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  #61  
Old 10-21-17, 05:46 PM
getagrip getagrip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilsco View Post
.....

SCD also rosters a Varsity (24), JV A and JV B team. Conservative estimate would be between 40 and 50 kids rostered. Don't believe a lot of those kids went to 7th and 8th grade at Summit so most would have a CB factor of either 1 or 6
Question:
So the competitive balance number is based on all players rostered to all teams, Varsity, JVA, JVB ? Total?
Summit used to be no cut for sports ( not sure about now) and found however many coaches they needed to coach whoever signed up. So you are saying all these kids would count toward their number? If different schools have different numbers of teams and players, wouldn't that be like comparing apples and oranges? Any other D3 have 3 teams? Curious.
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  #62  
Old 10-21-17, 06:39 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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My understanding is all levels would count.

Not many d3 teams have 3 teams. Some have varsity and JV. Most probably have enough for just 1 team (when you consider all the teams in d3).
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  #63  
Old 10-23-17, 08:20 AM
Nelym Nelym is offline
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The problem with the Competitive Balance B.S. is that it affects the Summit Football team more so than the soccer team. So the soccer team gets moved to D2 so what? They'll still compete, even though the next couple of years Summit will be back to being just a good D3 team. IMO there is little difference in quality between D3 and D2 anyway.

Summit football has 20-30 players and many of them play both offense and defense. Now they will have to compete with teams that have 50-60 players that mostly play just one way. Just doesn't make sense.
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  #64  
Old 11-05-17, 10:35 AM
Pitchperfect Pitchperfect is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelym View Post
The problem with the Competitive Balance B.S. is that it affects the Summit Football team more so than the soccer team. So the soccer team gets moved to D2 so what? They'll still compete, even though the next couple of years Summit will be back to being just a good D3 team. IMO there is little difference in quality between D3 and D2 anyway.



Summit football has 20-30 players and many of them play both offense and defense. Now they will have to compete with teams that have 50-60 players that mostly play just one way. Just doesn't make sense.


Football is calculated completely different than soccer. I think all the DIII that can barely field a varsity or if they are lucky a JV would say the same thing about us. Bring on the competition


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  #65  
Old 11-05-17, 05:50 PM
TCSoup TCSoup is offline
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Competitive Balance figures have nothing to do at all with how many players
are on your Roster . Nothing.
You can have 4 Soccer Teams rostered doesn't affect what Division you are in.
Spent some time on the other Yappi Football board someone over there will gladly educate you on how Boys / Girls enrollment figures determine your Division.
Only real difference is in Soccer and many other Sports the cut off's are set for 3 Divisions not the 7 they have for Football.
Same formula is used .
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  #66  
Old 11-05-17, 06:36 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCSoup View Post
Competitive Balance figures have nothing to do at all with how many players
are on your Roster . Nothing.
You can have 4 Soccer Teams rostered doesn't affect what Division you are in.
Spent some time on the other Yappi Football board someone over there will gladly educate you on how Boys / Girls enrollment figures determine your Division.
Only real difference is in Soccer and many other Sports the cut off's are set for 3 Divisions not the 7 they have for Football.
Same formula is used .
If you have 4 teams you have maybe 50-60 kids playing soccer. If a good amount of these kids are tier 2 then they get hit with the multiplier of 6 for soccer. So it's half the team that qualifies for that tier 2.....that is a pretty big competitive balance number that gets added to your base enrollment.

If you only have 1 team 20 kids might be playing soccer. If they also half of their kids as tier 2 the basic math will give this team a smaller competitive balance number that is added to their base enrollment.

So yes, how many teams or players you have rostered could impact the division you are in because divisions are set on the competitive balance figure added to you enrollment. Just go look at the list of teams in each division. Ohsaa tells you if they moved up or down and why. Here is the link to boys d3.

http://ohsaa.org/Sports-Tournaments/...ion-III-School
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  #67  
Old 11-05-17, 08:01 PM
TCSoup TCSoup is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
If you have 4 teams you have maybe 50-60 kids playing soccer. If a good amount of these kids are tier 2 then they get hit with the multiplier of 6 for soccer. So it's half the team that qualifies for that tier 2.....that is a pretty big competitive balance number that gets added to your base enrollment.

If you only have 1 team 20 kids might be playing soccer. If they also half of their kids as tier 2 the basic math will give this team a smaller competitive balance number that is added to their base enrollment.

So yes, how many teams or players you have rostered could impact the division you are in because divisions are set on the competitive balance figure added to you enrollment. Just go look at the list of teams in each division. Ohsaa tells you if they moved up or down and why. Here is the link to boys d3.

http://ohsaa.org/Sports-Tournaments/...ion-III-School
No it doesn't ..... Not in all cases
If your a Tier 0 student there is no multiplier penalty. So if your roster is all Tier 0 players no additions
Public Schools :
If a player has 1 parent living in the District Tier 0
If no " has student maintained continuous enrollment in your school district since 7th grade ( Likely via open enrollment )
If yes Tier 1 x6
If no Tier 2 x6
Soccer across the board has a multiplier of 6 for Tier 1 and 2 students .
Private Schools the enactment of Multiplier is set up a little different but Multipliers are more difficult in requirements to stay Tier 0 across the board.
Same x6 multiplier.
Look at the Multiplier numbers you will notice Private Schools and Open enrollment School Districts have the majority of numbers added to their EMIS.
The EMIS is what you start with as enrollment which is all Boys / Girls who are enrolled in Grades 9-11.
If your entire roster 1 team or 6 teams is all Tier 0 students you would have a Zero multiplier affect. 0 x 6 is Zero
Look at Orrville they have 199 Boys in school and Zero CB figures , they could have 10 teams of 19 players for Soccer and they would stay D3 with an enrollment of 199 barley but they squeaked by this year.
Summitt Day with 198 because of Multiplier also squeaked by. In either case one additional Tier 1 kid in school pushes both over 200+ kids and i'm assuming up to D2.

Last edited by TCSoup; 11-05-17 at 08:37 PM..
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  #68  
Old 11-05-17, 10:17 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCSoup View Post
No it doesn't ..... Not in all cases
If your a Tier 0 student there is no multiplier penalty. So if your roster is all Tier 0 players no additions
Public Schools :
If a player has 1 parent living in the District Tier 0
If no " has student maintained continuous enrollment in your school district since 7th grade ( Likely via open enrollment )
If yes Tier 1 x6
If no Tier 2 x6
Soccer across the board has a multiplier of 6 for Tier 1 and 2 students .
Private Schools the enactment of Multiplier is set up a little different but Multipliers are more difficult in requirements to stay Tier 0 across the board.
Same x6 multiplier.
Look at the Multiplier numbers you will notice Private Schools and Open enrollment School Districts have the majority of numbers added to their EMIS.
The EMIS is what you start with as enrollment which is all Boys / Girls who are enrolled in Grades 9-11.
If your entire roster 1 team or 6 teams is all Tier 0 students you would have a Zero multiplier affect. 0 x 6 is Zero
Look at Orrville they have 199 Boys in school and Zero CB figures , they could have 10 teams of 19 players for Soccer and they would stay D3 with an enrollment of 199 barley but they squeaked by this year.
Summitt Day with 198 because of Multiplier also squeaked by. In either case one additional Tier 1 kid in school pushes both over 200+ kids and i'm assuming up to D2.
Please visit this link and learn.

http://www.ohsaa.org/School-Resource...lance-Resource

And no, soccer does NOT across the board have a multiplier of 6 for both tier 1 and tier 2. If that was the case how do you explain schools that have competitive balance numbers of 3 or 13 or 41? Where did you get that?

My point remains. If you have 50 kids playing soccer and 50% of the team are tier 2 you will have a higher competitive balance number than another school that only has 20 kids playing with 50% that are tier 2. Its just basic math.

And no duh.....if your entire team(s) are all tier 0 then of course your competitive balance number is zero. Not even sure why you brought that up.
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  #69  
Old 11-06-17, 01:09 PM
IcyCoolDevil IcyCoolDevil is offline
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winbypin,
Your math is math, but you throw in some fairly large IF's. Bottom line is regardless of number of teams, SCD has a CB number of 44, so as many as 7 of their players from last year's team are tier 2 with 2 being tier 1.
Compare that to their potential State Final opponent Kidron Central who has a CB number of 57, meaning as many as 9 of their players were tier 2, which would probably really be 50% of their players given they have less than 55 boys to choose from. If Kidron wins this division it will throw a big monkey wrench into the arguments for privates having their own division, given all of those superstars they must be drawing from Wooster. Haha.
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  #70  
Old 11-06-17, 01:41 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcyCoolDevil View Post
winbypin,
Your math is math, but you throw in some fairly large IF's. Bottom line is regardless of number of teams, SCD has a CB number of 44, so as many as 7 of their players from last year's team are tier 2 with 2 being tier 1.
Compare that to their potential State Final opponent Kidron Central who has a CB number of 57, meaning as many as 9 of their players were tier 2, which would probably really be 50% of their players given they have less than 55 boys to choose from. If Kidron wins this division it will throw a big monkey wrench into the arguments for privates having their own division, given all of those superstars they must be drawing from Wooster. Haha.
The "ifs" are just for the sake of the discussion. I am not saying scd did anything wrong. TCSoup is incorrect and just trying to explain why the number of teams could impact what division you are in because the more players you have the more chances you have for your competitive balance number to go up. He made a blanket statement that it had no effect what so ever. Which is wrong.
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  #71  
Old 11-06-17, 03:03 PM
IcyCoolDevil IcyCoolDevil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
The "ifs" are just for the sake of the discussion. I am not saying scd did anything wrong. TCSoup is incorrect and just trying to explain why the number of teams could impact what division you are in because the more players you have the more chances you have for your competitive balance number to go up. He made a blanket statement that it had no effect what so ever. Which is wrong.
What you are talking about is what we used to call in statistics as Probability versus Possibility. While it is possible for a private school to have no additional numbers for competitive balance, it is probable that there is a number that represents the most frequent percentage of tier 2 players on a team and having more teams increases the number of players of tier 2 status.
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  #72  
Old 11-06-17, 04:11 PM
getagrip getagrip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilsco View Post
Absolutely correct point - no actual evidence or confirmation of any error. My feeling is that even if there was a mistake OHSAA will not take any action.

The numbers are a bit curious. SCD has a Competitive Balance number of 44 with an enrollment of 154. By comparison, Dayton Christian has a CB number of 57 with an enrollment of 117, Cincinnati Christian has a CB number of 61 with an enrollment of 85 and CCD has a CB number of 60 with an enrollment of 130.

SCD also rosters a Varsity (24), JV A and JV B team. Conservative estimate would be between 40 and 50 kids rostered. Don't believe a lot of those kids went to 7th and 8th grade at Summit so most would have a CB factor of either 1 or 6
This seems to be much ado about nothing. Has anyone looked at the list of Catholic feeder schools for the Summit 'district'? There are 6 Catholic feeders, which means a tier 0 for any of those kids. I would say the majority of kids transferring into HS are from those schools (Villa, Pacelli, St Marys, plus 3 others) and the rest of the students entering in HS are majority from other Diocese of Cincinnati schools, which would be tier 1. Summit may not have as many tier 2 as people might fantasize, but I don't have a number.
Although Summit has an elementary, it is a similar situation to all the other Catholic high schools in Cincinnati, where it is commonplace for kids from many Parish elementaries to enroll.
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  #73  
Old 11-06-17, 05:03 PM
Nelym Nelym is offline
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Summit is listed as both Independent and Catholic. Both have different matrix for Competitive Balance. That was the issue from the beginning. Even though there is a chapel on campus where they hold catholic mass and the school was founded by nuns, some people want them to be only an independent school so those other parochial schools will count against them instead.
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  #74  
Old 11-06-17, 05:21 PM
TCSoup TCSoup is offline
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Competitive Balance 101
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  #75  
Old 11-06-17, 05:24 PM
TCSoup TCSoup is offline
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http://ohsaa.org/Portals/0/SchoolRes...Balance101.pdf
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  #76  
Old 11-06-17, 05:26 PM
TCSoup TCSoup is offline
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Above is the Link to Competitive Balance 101 although i wouldn't call it 101

Read the Multipliers
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  #77  
Old 11-06-17, 07:06 PM
Pitchperfect Pitchperfect is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCSoup View Post
Above is the Link to Competitive Balance 101 although i wouldn't call it 101

Read the Multipliers


Lets stop arguing the obvious and letís say next time we will try to count better. I donít want any tarnish on a program.


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  #78  
Old 11-06-17, 07:49 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCSoup View Post
Above is the Link to Competitive Balance 101 although i wouldn't call it 101

Read the Multipliers
I have many times. Have you?

Tier 1 multiplier is 1 for all sports.
Tier 2 multiplier varies between the sports based on how many divisions that sport has. In this case, soccer is 6.

You still sticking to the multiplier is the same for each tier in soccer?
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  #79  
Old 11-06-17, 07:51 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Pitchperfect View Post
Lets stop arguing the obvious and letís say next time we will try to count better. I donít want any tarnish on a program.


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I still don't believe they did anything wrong. They self-identified as Catholic. Others feel they are an independent private.

Great program. Great success.
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  #80  
Old 11-06-17, 08:23 PM
TickyTack TickyTack is offline
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The reality is that 50% of every incoming class is composed of kids from SCD and each class is 50/50 female-male. So....that leaves about 25 kids to define. Some donít play soccer and the vast majority come from defined feeder catholic programs. The real issue as stated previously is how u define the program. Catholic or independent snd based on the stated mission and curriculum this should not be a question.
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  #81  
Old 11-07-17, 12:24 AM
Pitchperfect Pitchperfect is offline
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Originally Posted by TickyTack View Post
The reality is that 50% of every incoming class is composed of kids from SCD and each class is 50/50 female-male. So....that leaves about 25 kids to define. Some donít play soccer and the vast majority come from defined feeder catholic programs. The real issue as stated previously is how u define the program. Catholic or independent snd based on the stated mission and curriculum this should not be a question.


I feel like Iím back in the Clinton era ďI did not have sexual relations....Ē


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  #82  
Old 11-07-17, 04:55 PM
TCSoup TCSoup is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
I have many times. Have you?

Tier 1 multiplier is 1 for all sports.
Tier 2 multiplier varies between the sports based on how many divisions that sport has. In this case, soccer is 6.

You still sticking to the multiplier is the same for each tier in soccer?
Thats what i've been saying.
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  #83  
Old 11-07-17, 07:23 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by TCSoup View Post
Thats what i've been saying.
Lol. No you haven't. You claimed the multiplier is 6 across the board for tier 1 and tier 2. You scroll up a little and re-read your posts.
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  #84  
Old 11-12-17, 01:02 AM
Kballer Kballer is offline
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The confusion is not Summits, they are a true Catholic school by OHSAA definition. The "independent" is a category given by the Archdioscese in describing their Catholic schools. This only means that they do not have a parish affiliation and are not managed by the Archdioscese. They are not an independent private school, they are a Catholic school and all OHSAA enrollment numbers should be counted as such.
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  #85  
Old 11-12-17, 11:31 AM
Dadforever Dadforever is offline
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I guess this thread is never going to die, after Summit has now won the State Championship again.

Oh well, everyone needs someone to call names

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  #86  
Old 11-12-17, 11:35 AM
Happygoluckky Happygoluckky is offline
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Congrats to Summit on a third straight state championship! Well done!
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  #87  
Old 11-12-17, 11:39 PM
Pitchperfect Pitchperfect is offline
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Originally Posted by Dadforever View Post
I guess this thread is never going to die, after Summit has now won the State Championship again.

Oh well, everyone needs someone to call names

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1 + 6 no use this rule for that. Letís begin again 1+1 :-). So beginning count again itís 1+1+6 wait use this different rule for that one. Ok begin again 1+1+1 look we are under by 1 again. Couldnít help it with all the math lessons above.

I agree their defense was their savior.


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