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  #121  
Old 04-21-18, 06:20 AM
bass10 bass10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
How many of the 15 kids on the roster would be enrolled at your private school if it did not have basketball?
zero
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  #122  
Old 04-21-18, 06:24 AM
bass10 bass10 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Since 80% of the public schools in Ohio have some form of open enrollment I would argue a "normal high school" are those that get their student athletes from more than one district.

Those that get them from within their district with a couple possible exceptions are not the norm.
For sake of your argument because I know the privates love to throw out the "open enrollment equalizer". Lets take some D1's, Stow, Green, North Canton, Cuyahoga Falls, Hudson, Wadsworth, Jackson. Can you or anybody tell me 2 open enrolled kids on their basketball teams?? I honestly don't know but I'd say maybe 2 but probably zero?
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  #123  
Old 04-21-18, 06:26 AM
bass10 bass10 is offline
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Originally Posted by SeeYaSometime View Post
This. /\ /\ /\

Bass10 has a very narrow view instead of the whole picture. Schools have evolved from the "our district only" model. Sign of the times. Can get with the program or get left behind. Eighty percent is a hefty majority.
Sounds good and fits perfectly for StV, but because 80% of the schools have OE doesn't mean they are getting athletes, unfortunately for privates biggest come back that's not what OE is about and is not the big equalizer you all pretend it to be.
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  #124  
Old 04-21-18, 06:48 AM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Since 80% of the public schools in Ohio have some form of open enrollment I would argue a "normal high school" are those that get their student athletes from more than one district.

Those that get them from within their district with a couple possible exceptions are not the norm.
Their is a big difference getting 1 or 2 kids who are OE and sit on the bench compared to a private school like a CCA or ASVM. OE schools that have a majority of athletes from another school district is a very small minority.
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  #125  
Old 04-21-18, 07:28 AM
Cougarfan22 Cougarfan22 is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
How many of the 15 kids on the roster would be enrolled at your private school if it did not have basketball?
How many of the 15 kids on the roster would be enrolled at your public school if it did not have basketball? Probably Zero. Students and parents love extra curricular activities, especially athletics.
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  #126  
Old 04-21-18, 08:36 AM
bass10 bass10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cougarfan22 View Post
How many of the 15 kids on the roster would be enrolled at your public school if it did not have basketball? Probably Zero. Students and parents love extra curricular activities, especially athletics.
I agree here but I think what he was trying to prove is that they are there for basketball not academics whatsoever.
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  #127  
Old 04-21-18, 08:39 AM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by Cougarfan22 View Post
How many of the 15 kids on the roster would be enrolled at your public school if it did not have basketball? Probably Zero. Students and parents love extra curricular activities, especially athletics.
My question was directed at ALL private schools, not just one. I accept and encourage the parents who want to benefit from a private education or an education with a religious backing to enroll and pay for their kids to receive it. In your question, if HS sports were to be removed from all schools in the state, the public halls would be even fuller than they are now.
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  #128  
Old 04-21-18, 09:22 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by bass10 View Post
For sake of your argument because I know the privates love to throw out the "open enrollment equalizer". Lets take some D1's, Stow, Green, North Canton, Cuyahoga Falls, Hudson, Wadsworth, Jackson. Can you or anybody tell me 2 open enrolled kids on their basketball teams?? I honestly don't know but I'd say maybe 2 but probably zero?
I don't live up that way. I don't know anything about those kids. Down the where I live (Dayton area) open enrollment is alive and well in all sports.
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  #129  
Old 04-21-18, 09:25 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
Their is a big difference getting 1 or 2 kids who are OE and sit on the bench compared to a private school like a CCA or ASVM. OE schools that have a majority of athletes from another school district is a very small minority.
How do you know they sit the bench? There is no requirement they sit the bench. The year tri village won state they had several OE students that contributed. Heck one starter lived in Indiana.
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  #130  
Old 04-21-18, 09:45 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
My question was directed at ALL private schools, not just one. I accept and encourage the parents who want to benefit from a private education or an education with a religious backing to enroll and pay for their kids to receive it. In your question, if HS sports were to be removed from all schools in the state, the public halls would be even fuller than they are now.
I realize you have a little bias against private, religious based schools but I think you be surprised about how many people actually attend those schools because of the spiritual side of their curriculum. Many are alumni themselves and want to continue the tradition.
That is again if you are considering ALL private schools. St. X has what.....1400 boys in the school? Iggy about the same. Moeller about 900? If they were there just for sports most aren't getting playing time. So why do they stay?

Your argument would hold more water if you stuck to couple of schools that always get mentioned in this debate and say they go there for sports only.
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  #131  
Old 04-21-18, 10:29 AM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
How do you know they sit the bench? There is no requirement they sit the bench. The year tri village won state they had several OE students that contributed. Heck one starter lived in Indiana.
Tri-Village is 80 %? Deer Park which is closed enrollment and maybe a few of the bigger OE public schools have a few transfers or OE students that might start but they are in the minority. For every Deer Park their are 10 Marion Locals or Fort Loramie's that still have a majority if not all of their starters that are "home grown".
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  #132  
Old 04-21-18, 10:47 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
Tri-Village is 80 %? Deer Park which is closed enrollment and maybe a few of the bigger OE public schools have a few transfers or OE students that might start but they are in the minority. For every Deer Park their are 10 Marion Locals or Fort Loramie's that still have a majority if not all of their starters that are "home grown".
No, tri village is not 80%. But then again neither is ML or FL.

http://www.ohsaa.org/Sports-Tourname...ll-Division-IV
http://www.ohsaa.org/Sports-Tourname...l-Division-III

Looks like a lot of teams have OE kids on their rosters. And there is no way to measure starters because for every ML or FL you name that has homegrown starters I can name an OE that has a non-local as a starter.
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  #133  
Old 04-21-18, 01:32 PM
Football Fan 1 Football Fan 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass10 View Post
For sake of your argument because I know the privates love to throw out the "open enrollment equalizer". Lets take some D1's, Stow, Green, North Canton, Cuyahoga Falls, Hudson, Wadsworth, Jackson. Can you or anybody tell me 2 open enrolled kids on their basketball teams?? I honestly don't know but I'd say maybe 2 but probably zero?
Why donít look at John Glennís 2016 D2 state championship and look at their roster and see where they came from? Open enrollment was an equalizer there.

Copley seemed to have some open enrollment this past season.

I can give you additional examples if youíd like
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  #134  
Old 04-21-18, 01:50 PM
Stirred not Shaken Stirred not Shaken is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
No, tri village is not 80%. But then again neither is ML or FL.

http://www.ohsaa.org/Sports-Tourname...ll-Division-IV
http://www.ohsaa.org/Sports-Tourname...l-Division-III

Looks like a lot of teams have OE kids on their rosters. And there is no way to measure starters because for every ML or FL you name that has homegrown starters I can name an OE that has a non-local as a starter.
To compare an OE school with 1 or 2 OE athletes on its roster to a private school is ridiculous. Plus some OE schools are adjacent counties some are are state - wide. However as Deer Park proved as a closed school district their is always a way to take " advantage " of the rules. However most public schools especially smaller publics are not going to bend the rules just to win a state championship.
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  #135  
Old 04-21-18, 02:30 PM
C'Town216 C'Town216 is offline
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Prime example on the football spectrum is what Rotsky does to get kids into his program.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  #136  
Old 04-21-18, 06:00 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Stirred not Shaken View Post
To compare an OE school with 1 or 2 OE athletes on its roster to a private school is ridiculous. Plus some OE schools are adjacent counties some are are state - wide. However as Deer Park proved as a closed school district their is always a way to take " advantage " of the rules. However most public schools especially smaller publics are not going to bend the rules just to win a state championship.
In basketball just a couple kids make a huge difference. Like 70% of public schools have statewide open enrollment and only about 10% are adjacent districts.

Yes, we all know deer park's story. Maybe because you live in MAC-land and we know things are pretty different up there but you seem to be giving public schools more credit that they probably deserve. Would they go to the lengths of deer Park? Most probably wouldn't but don't kid yourself that the smaller public schools don't benefit from OE in athletics. And don't kid yourself that the coaches don't welcome them with open arms either.
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  #137  
Old 04-22-18, 12:39 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
How many of the 15 kids on the roster would be enrolled at your private school if it did not have basketball?
You are talking about a very small % of the total school enrollment. Private schools need students to survive. There is several schools in NE Ohio competing for the same kids. Sure some kids attend a school for sports - it happens at public schools as well. Private schools do not however dictate policy or make it so the enrollment numbers are down just so they can be in lower athletic divisions - that is crazy. These schools would not risk being in the red or even closing just to compete in a lower division like many on here seem to think. Say a basketball program has 45 kids in it for 3 teams - that is only 10% of the enrollment at a school like VASJ. You think the operation of the school revolves around 10% of the enrollment. Schools like VASJ, Lake, Benny, NDCL and others would LOVE to have enough kids every year to be D1 without any CBP or funny math. The schools would gladly welcome more students and increased revenue in trade to compete at a higher level. The economy is tough and school is not getting any cheaper on the private side. It's harder and harder to keep your numbers up. That is why what is going on at VASJ is so impressive. The truth is when it's all said and done the vast majority of students at private schools are there for the education and don't even participate in any sports.
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  #138  
Old 04-22-18, 01:36 PM
D4fan D4fan is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
You are talking about a very small % of the total school enrollment. Private schools need students to survive. There is several schools in NE Ohio competing for the same kids. Sure some kids attend a school for sports - it happens at public schools as well. Private schools do not however dictate policy or make it so the enrollment numbers are down just so they can be in lower athletic divisions - that is crazy. These schools would not risk being in the red or even closing just to compete in a lower division like many on here seem to think. Say a basketball program has 45 kids in it for 3 teams - that is only 10% of the enrollment at a school like VASJ. You think the operation of the school revolves around 10% of the enrollment. Schools like VASJ, Lake, Benny, NDCL and others would LOVE to have enough kids every year to be D1 without any CBP or funny math. The schools would gladly welcome more students and increased revenue in trade to compete at a higher level. The economy is tough and school is not getting any cheaper on the private side. It's harder and harder to keep your numbers up. That is why what is going on at VASJ is so impressive. The truth is when it's all said and done the vast majority of students at private schools are there for the education and don't even participate in any sports.
The private schools I know have over a 90% participation rate in students doing at least one extracurricular sport. Guess SW Ohio is very different from NE. Maybe we need separate region tournaments and scratch the state title.
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  #139  
Old 04-22-18, 02:54 PM
Bball216 Bball216 is offline
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That is a ridiculously high number. Nowhere near that number. You have several kids that play 2 and 3 sports just so the school can field a team. In fact a majority of the kids DON'T play sports of any kind.
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  #140  
Old 04-22-18, 04:46 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
I realize you have a little bias against private, religious based schools but I think you be surprised about how many people actually attend those schools because of the spiritual side of their curriculum. Many are alumni themselves and want to continue the tradition.
That is again if you are considering ALL private schools. St. X has what.....1400 boys in the school? Iggy about the same. Moeller about 900? If they were there just for sports most aren't getting playing time. So why do they stay?

Your argument would hold more water if you stuck to couple of schools that always get mentioned in this debate and say they go there for sports only.
I have never said anything about every student at the school. My remarks are about the athletes on most rosters. Focus on the 15 varsity roster players.
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  #141  
Old 04-22-18, 05:34 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bball216 View Post
That is a ridiculously high number. Nowhere near that number. You have several kids that play 2 and 3 sports just so the school can field a team. In fact a majority of the kids DON'T play sports of any kind.
Again, all of the talk about rules and changing them is about the kids on the rosters and not the total enrollment.
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  #142  
Old 04-22-18, 05:46 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
I have never said anything about every student at the school. My remarks are about the athletes on most rosters. Focus on the 15 varsity roster players.
Because if I focus exclusively on my very narrow parameters, I can support my preconceived conclusions.

Last edited by Irish60; 04-22-18 at 06:30 PM.
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  #143  
Old 04-22-18, 05:50 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
I have never said anything about every student at the school. My remarks are about the athletes on most rosters. Focus on the 15 varsity roster players.
Your comment was if the all schools did not have athletics the halls at public schools would be more full than they already are. Clearly you were suggesting that the majority of kids attend private schools for sports and if they didn't exist at any schools in the state why would parents pay for a private education?

And 15 kids won't fill the halls much anyway.
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  #144  
Old 04-22-18, 07:48 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
Because if I focus exclusively on my very narrow parameters, I can support my preconceived conclusions.
Wrong. It's because the OHSAA does not care or have authority over a student at any school that is not on a roster.
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  #145  
Old 04-22-18, 07:57 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Your comment was if the all schools did not have athletics the halls at public schools would be more full than they already are. Clearly you were suggesting that the majority of kids attend private schools for sports and if they didn't exist at any schools in the state why would parents pay for a private education?

And 15 kids won't fill the halls much anyway.
What I clearly was suggesting is that EVERY private school has a portion of their rosters in maybe more than one sport that would not attend that private school if it did not offer sports. Those kids would then be at the schools based in their residence.
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  #146  
Old 04-22-18, 08:38 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
Wrong. It's because the OHSAA does not care or have authority over a student at any school that is not on a roster.
But they do take those kids into account in determining enrollment figures. You can't look at this in a vacuum. If your point is, "If a private school did not offer basketball, then kids who want to play basketball would not go to that private school."; then so what!?! Say, for example, that if Ellet or Firestone dropped their basketball programs, my guess is that the students who wanted to play basketball would find another public school to attend so they can play basketball. You can make up any hypothetical scenarios you want.
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  #147  
Old 04-22-18, 09:40 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
What I clearly was suggesting is that EVERY private school has a portion of their rosters in maybe more than one sport that would not attend that private school if it did not offer sports. Those kids would then be at the schools based in their residence.
Or maybe they would attend another private school that does offer sports. Or they would use OE to attend a public district that is not where they reside because that district has a better athletic program than their home residence.

You're acting like there are only two options.
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  #148  
Old 04-22-18, 10:04 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
But they do take those kids into account in determining enrollment figures. You can't look at this in a vacuum. If your point is, "If a private school did not offer basketball, then kids who want to play basketball would not go to that private school."; then so what!?! Say, for example, that if Ellet or Firestone dropped their basketball programs, my guess is that the students who wanted to play basketball would find another public school to attend so they can play basketball. You can make up any hypothetical scenarios you want.
Show me where someone has said that the Ellet or Firestone competitive balance number is high because they have kids one there roster that go to that school for the education. My hypothetical considers the false statement that athletes attend private school for the education. So I tossed out the question if they did not have sports would they attend? According to OHSAA they could still pay the tuition and get the education but play sports for their district school of residence.
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  #149  
Old 04-22-18, 10:06 PM
spirit454 spirit454 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Or maybe they would attend another private school that does offer sports. Or they would use OE to attend a public district that is not where they reside because that district has a better athletic program than their home residence.

You're acting like there are only two options.
I was not providing any options. I was specifically challenging the statement that most athletes attend private schools for the education. If all private schools offered a good education but no sports would the enrollment numbers be the same?
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  #150  
Old 04-22-18, 10:33 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by spirit454 View Post
I was not providing any options. I was specifically challenging the statement that most athletes attend private schools for the education. If all private schools offered a good education but no sports would the enrollment numbers be the same?
Of course not. And if public schools didn't offer sports their enrollment would not be the same either.

Really kind of a silly hypothetical scenario.
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