the days of OE being the only Cincinnati area club that offered an alternative to fall HS soccer. If I remember it accurately, in your eyes OE was the evil empire back then.
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  #14  
Old 07-06-17, 11:42 AM
coachg coachg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohbino View Post
I agree 100% with what you're saying here, coach, but this is a 180 from what your opinions of a few years ago were. Those opinions were back in the days of OE being the only Cincinnati area club that offered an alternative to fall HS soccer. If I remember it accurately, in your eyes OE was the evil empire back then.
Close Rohbino. I didnt like the pressure that was being put on players by a few OE coaches telling them that if they played high school instead of club that the team wouldn't save their spot for the spring. Now with so many choices for kids of all skill levels the DA offers a program that the kids have a choices. Also if you remember correctly (you may be having memory issues with your age. ) I have agreed with you that the market will drive things and choices are good for the players to have. While I personally wouldnt allow my kid to play DA unless I knew they would be wearing the Red, White, and Blue its a choice that has many paths to DI offers.
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  #15  
Old 07-06-17, 01:38 PM
Hoosier Parent Hoosier Parent is offline
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Great points, brought up about the value of playing HS.
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  #16  
Old 07-06-17, 04:32 PM
CitrusCrunch CitrusCrunch is offline
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thats the problem now a days too much oversight what the heck does the united states department of agriculture have to do with soccer geez lousie
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  #17  
Old 07-06-17, 05:25 PM
fearthekeeper fearthekeeper is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Happygoluckky View Post
I disagree...have you been to HS games at Sycamore/Mason/Summit/Anderson/Lakota...there are a few hundred in the stands...most DA games have about 20 fans (they do have college scouts and soccer coaches I'll give you that) IMO HS is more about the program/team and offers great lessons in sacrifice and leadership. Probably easier to see in the top HS programs.
I have been to many HS games at these schools and other big public schools as well as small private schools. At the big public schools where there are 2,000-4,000 students you might see 100-200 fans at a game especially if it's a rivalry game. On average most of the people in the stands at non-rivalry games are family members. These numbers are in no way an entire community supporting HS soccer. Even at the rivalry games a good number of the fans are family. Two teams with 18-20 players X 1.5 parents X 1.5 siblings x.4 grandparents x .3 boyfriends= a lot of people
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  #18  
Old 07-06-17, 05:30 PM
fearthekeeper fearthekeeper is offline
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Originally Posted by Sports_Fan_ View Post
Well I don't know where you live, but where I am from boys and girls are at all high school events. Club and High School have place. I would argue big time soccer guru coaches and clubs want money! High School sports cost nothing maybe $100 with club being 2k and in some places much more! Lastly, there are just as many BAD club coaches as BAD high school coaches!
WAY more bad coaches at high school than club, unless you choose to be a part of a ty club
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  #19  
Old 07-07-17, 06:11 AM
Ihatekickball Ihatekickball is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fearthekeeper View Post
WAY more bad coaches at high school than club, unless you choose to be a part of a ty club


My daughter used to attend and play for Mason. We would have maybe 100 people in the stands (mostly parents). A small handful of them would be students. But we have played away games at some schools where they may have 10 to 20 people in the stands. I think that is more the norm than what Mason would typically draw. We aren't talking about football where the whole town and student body shows up to every home game.

And coaching is all over the map in highschool. There are exceptions, but the vast majority of them have no idea what they are doing. IMO most kids played highschool soccer because there simply weren't other options.
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  #20  
Old 07-07-17, 07:16 AM
Robson_Coaches Robson_Coaches is offline
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Just going to hit a lot of points and throw my 2 cents in.
Kids have goals when they sports, for soccer it used to be HS for most, now its just some. Many wearing Lloyd jerseys set their bar higher and will choose what avenue best gets them there. Players who go the distance will not regret playing HS. As they get older they will only talk about their previous experiences. College gives that same experience as HS but at a higher volume and just think if they go Pro or play for the USA, think they are going to talk about of if only I played my last 2 years HS we might of won the conference. I played in college and dabbled in "semi pro" those are the games you mostly talk about.

The crowds and fans only follow if the school is winning, or going the distance in tournament, or playing that "rival." Same with our pro teams reds aren't winning ill got to a FCC game instead.

Coaches only flock to the more successful HS programs. We know which schools have select players and what clubs they pull from. Yes money is an issue, but every coach knows HS pay is awful but as a coach do I want to get paid less for coaching a quality program or do I want to baby sit.
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  #21  
Old 07-07-17, 08:14 AM
Sports_Fan_ Sports_Fan_ is offline
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Originally Posted by fearthekeeper View Post
WAY more bad coaches at high school than club, unless you choose to be a part of a ty club
Not sure what a "ty" club is but being a good "trainer" doesn't qualify you as a good "coach". I know tons of certified trainers that are terrible coaches! A piece of paper does not deem you a great coach!

DA - I just looked it up and I could be wrong. It looked like we have 7 National teams which I am assuming leaves our USA team as separate. These ages are 15-23 put 20 kids on a roster that's 140 girls on the National teams. I don't know how many girls play soccer in USA total, but let's divide that by a million kids that makes your odds at .ooo14% chance of making the National team. If you can tell me the DA isn't selling a pipe dream and not a cash grab then maybe I'm missing something.

Club/High School - of course more colleges see players through club because they also play in fall. They can scout and go watch players easily in spring time. I bet it is easy to go watch CUP gold and say those kids are great sign them they are the best club in the state year after year!
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  #22  
Old 07-07-17, 08:22 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Originally Posted by Ihatekickball View Post
My daughter used to attend and play for Mason. We would have maybe 100 people in the stands (mostly parents). A small handful of them would be students. But we have played away games at some schools where they may have 10 to 20 people in the stands. I think that is more the norm than what Mason would typically draw. We aren't talking about football where the whole town and student body shows up to every home game.

And coaching is all over the map in highschool. There are exceptions, but the vast majority of them have no idea what they are doing. IMO most kids played highschool soccer because there simply weren't other options.
Obviously you did not attend dollar taco night or stuff the stands....

Yes football draws much more fans, but the environment can be great for HS soccer. I am not dissing club or the DA....something good for everyone.
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  #23  
Old 07-07-17, 09:59 AM
Philly_Cat Philly_Cat is online now
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Originally Posted by Sports_Fan_ View Post
Not sure what a "ty" club is but being a good "trainer" doesn't qualify you as a good "coach". I know tons of certified trainers that are terrible coaches! A piece of paper does not deem you a great coach!

DA - I just looked it up and I could be wrong. It looked like we have 7 National teams which I am assuming leaves our USA team as separate. These ages are 15-23 put 20 kids on a roster that's 140 girls on the National teams. I don't know how many girls play soccer in USA total, but let's divide that by a million kids that makes your odds at .ooo14% chance of making the National team. If you can tell me the DA isn't selling a pipe dream and not a cash grab then maybe I'm missing something.

Club/High School - of course more colleges see players through club because they also play in fall. They can scout and go watch players easily in spring time. I bet it is easy to go watch CUP gold and say those kids are great sign them they are the best club in the state year after year!
What about DA clubs that charge the same for their new DA program, or less, as they did for their top program prior? What about fully funded DA clubs, where it is free to play? Are those cash grabs?
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  #24  
Old 07-07-17, 11:17 AM
Vinegar Vinegar is offline
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For the majority, all of Select Soccer is a cash grab! "How could my daughter have gotten cut, she's played select since she was three!" Yeah....in Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland, Dayton etc...THEY ALL PLAY SELECT!

It's a pipe dream for most at every level. How many full-rides in soccer? Not many! Play for your school! Be part of something bigger than you! AND, play Club/Select if you want to, OUTSIDE OF YOUR SCHOOL SEASON.

Amazing that all of the research that is out there about multiple sport participation being best for kids...and the Clubs are all selling specialization.
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  #25  
Old 07-07-17, 11:52 AM
Ihatekickball Ihatekickball is offline
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Originally Posted by Vinegar View Post
For the majority, all of Select Soccer is a cash grab! "How could my daughter have gotten cut, she's played select since she was three!" Yeah....in Cincinnati, Columbus, Cleveland, Dayton etc...THEY ALL PLAY SELECT!

It's a pipe dream for most at every level. How many full-rides in soccer? Not many! Play for your school! Be part of something bigger than you! AND, play Club/Select if you want to, OUTSIDE OF YOUR SCHOOL SEASON.

Amazing that all of the research that is out there about multiple sport participation being best for kids...and the Clubs are all selling specialization.

Lets be honest. Club soccer is a business. In the business there are many individual coaches/trainers who do care about the players. But the best way to lower costs are to have competition in the marketplace. As a parent I would welcome the DA.

Each player and parent need to look at their opportunities realistically. If your kid is good enough to get money for college then you have to make decisions to help to get to that goal. If not, maybe the pinnacle for the player is highschool. And there is nothing wrong with either of those. But like I said above, it best to have options to make the best decision for yourself. May not end up being the right decision but it at least is a decision you can own.
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  #26  
Old 07-07-17, 12:09 PM
Sports_Fan_ Sports_Fan_ is offline
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Originally Posted by Philly_Cat View Post
What about DA clubs that charge the same for their new DA program, or less, as they did for their top program prior? What about fully funded DA clubs, where it is free to play? Are those cash grabs?
According to the US Soccer website its $50 dollars (cheap), but that's only U13-U18 AND says U12 does have fees but doesn't say cost. It also stats clubs are responsible for "travel and administrative expenses". So to me that's not "free" by any means. Also by looking at states involved you will traveling a far distance to play. They play 30 games seasons as well in a 10 month season. Again, far from "free" travel expense alone will be a nice price tag, but to each their own! IMO it won't hurt High School as much as they would like to think. Far too many multi-sport athletes that won't play and they will never have al the best players just not possible.
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  #27  
Old 07-07-17, 12:14 PM
coachg coachg is offline
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Originally Posted by fearthekeeper View Post
No community has ever rallied around high school soccer and kids don't play for community pride. Football (and maybe basketball) is the only high school sport that an entire community might get behind. High school soccer players are playing in front of their parents and maybe grandparents and possibly a few friends. I would argue they have more pride playing for their club.
Not true at all. I have played HS in this area, coached HS in this area and had kids play HS in this area.
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  #28  
Old 07-07-17, 01:19 PM
Ihatekickball Ihatekickball is offline
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Not true at all. I have played HS in this area, coached HS in this area and had kids play HS in this area.
I have to disagree with you coach. With exception to a few schools that pull a nice crowd. Most of these games just don't draw the fans. Like I said before Ive been to games where our away crowd outnumbers the hometown crowd. Obviously there are always the rival games that tend to be big draws. I'd love to see the attendance numbers of the middle of the pack to lower ranking teams last year.
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  #29  
Old 07-07-17, 02:08 PM
buckshooter5 buckshooter5 is offline
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Vinegar is calling it like it is. The landscape is littered with kids that parents put in the skillet, just to watch them burn up during their Freshman year of College. OH BOY!! She got a scholly! Stop hurting your kids. HS will be something they can have fun with. LET THEM PLAY!
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  #30  
Old 07-07-17, 02:33 PM
coachg coachg is offline
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Originally Posted by Ihatekickball View Post
I have to disagree with you coach. With exception to a few schools that pull a nice crowd. Most of these games just don't draw the fans. Like I said before Ive been to games where our away crowd outnumbers the hometown crowd. Obviously there are always the rival games that tend to be big draws. I'd love to see the attendance numbers of the middle of the pack to lower ranking teams last year.
So you agree with what I am saying that playing for your community is a good thing. Its the rival games that are the most fun and are what I am talking about. Harrison VS Kings matches no one cares about but Mariemont Vs. Maderia, Lakota East Vs. West, Indian Hill Vs Summit the list goes on and on. These are the matches most kids will remember.

Last edited by coachg; 07-07-17 at 02:58 PM..
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