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  #1  
Old 02-18-18, 06:53 PM
OhioHSBasketballFan OhioHSBasketballFan is offline
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New Transfer Rule - Garfield and Lutheran East

Privates have always been accused of recruiting but it seems like it continues to escalate.

Lutheran East recruited 5 players last year and won a state championship. I think they brought in 6 or 7 this past year.
Garfield Hts. Ė looking at their top 6, who did they develop? Meech. Is that it? Brison, Zo, Graves, Heath I know are all transfers.

It has some merit that players/families should be allowed to go to school where they want. However, the recent madness (see above) has created such an uneven playing field that I believe this will pass. I think a private like VASJ/Eds will vote for it because they see what is happening (high school transfers) and to some degree they believe it is ruining high school basketball.

The flip side is that VASJ/Eds recruits a large number of 8th graders for their 9th grade class. So it is a little hypocritical for them to look down their noses at Sonny who is the ultimate recruiter.
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Old 02-18-18, 07:19 PM
tom 48 tom 48 is offline
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Is there not a difference between admitting 8th graders to a freshman class and forming AAU teams from those who are "recruited" from other high schools?
If it does pass, it will from the votes of public school principals, who comprise the vast majority of the electorate.
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  #3  
Old 02-18-18, 08:02 PM
Curious One Curious One is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom 48 View Post
Is there not a difference between admitting 8th graders to a freshman class and forming AAU teams from those who are "recruited" from other high schools?
If it does pass, it will from the votes of public school principals, who comprise the vast majority of the electorate.
I believe it will pass rather easily from the votes of the vast majority of schools who are harmed rather than helped under the current set up. There are a small number of schools, including the two you mentioned, who benefit from transfers; the others are hurt, either by losing players or by having to compete against these AAU teams. I would question why any school would vote against it!
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Old 02-18-18, 10:17 PM
Dee Lou Chanel Dee Lou Chanel is offline
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Any of these coaches running an AAU program(is there a bigger money grab than AAU?)or even coaching an AAU team have an inside track to these kids. The climate of High School basketball has changed. Why not put together a superteam with my buddies? It's a fact that some of these stud freshmen's parents are getting texts and calls for their kid to jump ship to a "better" program almost after every game. It's even worse when they say "KD and Lebron did it". It's only going to get worse. But like the gentlemen said above, these kids can go wherever they want.
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Old 02-18-18, 10:26 PM
SeeYaSometime SeeYaSometime is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Lou Chanel View Post
Any of these coaches running an AAU program(is there a bigger money grab than AAU?)or even coaching an AAU team have an inside track to these kids. The climate of High School basketball has changed. Why not put together a superteam with my buddies? It's a fact that some of these stud freshmen's parents are getting texts and calls for their kid to jump ship to a "better" program almost after every game. It's even worse when they say "KD and Lebron did it". It's only going to get worse. But like the gentlemen said above, these kids can go wherever they want.

KD and LeBron did what?
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  #6  
Old 02-18-18, 10:46 PM
Look Ma No Hands Look Ma No Hands is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Lou Chanel View Post
Any of these coaches running an AAU program(is there a bigger money grab than AAU?)or even coaching an AAU team have an inside track to these kids. The climate of High School basketball has changed. Why not put together a superteam with my buddies? It's a fact that some of these stud freshmen's parents are getting texts and calls for their kid to jump ship to a "better" program almost after every game. It's even worse when they say "KD and Lebron did it". It's only going to get worse. But like the gentlemen said above, these kids can go wherever they want.
IMO, if a HS coach is affiliated with an AAU program, he should be forbidden from accepting any player from the program. We'll see how many HS coaches who coach AAU "for the love of the game" would continue to coach AAU.

If he wants to do it to help kids... Amen. But you just can't accept any in your high school program.
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  #7  
Old 02-18-18, 11:07 PM
Eagle22 Eagle22 is offline
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The only reason it might not (and I think should not) pass is that it is bizarre to have a player have to quit a team halfway through the season. I would recommend letting them play regular season, but not be eligible to the tournament. It would be a huge roadblock for high end kids and for programs not in it for the kids. It wouldn’t overly punish the kids who have really bad circumstances that need to escape from.

I would keep it as is, but would make seniors ineligible for transfer unless they meet the exceptions to be immediately eligible (parent moving). I think that small change would clean up a lot of this mess. I also would limit the transfers to 1 time. I don’t blame kids who love a sport to transfer to a situation they can play and don’t feel like those kids should be overly punished....most high end kids won’t sit half a season.
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  #8  
Old 02-18-18, 11:23 PM
svilleresident92 svilleresident92 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioHSBasketballFan View Post
Privates have always been accused of recruiting but it seems like it continues to escalate.

Lutheran East recruited 5 players last year and won a state championship. I think they brought in 6 or 7 this past year.
Garfield Hts. Ė looking at their top 6, who did they develop? Meech. Is that it? Brison, Zo, Graves, Heath I know are all transfers.

It has some merit that players/families should be allowed to go to school where they want. However, the recent madness (see above) has created such an uneven playing field that I believe this will pass. I think a private like VASJ/Eds will vote for it because they see what is happening (high school transfers) and to some degree they believe it is ruining high school basketball.

The flip side is that VASJ/Eds recruits a large number of 8th graders for their 9th grade class. So it is a little hypocritical for them to look down their noses at Sonny who is the ultimate recruiter.

Damn, more Sonny Johnson haters again.

Last time I checked this was America, the land of freedom and opportunity. Let a kid move wherever he wants if that gives him a shot at free college. If the other school AD's don't like the way whatever school gets their players, they can take it upon themselves to exclude those programs from their schedules. (AD's doing their own part to make basketball great again?)
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  #9  
Old 02-19-18, 04:44 AM
Gators34 Gators34 is offline
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Originally Posted by svilleresident92 View Post
Damn, more Sonny Johnson haters again.

Last time I checked this was America, the land of freedom and opportunity. Let a kid move wherever he wants if that gives him a shot at free college. If the other school AD's don't like the way whatever school gets their players, they can take it upon themselves to exclude those programs from their schedules. (AD's doing their own part to make basketball great again?)
If a coach is such a great coach (sonny Johnson) develop your own kids quit stealing everyone elses as well as kids get seen on aau circuit for college anyways not school hes just trying to blow up his own self with recruiting
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  #10  
Old 02-19-18, 08:10 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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The poster above by calling Sonny Johnson the ultimate recruiter is at the same time calling him a cheater. Garfield Heights is a PUBLIC school and does not have open enrollment. He is using his NE Ohio Basketball and AAU programs to steal players away from other programs. Sonny is not responsible for getting Alonzo Gaffney all the offers he has. He was developed at VASJ and was showcased for two years in Columbus in the state finals. He also had very successful AAU seasons that got him a lot of exposure. He held all those D1 offers before he had one practice at Garfield.

Sonny is not a good coach when it comes to Xs and Os. If you look at the big private programs in the Cleveland area Iggy, Ed's, Joe's, Benny they usually don't take in recruits. Taking in recruits can and usually are disruptive. Garfield is seeing that now. The private schools have open houses where 7th and 8th graders can tour the school and select the school that fits them the best. Many of these kids come from Catholic junior high schools but there are also kids from public junior highs that inquire as well. People also forget that when you have the success the mentioned schools have had in multiple sports the programs recruit themselves.

I think if your the head coach of a varsity program you should not be permitted to be associated with AAU or any programs with high school aged players. I happen to love the new rule and I think it will deter players from transferring for the sole reason to play sports. The truth is that Sonny is breaking the rules and there should be ramifications. If Sonny is such a good coach why is this all star team struggling so bad ? They just had a 4 point win against a mediocre Elyria Catholic team. When you bring in transfers what happens to the kids who have been in your program since 9th grade ? The rosters do not get larger because of transfers - so these kids get pushed to JV or get cut. There is a ripple effect. That is the #1 reason the top privates don't advocate taking in or pursuing transfers after 9th grade. They roll with the kids who have committed to them as freshman. Lutheran East and Cornerstone are a different situation because of their low enrollment. They have the roster spots open and lack depth - the larger schools don't have that issue. VASJ lost 7 kids to transfers and still have put 3 solid teams on the floor - that is a testament to the coaching and the talent present at Joe's. The bottom line is if you don't have open enrollment and you are recruiting you are cheating. I love the fact that the OHSAA is finally doing something to halt this damaging practice. If you like a school so much and you want to transfer you can - you just can't play the last 11 games or the post season.
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  #11  
Old 02-20-18, 12:29 AM
Eagle22 Eagle22 is offline
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Keep the rule as is, but eliminate senior transfers unless parent move or whatever exceptions work now. I think it would help a lot. I do think the current rule works for the vast, vast majority of transfers. It is a major hurdle that most families won’t choose. The exceptions seem to be kids that can’t play at bigger schools and realize they could play if the move to a smaller school. I haven’t really noticed any all star type kids pulling this move around Toledo.
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Old 02-20-18, 04:58 AM
Gators34 Gators34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle22 View Post
Keep the rule as is, but eliminate senior transfers unless parent move or whatever exceptions work now. I think it would help a lot. I do think the current rule works for the vast, vast majority of transfers. It is a major hurdle that most families wonít choose. The exceptions seem to be kids that canít play at bigger schools and realize they could play if the move to a smaller school. I havenít really noticed any all star type kids pulling this move around Toledo.
Its happening in Cincinnati a lot but state not doing anything about it just looking the other way and at a couple small schools with no open enrollment
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  #13  
Old 02-20-18, 09:48 AM
tribefan23 tribefan23 is offline
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Originally Posted by Look Ma No Hands View Post
IMO, if a HS coach is affiliated with an AAU program, he should be forbidden from accepting any player from the program. We'll see how many HS coaches who coach AAU "for the love of the game" would continue to coach AAU.

If he wants to do it to help kids... Amen. But you just can't accept any in your high school program.
If they forbid HS coaches from coaching AAU, they would run away from HS and only do AAU. There is no money to be made coaching HS basketball, but a ton of money to be made running camps and coaching AAU. Not even a tough decision
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Old 02-20-18, 10:12 AM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Then let them coach AAU only. It's not right that these coaches have access to other teams players in the off season and use that time in many cases to recruit them. If you run AAU programs or youth camp programs you should not be allowed to coach high school. I can see having a basketball camp as a fund rasier - many schools do that. I just wish the OHSAA had the resources to investigate these transfers to make sure they are legit.

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  #15  
Old 02-20-18, 10:12 AM
FlannMann87 FlannMann87 is offline
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Apples and Oranges. To say the private schools only recruit 8th graders so that's ok is silly. The fact is all the successful schools cheat. How much tuition did Gaffney pay his two years at VASJ? I don't know much about VASJ this year but I'd imagine Gaffney is not the only kid 6'6+ in the program. Does VASJ have a discount per inch? Paying tuition of basketball players is also cheating. Garfield has to recruit to level the playing field. Saying 7 players transferred proves those kids were there for basketball only. What Garfield is doing is in response to what the private schools have always done. If they could pay tuition for 8th graders they would. If VASJ, Ed's, Ignatius, and Bennies had to take transfers to compete they would. All the mentioned programs have nice teams and coaches, but none of it is 100% clean.
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Old 02-20-18, 10:20 AM
grifferforlife grifferforlife is offline
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Look no further than SVSM

Over the years, many kids have come to SVSM who all played for King James or the Shooting Stars AAU. Not sure why the state would even let anyone run an AAU program and then let them coach high school basketball.
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Old 02-20-18, 12:35 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Just for your information ALL VASJ students pay tuition. There are different amounts based on test scores, financial aid and scholarships - but NOBODY goes to school free of charge, even the basketball players.
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Old 02-20-18, 02:17 PM
Dee Lou Chanel Dee Lou Chanel is offline
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Originally Posted by grifferforlife View Post
Over the years, many kids have come to SVSM who all played for King James or the Shooting Stars AAU. Not sure why the state would even let anyone run an AAU program and then let them coach high school basketball.
Agreed. The showcases, skills sessions and AAU teams run by coaches and through their schools are a huge advantage. Shooting Stars, Hardwork, Murphy AC etc. all expose the kids to the schools and coaches. And the coaches get to see every 3rd grader to 8th grader in the area.
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Old 02-20-18, 04:00 PM
FlannMann87 FlannMann87 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Just for your information ALL VASJ students pay tuition. There are different amounts based on test scores, financial aid and scholarships - but NOBODY goes to school free of charge, even the basketball players.
Who pays the tuition? A sponsor. Glad to hear the 6'7 kids all test well. So if Gaffney did not play basketball he would get the same about of aid? Can I interest you in some swamp land?
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Old 02-20-18, 05:06 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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FLANNMANN- you are pretty uneducated as to how it works. You honestly think kids go to school for free and somebody pays their tuition ? When you have a tradition rich program known for sending kids to major colleges and that gets the exposure Joe's does - the program recruits itself. Say you have a 6'6 8th grader or a talented 8th grade player and he lives in East Cleveland or Wickliffe for example - where would you send him. Some of these kids get state money through vouchers and that drastically reduces the tuition. The parents can also apply for aid to the diocese. That is the same with all students - not just athletes. There is this misconception that all the talented players go to school for free. I know my family paid whatever the balance was after my sons acedemic scholarship - no funny business.

What do you think the fallout would be if families found out that some were paying and some were not ? There are 45 players in a program and we all know each other and many talk. Have you ever thought of that. In fact a few years ago a family left the school and transferred and one reason was they did not feel they should have to pay - because their kids were good athletes. The train of thought you have is part of the problem privates have with public schools. I cannot speak for all the schools - only the one I'm familiar with. With the size of VASJ do you honestly think they can afford to just hand out free tuition to every good athlete that walks in the door. You should think about what you say and do some research before you just post lies.

Last edited by Bball216; 02-21-18 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 02-21-18, 08:55 AM
Cardboard Palace Cardboard Palace is offline
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Originally Posted by Eagle22 View Post
Keep the rule as is, but eliminate senior transfers unless parent move or whatever exceptions work now. I think it would help a lot. I do think the current rule works for the vast, vast majority of transfers. It is a major hurdle that most families won’t choose. The exceptions seem to be kids that can’t play at bigger schools and realize they could play if the move to a smaller school. I haven’t really noticed any all star type kids pulling this move around Toledo.
What? Players transferring includes a who's who of top players in the Toledo area leagues;

Rayford transferred to Whitmer after sitting (1st team all TRAC last year)

Tripplet transferred to Central after sitting (2nd team all TRAC last year)

Harris not positive but think he transferred to St. Francis his soph year (2nd team all TRAC last year)

Brown wasn't he at St Johns as a freshman? Transferred to Bowsher, city league player of the year starting for Miami, Ohio.

Banks "was" the top player in the city league this year. Transferred to Waite from Scott

Wagonhauser Transferred from St. Johns to Southview. Should be 1st team all NLL this year

Lima Sr (Everyone) - Simpson (Mr. Basketball/TRAC Player of the year), Wilson (1st Team all TRAC), Pughsley (2nd team all TRAC), Ward (Co-TRAC player of the year), Quinones (Puerto Rican National Team), Colon

Jackson transferred from Central to MVCDS as a freshman. Has multiple D1 offers.

Pretty sure Rogers has 2 transfers that are impact players who sat out the 1st half of this year.

McKinstry talented soph, transferred from Fremont to St. Johns.

Christie transferred from Central to St. Johns, think he is committed to a D2 school.

I would also add that the separation in talent between big and small Northwest Ohio/Toledo area teams, not named St. Johns, is minor. See Toledo Christian beating Anthony Wayne, Maumee Valley beating Bowsher, Rossford beating Rogers, Ottawa Glandorf beating Lima Sr, Findlay, Perrysburg and BG etc. May be a stretch including OG, but they are NWO and are playing TRAC/NLL teams.

Last edited by Cardboard Palace; 02-21-18 at 09:25 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  #22  
Old 02-21-18, 09:03 AM
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New Transfer Rule - Garfield and Lutheran East

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
Then let them coach AAU only. It's not right that these coaches have access to other teams players in the off season and use that time in many cases to recruit them. If you run AAU programs or youth camp programs you should not be allowed to coach high school. I can see having a basketball camp as a fund rasier - many schools do that. I just wish the OHSAA had the resources to investigate these transfers to make sure they are legit.

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According to private school guys when they get players from public feeder systems , they aren't your players. You don't own any players. So Garfield is fine doing what they do. A lot of private school guys get mad at publics that recruit. You guys do it all the time so it rings hollow


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Old 02-21-18, 10:32 AM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Who pays the tuition? A sponsor. Glad to hear the 6'7 kids all test well. So if Gaffney did not play basketball he would get the same about of aid? Can I interest you in some swamp land?
Gaffney was a Cleveland resident and went to St Jerome's elementary school, 2 miles down Lakeshore Blvd. As a Cleveland resident, he qualified for the Cleveland Voucher program, which pays $5700 per year of the tuition whether you are 6'7" or not. The balance of the tuition would come from financial aid (amount determined based off financial need application -that every family submits) or the parents making up the difference.
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Old 02-21-18, 11:01 AM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
Gaffney was a Cleveland resident and went to St Jerome's elementary school, 2 miles down Lakeshore Blvd. As a Cleveland resident, he qualified for the Cleveland Voucher program, which pays $5700 per year of the tuition whether you are 6'7" or not. The balance of the tuition would come from financial aid (amount determined based off financial need application -that every family submits) or the parents making up the difference.
Now you know that no anti-Catholic school poster on this board can accept the fact that a talented, African-American athlete may have parents that chose a Catholic elementary school for him at a young age. If a Catholic school has a talented, black athlete, he was bought and paid for only after he was discovered to be a talented athlete . . . that is what they want to believe and what they will continue to believe. They say that about white kids but when it is black kids (especially in the smaller divisions) the grumbling gets really loud.
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Old 02-21-18, 11:52 AM
FlannMann87 FlannMann87 is offline
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I am catholic. I also have common sense and am not naive. I'm not looking to attack VASJ, I went to St Ed's and we do the same thing. (along with Ignatius and Benedictine) Yes, there are programs to help kids attend private schools. Kids benefit greatly from being able to attend those schools. However, I'm not a fool. How many of these kids would be at Ed's or VASJ if not for athletics? I know exactly how it works. I have been involved with AAU for years. Please 216, tell me about the conversations you had with Carlton Bragg's parents about tuition. That kid was better off for going to VASJ. However, would he had been accepted if not for basketball? To me it's given kids a better shot at success so I understand that it's a good thing. You guys can pretend it's the 80's and kids are dreaming of going to your school since 1st grade. Here's my understanding. Now a days 8th graders are announcing their decisions on where they will attend high school on social media. Private schools are fighting to get kids and remain competitive in that sport. Full tuition or not, any type of financial help based on athletics is cheating. The winning programs all do it. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it is wrong to act like it doesn't go on. It's a HUGE advantage. I am not a Garfield fan, and I don't think Sonny is the best coach. But it's funny for any private school who can win year in and year out complaining about recruiting.
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Old 02-21-18, 12:01 PM
FlannMann87 FlannMann87 is offline
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Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
Gaffney was a Cleveland resident and went to St Jerome's elementary school, 2 miles down Lakeshore Blvd. As a Cleveland resident, he qualified for the Cleveland Voucher program, which pays $5700 per year of the tuition whether you are 6'7" or not. The balance of the tuition would come from financial aid (amount determined based off financial need application -that every family submits) or the parents making up the difference.

No mention of the kids from Chardon, Hudson or Nodonia. That's a big area to pull from. There are plenty of good things about VASJ, but you guys have a HUGE advantage and never mention those advantages. I know I'm uneducated about how it works, but I was told one of the guys sitting on the end of the bench is the freshman from Nordonia's (stud) father. Weird for a school who doesn't make concessions for athletes.
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Old 02-21-18, 12:37 PM
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Here I thought cincy was the only one thats bad this year. Deer Park which is a small community inside cincinnati had 8 kids move into the small closed enrollment district using either the exception of being homeless so the school has to accept them and they can live with about anyone. Or the moved into the district. One kid moved to Deer Park from the Oak Hill academy. Yes that Oak hIll academy. The problem with the new rule if it passes is it only really affects private and open enrollment schools. If you are a closed district school all you have to do is show a address in that district and there is your exception. In private or open enrollment a new address is much harder to use unless you move a lot closer to the school
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Old 02-21-18, 02:58 PM
UKnowIt UKnowIt is offline
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You can add Cornerstone to the list of these schools as well. A couple kids from Elyria, two from Shaker. I am sure they just all go for the private education. You can just look at CCA competitive balance number.

Base Enrollment of a 42
After Competitive Balance they have an enrollment number of 86

fishy if you ask me, you double the size of your school and somehow they are doing things by the books.....

I do agree with you though Lutheran East did the same thing last year, 5 new starters and they win a state championship. If the OHSAA is going to allow you to cheat and bring in recruits then why not just keep doing it.
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Old 02-21-18, 10:17 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Originally Posted by FlannMann87 View Post
I am catholic. I also have common sense and am not naive. I'm not looking to attack VASJ, I went to St Ed's and we do the same thing. (along with Ignatius and Benedictine) Yes, there are programs to help kids attend private schools. Kids benefit greatly from being able to attend those schools. However, I'm not a fool. How many of these kids would be at Ed's or VASJ if not for athletics? I know exactly how it works. I have been involved with AAU for years. Please 216, tell me about the conversations you had with Carlton Bragg's parents about tuition. That kid was better off for going to VASJ. However, would he had been accepted if not for basketball? To me it's given kids a better shot at success so I understand that it's a good thing. You guys can pretend it's the 80's and kids are dreaming of going to your school since 1st grade. Here's my understanding. Now a days 8th graders are announcing their decisions on where they will attend high school on social media. Private schools are fighting to get kids and remain competitive in that sport. Full tuition or not, any type of financial help based on athletics is cheating. The winning programs all do it. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it is wrong to act like it doesn't go on. It's a HUGE advantage. I am not a Garfield fan, and I don't think Sonny is the best coach. But it's funny for any private school who can win year in and year out complaining about recruiting.
VASJ does not make concessions for anyone. VASJ does not give athletic scholarships. Some of the names you are mentioning are dirt poor and would qualify for Cleveland Voucher and if necessary for school aid just like the 40 some percent of the kids that get free and reduced lunches. On the flip side, there are many kids in the school whose parents make 6 figures and a couple that make 7 figures.

VASJ has one of the tightest admission standards of any school on the east side. If I had to rank admissions standards of schools near us it would be Iggy, NDCL, and then VASJ. Believe me, there have been several athletes in basketball and football that I wanted to see wearing the Red and Blue that were incredible athletes that did not get in and ended up at Euclid, other publics, and other Catholics.

In the case of Bragg, for student confidentiality reasons, I don't know what his incoming scores were but he worked his tail off and was on 1st and 2nd honors by his senior year. Our All Ohio point guard has a 4.3gpa and is going into medicine and our basketball team overall has a 3.3gpa.

The bottom line with any school that has a great education combined with a successful program, whether it is Iggy, Eds, Kirtland, or Glenville for football or Eds, SVSM, Mentor, or VASJ for basketball, the kids and families come to you.
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Old 02-21-18, 10:27 PM
Curious One Curious One is offline
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It will pass because there are way more schools harmed than helped! My question is this: If a senior comes to your program do you keep him or cut him? Do you play underclassmen varsity or JV knowing they can’t help them team when it matters most?
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